In this episode of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter speaks with Nicole Connell, an educator, mentor, and certified Educational Therapist in the Bay Area. Preferring the title “personal learning fairy godmother,” Nicole specializes in designing personalized education for homeschoolers, unschoolers, and families transitioning away from traditional schooling. Through her advocacy for perspective shifts in education and her girls’ empowerment groups, Nicole aims to support children and teens in discovering their unique brilliance and building their self-esteem and confidence.
Tune in to the episode to hear about:
Nicole’s Journey to Educational Therapy: Nicole shares her personal journey of realizing the toll of striving for perfect grades on her mental health and finding her passion for educational therapy.
Exploring Unschooling: Nicole explains unschooling as a form of homeschooling where the child’s own curriculum is tailored to their interests and needs, allowing them to lead their learning journey.
The Challenges of Leaving Traditional Education: Nicole discusses the struggles some children face in traditional schooling and the impact of leaving the system, highlighting the importance of addressing children’s well-being and vitality.
Empowering Kids: Nicole emphasizes the need to focus on children’s strengths and abilities, rather than just their challenges, to foster their self-esteem and confidence.
The Impact of Unschooling: Nicole shares the positive outcomes she’s witnessed in children who have left traditional education, including increased happiness, vitality, and creativity, despite the challenges involved.
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP® experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
Voiceover: Welcome to Stress-Free IEP®. You do not need to do it all alone with your host, Francis Shefter, principal of Shefter Law. You can get more details and catch prior episodes at www. Shefterlaw. com. The Stress-Free IEP® video podcast is also posted on YouTube and LinkedIn, and you can listen to episodes through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, Stitcher, and more. Now, here’s the host of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter.
Frances Shefter: Hello everyone and welcome to the show. Today’s guest is Nicole Connell. And to tell you a little bit about Nicole, she is an educator and a mentor in the Bay Area. And although she’s a certified educational therapist, she prefers the title Personal Learning Fairy Godmother, which I love.[00:01:00]
She loves supporting children and teens to see their unique brilliance and build their self esteem and confidence. She specializes in designing personalized education for homeschoolers, unschoolers, and families seeking to leave traditional education. She advocates for perspective and paradigm shifts in the educational realm.
She also offers girls empowerment groups. So Nicole, welcome to the show.
Nicole Connell: Thank you for having me.
Frances Shefter: So tell us a little bit more.
Frances Shefter: Like, how did you get into being a personal learning fairy godmother, which I absolutely love the name
Nicole Connell: kind of happened. I actually was incredibly good at school to the point where my mental health was suffering in my striving to get perfect grades all the time.
I got into the college I wanted to get into. And then I realized in college that I didn’t really know who I was or what I wanted because I was so used to. To playing the game of figuring out what other people [00:02:00] wanted from me. And, uh, over the course of exploring a lot of different, uh, careers in education, I really realized that I wanted to be this one-on-one role with kids so I could really get to know them.
And actually one of your guests, Marian Marshall. Um, who was on your show? She was in a newspaper ad about educational therapy and I saw this ad and I said, oh, that’s what I wanna do. Um, and it became this beautiful gift into walking with kids who had a very different experience in school than I did.
Very different treatment from the teachers and, and just seeing a, a different world. So yeah, that’s how I got into it.
Frances Shefter: It’s so interesting because it’s similar to my story in the sense of, but mine was different of what people thought I could do. So for me, like, I didn’t think I was smart enough to go to law school originally.
Um, so I got into what I do because I don’t want people to think they’re not smart enough. You know, who cares if you [00:03:00] have a disability? It’s okay. We all have our own channels of where we’re good. Um, so it’s, it’s interesting how different experiences can still kind of lead you down the same. path in a sense.
Um, that’s why it was second career for me for law school.
Frances Shefter: Um, so like, I know I’ve heard of unschooling, but I’m sure a lot of our listeners have not. So can you explain unschooling a little bit?
Nicole Connell: Yeah. So this is my interpretation. There’s lots of interpretations out there, but how I view it is I’m schooling as a form of homeschooling.
So a lot of homeschoolers will do the same curriculum that is done at school at home. Um, unschooling, which is also known as self directed learning, is basically your own curriculum for the child in front of you. So you really can let the child lead and you’re not following the standard curriculum. You can choose to go to community college classes or to do standardized curriculum, but, uh, the family is more in choice and the child is [00:04:00]
Frances Shefter: That, yeah, that sounds great.
Especially, like, I’m thinking about a lot of our kids on the spectrum with autistic burnout where, like, Even, you know, even them directing could be difficult, but like the unschooling, like to be forced to follow a curriculum, to me, if you choose to homeschool your child, why would you be doing the same curriculum, you know, that the regular school’s doing?
Other than the whole, you know, being at home and all that other stuff. But to me, like, the whole idea of homeschooling is to be able to do What works for you in the family? And I know, um, I know there’s a lot of websites out there, I know, and I’m trying to, I can’t remember the name, but there’s one website out there for people that homeschool that has, like, all the laws and what you have to do and can help with all of that stuff.
Um, so do you mainly work with, um, kids that are being homeschooled or unschooled?
Nicole Connell: It’s a bit of a mixture. I still do work with kids that are in school and helping them get through school.
Nicole Connell: But just [00:05:00] over the years, it actually all started with a 12 year old seven years ago who came to me. She refused to go to school.
I thought I was just going to try to find A different private school for her that would be more tolerable. Um, it became very clear that she was not forever returning to a traditional school. Um, and her, you know, her parents wanted support with unschooling. And so I stepped in and I sat down with her and she, uh, I asked her like, what do you want?
Like at your 12, what do you want for your education? And she looked at me and she said, I want my vitality back. Two things came up for me. One, you know, how wise for a 12 year old to use that word, right? Two, she is speaking to what I think a lot of kids maybe can’t language. Um, but I definitely see it in the Bay area is this level of burnout, like high levels of burnout in our youth.
Um, so it’s, it’s kind [00:06:00] of like, well, what’s the point of all of this? education if the Children are massively suffering and it’s not all Children, but if there are some Children who are really burnt out and struggling and school is a part of that, you know, like, what are the other options?
Frances Shefter: Yeah, no, that’s so true because it’s like, it’s hard.
Um, and I have this conversation with clients often or potential clients about how, you know, schools have to do an okay job. They don’t have to do the best job. Um, actually the Supreme Court said it this way of that. They don’t have to provide Cadillac. A Chevrolet is a good enough, you know, um, which has been expanded, expanded also, but like, that’s the thing is that they need to teach to the masses.
And for our kids with learning differences, it’s so, it doesn’t work sometimes. And it, even with all the special education supports and stuff, it’s just hard.
Frances Shefter: Um, so like what, what are the, some of the things that you wish people knew? Or [00:07:00] like what people need to start thinking about differently with learning differences?
Nicole Connell: I think so much of the focus is on what they can’t do, right? Even the languaging of, of what we call dyslexia, dysgraphia, attention deficit, hyperactive disorder, like those just words and themselves, those are a lot to put on kids. And, uh, I mean, that’s our current terminology. Um, but you know, they’re very one sided.
They’re only looking at what they can’t do. And we’re missing the wholeness of the child because there’s so many things that the child can do that often isn’t measured or valued in school. Uh, so yeah, I wish people could, you know, really emphasize both the kids tricky areas, um, and their areas of brilliance.
Frances Shefter: Right. I, I, you know, it’s, I, we’re so on the same page because I say that all the time with IEPs and difficult [00:08:00] of, you know, yes, the whole idea of an IEP is to build on the weaknesses, but when the present levels is supposed to be giving the positives and what can this child do, here are the weaknesses and now let’s build on what the child can do to bring up what the child can’t do.
Um, it’s still kind of that forcing, you have to be able to do this, you have to be able to do that. You have to be able to do this. Um, you know, like spelling, for example, that’s what I like to use because I am the worst speller in the world. I’ll flat out admit it, I was on law review in law school, which is, you know, top of the top, but I still can’t spell.
You know, my husband’s not a good speller either. So my poor kids, you know, my younger, my older one came home like, I just can’t do it. I’m like, honey, mommy can’t spell. Daddy can’t spell. Sorry, sweetie. You’re like, you’re not going to be able to do it and it’s okay. But it’s so frustrating to see how upset she gets because she’s not getting the straight A’s.
She’s not getting, even if she works and tries. Because that’s not something she can do [00:09:00] and in today’s world who you technically don’t need to know how to spell because spell check is everywhere. Um, so yeah, I just, um, it’s so true. Like how, how we can shift the school system to get to where we need them to be.
But that’s where it comes in of like, sometimes we can’t. Um, and I’ve definitely told potential clients before, like I can get you a perfect IEP. But it’s not going to do anything because we can’t force them to implement it, you know, like it’s legally, yes, they have to do it, but what do we, you know, it’s like, how do you stand over somebody and force them to do their job?
You can’t. Um, and unfortunately, that’s where we end. So then we have to look at what you want for your child. Now let’s reverse engineer it to how do we get there? And sometimes the unschooling is, is the answer.
Frances Shefter: Um, so like, what, what have you seen with children that have decided to leave the school system?[00:10:00]
How have you seen that work in real life?
Nicole Connell: Well, you know, it varies family to family in a different situation. Um, but the freedom that comes with it for a child to be who they are can feel really freeing. And it’s like, it’s, what I’ve gotten to see is I get to see them come back online. Right. So I used to teach kindergarten and those kids, they were so happy.
I taught their favorite day was garbage truck day, where literally the garbage truck would come and like pick up the garbage and they would run to the top of the play structure and scream garbage truck. They were so vital. They were so happy. Like that’s what I’m kind of referring to it as online. Right.
Um, But then as kids get older, there’s a lot of shutdown that can happen. And that vibrant child, you know, it’s like, where, you know, where are they? Are they smiling? Are they happy? You know, but to see [00:11:00] kids come back to themselves and have time to do the things that they love and to feel like they’re really heard, Um, you know, like the school system works for a lot of kids, uh, and for some kids, you know, especially the highly sensitive ones, they can internalize those messages, even if they don’t know what’s in the IEP and they don’t know, you know, kind of all the, all the testing results and they don’t know all those things.
They know, they feel like something is deeply wrong with them. And so when they can get out of that system, um, especially the sensitive ones, cause they can feel it, you know, they can feel how they’re perceived and treated in a, in a huge way. Um, and when they get out of that and they get to have a say, and it’s.
their kind of inner knowing that gets to lead the way. It’s just, it’s really beautiful to witness. And it’s not all I’m, I’m, [00:12:00] I’m making it sound all beautiful and easy. And it’s, it can be challenging, right? It can be challenging to leave. And there are things that you miss. You don’t get the same level of social interaction if you’re unschooling potentially, cause you’re not seeing the same people every day, usually.
Um, so it’s not all sunshine and roses, but there is this, this possibility that I’ve seen for kids to come back online.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. I mean, that’s so beautiful. And so, yeah, it’s so true. I’m just thinking about like kids that I’ve taught in the past and my own daughters, um, and, and how, you know, I say all the time, like, we don’t want to snuff that light.
And schools, unfortunately, do for the kids that don’t conform, you know? Um, and I know, like, I want to talk about, like, the naysayers, like, well, they’re never going to function in society if they don’t learn that they have to go to school, and they have to do this, and they have to do that. Um, so I’m sure there’s people out there like, oh, that, that’s ridiculous, you’re just letting your kids do whatever your kid [00:13:00] wants, and they’re never going to be, you know, Positive members of the society.
Like, what do you say to that?
Nicole Connell: Well, a couple of things. I think one is oftentimes the people that I’ve worked at with there, uh, at rock bottom. So there’s school refusal, massive, massive mental health crisis. Right. And it’s kind of like, if they’re not okay, what else matters? Right, right. We kind of have to tend to the basic okayness first.
Um, and it’s definitely not for everyone, right? It, it’s definitely like there’s risk involved. There’s risk in sending your child to school. There’s risk in taking this path. Um, but what I’ve seen is kind of when you’re at this rock bottom place. You kind of have to try anything. And the beauty that can come is there’s a lot of creativity that can open because now you’re thinking in different ways.
It’s not just, let’s get the kid back to school. It’s like, Oh, how are we going to return this child to wellness? And how are we going to help them get back online? So [00:14:00] that’s one scenario. Some people choose unschooling from the get go, right? Um, and there are people like Peter Gray and Blake Bowles. They both have books and they have a lot more, um, literature in this.
But there is definitely proof that people who do unschooling or self directed education, um, Can go on to college. They can go on to be entrepreneurs. Um, they can find their way. Um, like it’s not, I forget who said this, but I heard this somewhere that like, if we convinced everyone that you had to go to school to learn how to walk, That like, you know, then you could believe that, yeah, wait, I have to send my kid to daycare for them to learn how to walk, whereas like, you actually don’t have to send your kid to that, you know, just that analogy.
I forget who said that, um, but that really made me think it’s like, we think that this one pathway is the way, but there’s actually a lot of other ways. And if this one standardized pathway, um, is really [00:15:00] dimming the Kids lights and they’re not okay. Then like, you know, there, there are other pathways,
Frances Shefter: right?
And that’s something I talk to clients a lot about, um, is that. You know, they’re like, well, how am I going to do that? We can’t afford that, or this or that, and I’m like, what’s your child’s future worth, you know? You can’t put a price tag on it, unfortunately. Um, you know, and I, and I, again, like, I, I use my kids as examples all the time, especially my older one.
Um, who knows she’s different and she knows and she gets frustrated. She’s like, why can’t I be like everyone else? I’m like, because you’re unique and you’re you. Um, and it’s like, so what do we do? How do we find the right school? What do you know? Because, you know, we both work, we can’t homeschool, you know?
Um, so that, like, that always becomes a challenge, but, but the idea of having these kids, you know, have a place where they can succeed and feel successful. Um, so do you work with kids that are like in the, in the regular schools, help [00:16:00] them with that? And how, what does that look like?
Nicole Connell: I do. I don’t do as much of it anymore.
Um, but I definitely do. And my kind of number one that I’m always holding is a child’s self esteem. And. Trying to fill in the gaps of what they might not get at school and reflecting back to them, a different mirror of not just what they can’t do, but what they can do and how valuable it is. So that’s what I always orient around.
And within that I can help with school. I can help, you know, talk to teachers. I can help talk to parents. I can kind of do those traditional things, but I’m always holding this frame of how you are is is okay, good, perfect, amazing. Yes, there are challenges. Um, and you have so much to offer,
Frances Shefter: right? Yeah. I mean, and that’s, that’s again, like going back to the IEPs and going back to schooling [00:17:00] and stuff of like, why are we focusing so much on what our kids can’t do versus on what they can, you know, like forcing the public speaking or forcing somebody to write an essay instead of doing a public speech or doing a slideshow or, or showing.
You know, using their own creativity. to show their knowledge. Um, and I get it. Schools can’t always do that, you know, especially the public school system because it’s just, you know, teachers have a hard enough job. I know I was, you know, a teacher for seven years. I get it. Um, but there’s got to be something different, you know, we’ve got to help build these kids self esteem and, and, Take the schools back and look at what’s more important here, because as you said, with mental health, like, if a child’s mental health is not there, they’re not available for learning, and it doesn’t matter what you teach.
They’re not going to absorb any of it. And it’s just, I hate saying a waste of time, but it is. Going to school is a waste of time, because they’re not learning anything, they’re not absorbing anything. They’re trying [00:18:00] to just function in society. At that point.
Nicole Connell: And they’re potentially absorbing a lot of negative messages and feeling incapable.
And kids really need chances to feel capable. But you know, it’s like what I often tell kids, I’m like, look, there’s all this intelligence. There’s so many different kinds of smartness. School only cares about these, this, this part of it. And there’s all this other intelligence, all like, it’s all, all these different things.
And if school is only hitting on this very narrow portion of intelligence. And that happens to be where those kids tricky areas are. They’re going to get the message every day that they’re not smart. Which they absolutely are smart and intelligent and it breaks my heart because as communities we lose out on all of their gifts When they’re feeling demoralized every day,
Frances Shefter: right?
And that’s what happened to me. I didn’t think I was smart I didn’t think I was smart enough to go to law school And I went to teaching and then you know turns out it was apparently, you know, [00:19:00] i’m doing pretty good now Um, but yeah, I
Nicole Connell: feel like K to 12, like there’s almost this feeling of like, okay, let’s just, let’s try to get them through K to 12 with as much of their self esteem intact.
And then a lot of times, you know, kiddos with learning differences can go on and specialize in something that they really care about in college. And for some, not all. Um, kids, like, college can feel better than K to 12 because it’s more specific than this generalized knowledge, and it could translate into what they actually, like, want to do on a day to day basis versus, like, general ed.
Frances Shefter: Right. And that’s, you know, self esteem is such a huge thing and the mind shift and just reminds me of my business coach who, you know, says, like, you know, we figure stuff out. Like, you know, that’s, that’s what we learned in law school. You know, we learned how to figure stuff out. And so I’m thinking about like the kids in K through 12 that, you know, don’t have the self esteem that think they can’t, they can’t, they can’t are never going to [00:20:00] learn how they can without having that like, Hey, you’re right.
You can’t do that right now, but guess what? When you were born, you couldn’t talk or walk and you’re doing that now, right? So let’s, you know, let’s build on that. What can you do? And let’s, let’s practice it and keep going and, and get, I can’t stand, well, I can’t, you know, get that can’t out of it. You know, like, like you can.
Whether you can’t or you can, you know, whether you say you can’t or you can, you’re right.
Nicole Connell: And I think the piece too with school is meaning, right? A lot of kids maybe don’t see the meaning in some of the things that they are asked to do. Um, for example, you know, there’s a large population of kiddos who just may never memorize 7 times 8.
Right doesn’t. Right. They just, but what is their job? What is their job? You know, like what is maybe third grade or, you know, I don’t know, second grade, depending on what school their job is to memorize those math [00:21:00] facts and some kids just can’t. Yeah. And you know, is there specific meaning in memorizing that, or could they use a calculator?
Frances Shefter: I still use my fingers, but I still use my fingers, you know, it’s okay because that’s not, I’m not a numbers person, you know, um, and, and you’re right. It’s, it’s, you’re forced to learn how to spell, to learn how to memorize facts, to learn how to do this, to learn how to do that. I do have to say, at least in Montgomery County, the new, I hated it at first, the new Eureka, uh, Um, the way they’re teaching math now it’s like instead of the carrying the one they decompose a 10 which is totally You know, but now that I see my kids as they’re getting older my older one is in fourth grade Um, and I see her thinking process when it’s coming with math.
It’s a lot more, um, a lot deeper, like a lot more deeper understanding of how numbers work [00:22:00] because of the way they were taught, which is interesting. Um, so I love that they switched that, but it’s still like, you know what, if you’re not a math person, you’re not a math person, and that’s okay. You know, okay, so you’re not going to be a bookkeeper or an accountant.
That’s okay, you know. Um, yeah, so what, like, I mean, so many kids have such negative experiences and get so down and not wanting to go to school. Like, what are some things that parents can do to help their kids, like, get through those negative experiences?
Nicole Connell: I think the first is just develop a super deep understanding of your kids experience.
I think that’s the first step. Not, not just surface level, like, Hey, I was school. Okay. Great. Bye. You know, but like, what does it really like to be you? And, and this might come from asking your child explicitly, this might come from really just imagining and putting yourself in your kid’s shoes. Shoes, [00:23:00] but just getting really clear, like, wow, what is my child enduring every day?
Because I think often as adults, we want to rush to the solution, like, okay, you’re struggling, let’s fix it. And that comes from such a beautiful place. Cause we, we want to help the kids in our lives, but that felt emotional experience that kids can often feel really alone in if we skip over the deep empathy for what it’s like to be them.
And then we can’t really attune to them and we can’t really be like, you’re right. That sucks. You know, one of my favorite questions is I’ll ask, uh, you know, what grade would you give your teacher? You know, what grade would you give your school? And so like flipping a little bit of like the, the power dynamics of like, well, what, you know, cause I think there’s almost this bias of adults kind of will often align just with the school system.
Well, your teacher said this. Like, right. They said this. Well, [00:24:00] yeah, take that information. It’s valuable and get really curious. What does your kid say? Oh, your kid is giving your teacher a D because the teacher is saying this every day to him. Okay. Right. I think that level of understanding and empathy, number one for their experience, and then kind of perspective ship of like, you’re right.
That is, that isn’t fair. That is messed up. That I think can just really help the kid really feel seen. Cause at the end of the day, we all want to feel seen and heard and gotten right. Behavior, right. To me, behavior is information. So your child could be doing all sorts of stuff in the classroom. Right.
That’s easy to orient to like, well, the teacher said this, the teacher, like, well, what’s going on? Like, what are you trying to communicate that you’re not able to with words? So that I can understand where you’re coming from. Oh, like you feel really frustrated because [00:25:00] you can’t read and everyone else in the class can read and someone’s making fun of you at recess.
Frances Shefter: Right.
Nicole Connell: I could, I could see why you might want to throw a book. Now we don’t want to, you know, throwing things is not always the answer, but that actually makes a lot of sense about why you do that.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. It’s, you know, back from my teaching days, I’ve always said, um, there’s two reasons kids misbehave. One is that they’re so far behind, they don’t know what’s going on and they don’t want anybody to know.
So they’re hiding it. Or they’re so far ahead. They’re bored out of their minds, and so they’re doing something to give them reason for being there. Um, and it’s like if we start looking at that, it’s just, you know, our society so much like puts a ba you know, Oh, they’re misbehaving, let’s put a functional behavior assessment, let’s do a behavior intervention plan, let’s do this.
Like, but let’s look under, like why, where is, [00:26:00] what’s causing the misbehavior? Because if you get to that, you’re not gonna have the behavior issues. Thanks. You know, I had one client that, you know, had the behavior issues and we discovered he was bored and we skipped him up, you know, a couple of grades in one subject and guess what?
didn’t have the behavior issues in that class anymore because he was being stimulated the way he needed to be. Um, and you know, and like that’s so, it’s so true of like, let’s see, and I, and I don’t like putting more on teachers because we know it’s hard enough, but like that’s where I think our society and school systems fail our kids is that instead of bringing in behaviorists, It’s a way of kind of like, you know, disciplining, uh, teachers, um, or you know, bringing in psychologists, or bringing in specialists to really look at what’s going on.
We’re so quick to punish, to, to discipline, to, you know, let’s suspend them, let’s put them in school suspension. Let’s, you know, do a behavior plan. We need to change that behavior, like, but why? Like what’s, what’s that underneath, right? [00:27:00]
Nicole Connell: Well, then what happens is the child can internalize that they’re bad.
Yep. Right, because even if they don’t know what’s going on in that meeting, you know, down the hall, or they don’t know what’s in the behavior plan, like, they know something’s up.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, they do. And then that’s the worst, just because once you get that in your head, I know, like, from my Way Back When days, but like, you know, once you think, I’m a bad kid, Then you’re going to start acting that way all the time, because that’s what you identify with.
Right. And to get out of that, I can imagine it’s gotta be, you know, hard because just because one person said you are, it doesn’t mean you are. And you can prove them wrong, you know, it’s so heartbreaking seeing that.
Frances Shefter: Um, so I know you were saying you do girl empowerment groups, like what does that look like?
What do you have going on with that?
Nicole Connell: Yeah, well, I think one of the biggest things that I see kids missing is autonomy. A place to feel like in charge of [00:28:00] themselves and also to feel capable. So I think it’s been about five years now since I’ve been doing this. Uh, I just had this vision for girls to actually lead, not me teach them leadership.
I mean, I do in an indirect way for them to get actual time to be in charge. So they get time to be in charge of the whole group and they lead. pretty much anything they want. Um, I like to joke. I’m like, you can do anything. Just no crimes. Okay. Like we’re not committing any crimes. Okay. Right. Um, so yeah, they lead whatever they want and the rest of the group, you know, participates.
And then at the end we share appreciations. And so they’re able to highlight things that school doesn’t necessarily, um, teach. Or, or, you know, or just put attention on. Um, and then it culminates in the girls leading an online retreat for their parents. So they come together and then they lead, um, something really, it’s really always fun and like [00:29:00] sweet, uh, for the parents and it’s fun for the parents to be in the other role and just, you know, watch their child be in charge.
Um, yeah. So that has been a really fun thing that I’ve added over the years.
Frances Shefter: That is awesome. Yeah, like it’s, I think about Girl Scouts are, you know, my girls are in Girl Scouts and we do that. And we’re the co troop leader and I are slowly stepping back and letting like the fourth grader start teaching because we have a multi age group.
We have kindergarten through fourth. So now we’re like taking that step back and letting the fourth graders take over and then run and play in the meetings because That’s their growth, you know, and then we can relax a little bit. We don’t have to do it all, you know, totally.
Nicole Connell: And those opportunities don’t often exist in our current school system.
But what’s tricky is, um, so my girls group is for ages 10 to 14. And during that age, It’s like, I feel like girls, it’s, it’s a little similar to almost like the toddler years, right? Like their power is coming online. Then they’re like, Ooh, you know, but there’s not a healthy outlet [00:30:00] for it often.
Frances Shefter: Right.
Nicole Connell: You know?
So I know for me, it would kind of, it came out sideways when I was a preteen. So it’s like, where, yeah, where are different opportunities in the community where you can step into your leadership and step into your power and be in charge?
Frances Shefter: Right. Yeah. It’s so important, which again, is like bringing in the strengths and looking at what you can do and how you can do things.
Um, that’s so awesome. And so, so what do you, I, so I know you’re in the Bay area. Do you do online? Do you only do people in the Bay area? Like how, what is your client base? What is, What does that look like?
Nicole Connell: Yeah. I work with people virtually, um, and in person. Got it.
Frances Shefter: So you can, you can, do you do nationwide or do you just focus on the Bay Area?
Nicole Connell: Yeah, no, I’ve worked with someone in New York City before and it’s, it’s always fun just, um, when it’s the right fit. Um, but it’s a long distance. Right. Maybe they can’t find someone where they are. Who’s. [00:31:00] Philosophy is kind of what they’re looking for. So yeah, I’ll do, yeah, nation nationwide.
Frances Shefter: I love how you say that the right fit.
Cause that’s one of the things that I also talk about often is that, um, it’s not always the right fit, you know, and that’s, and that’s okay. There’s nothing wrong with either person. Um, it’s just not, it’s not the right fit. They don’t work well. And, um, somebody told me, I mean, years ago, um, It was, he actually put it with dating, um, of like when you go shopping for a shirt, because I had just broken up with a boyfriend and I was a mess and, um, he said when you go shopping for a shirt and you see like the most perfect shirt in the world and it’s like the perfect shirt and you put it on and it just looks horrible, absolutely awful.
Is there anything wrong with the shirt? No. Is there anything wrong with you? No. It’s just not a good fit. And I wish so many professionals, I know, I mean the better professionals know, like hey, this isn’t working, let’s find you somebody [00:32:00] that it can work with. Because it’s, if you continue a relationship, a professional relationship with somebody that’s not working, you’re doing more damage than good.
Right. Because now
Nicole Connell: a lot of times the parents pick out the shirt, right? It’s the parents. And, um, a lot of times it’s very aligned with the child. Um, but not always. And so I always set up the first initial session with consent. I’m like, look, this first initial session is for you, the child, the teen to get to know me and hear about what we might be able to do together.
And if at the end of this, you were a firm, no, and you just know, this is not the right fit for you. Like, amazing. Like, I want you to, to know that. And if you’re a maybe, then we can try, we can see. And if you’re a yes, great. Um, but I just, yeah, it doesn’t really work if the child or teen doesn’t want to be there.
Um, and it, you know, if it’s not the right fit.
Frances Shefter: Right. [00:33:00] Yeah. And I mean, there’s also a difference between a child not wanting to be there, not wanting to do it versus just, they don’t want to be there with that person. Right, and that, that’s the key to figure out, um, which it is and find the right thing, which goes back to listening to our children and what they want.
Because again, like if you’re forcing them to do, like you’re forcing them to do something else and you’re forcing them to do this, it’s not, it’s not going to help in the long run. Um, you know, there’s, there’s so much, I’m just thinking about like the parenting philosophies of like, well they have to do what they have to do because I’m the parent and they’re the child and that’s the way it’s always been done.
Oh yeah, that’s not working in today’s world. Right? Definitely not. So why, like, If parents, you know, are, are listeners watching the show or listening to the show, like, what are some things that they can look for of knowing, like, Hey, I need to reach out to Nicole. Like, she might be able to talk to me. Like, what are some red flags or [00:34:00] signs that they might need to come talk to you about some things?
Nicole Connell: Uh, if you’re noticing that school isn’t working for your child. Um, I love this, this kind of reframe of like I wrote this article called when school stops working for your child versus like the other way around. So if your child’s refusing to go to school, if your child hates school, if it’s even if there may be going, but it feels like you’re noticing some harm happening in their self esteem or however it might look, um, just to kind of see, like, what are the options?
Thank you Do you want to pursue something alternative or is it a situation that with some outside support school can be tolerable? Because there definitely are those kids. Not all kids need to leave the school system. Right. Um, yeah, just school isn’t quite right and uh, parents are wanting their child to experience vitality.
and wanting their [00:35:00] child wellness. Um, anything ar or not capable. Um, all t anxiety around school. Th And families are wanting to maybe do a homeschooling or unschooling approach, um, but need some outside support. Um, that’s something that I could help with too.
Frances Shefter: That is so awesome. So I hope our listeners are listening and, and might have some ideas.
And so how, I know we’re going to have it all in the show notes, but how can people get in touch with you? Like what’s the best way to reach you?
Nicole Connell: The best way is my website, which is just www.nicoleconnell.com. Um, and you can send me a message there. Awesome.
Frances Shefter: This has been so awesome. Um, thank you so much, Nicole.
This is like, I love like, it’s so funny because I, I say this all the time is that, you know, I’ve had educational, you know, um, therapists on [00:36:00] the show and, um, every time it’s something different. And that goes back to the fit. Is it a good fit? Because each of you have a different philosophy in a different way.
And what works for one doesn’t work for another. And that’s why like I love having lots of different people in the same profession because it’s like, Oh, look, wait, this person does it this way. Not that way, and that way doesn’t work, but this way might, and you know, it’s so awesome. So, thank you so much for being here and sharing all of your words of wisdom.
Nicole Connell: Thank you for having me.
Voiceover: You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEP®, with your host, Frances Shefter. Remember, you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through ShefterLaw. com, where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews. Comments and sharing the show with others through YouTube, LinkedIn, Apple [00:37:00] podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, and more.
The Personal Learning Fairy Godmother, Nicole Connell
Stress-Free IEP® with Frances Shefter, Episode 52
In this episode of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter speaks with Nicole Connell, an educator, mentor, and certified Educational Therapist in the Bay Area. Preferring the title “personal learning fairy godmother,” Nicole specializes in designing personalized education for homeschoolers, unschoolers, and families transitioning away from traditional schooling. Through her advocacy for perspective shifts in education and her girls’ empowerment groups, Nicole aims to support children and teens in discovering their unique brilliance and building their self-esteem and confidence.
Tune in to the episode to hear about:
Learn more about Nicole Connell:
Read the entire transcript of this interview below.
View the previous episode with Marion Marshall referenced during this episode: https://shefterlaw.com/2023/12/teaching-kids-how-to-learn-with-marion-marshall/
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Stress-Free IEP®:
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP® experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
Watch more episodes of Stress-Free IEP®:
Connect and learn more from your host, Frances Shefter:
Read the whole transcript here:
Voiceover: Welcome to Stress-Free IEP®. You do not need to do it all alone with your host, Francis Shefter, principal of Shefter Law. You can get more details and catch prior episodes at www. Shefterlaw. com. The Stress-Free IEP® video podcast is also posted on YouTube and LinkedIn, and you can listen to episodes through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, Stitcher, and more. Now, here’s the host of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter.
Frances Shefter: Hello everyone and welcome to the show. Today’s guest is Nicole Connell. And to tell you a little bit about Nicole, she is an educator and a mentor in the Bay Area. And although she’s a certified educational therapist, she prefers the title Personal Learning Fairy Godmother, which I love.[00:01:00]
She loves supporting children and teens to see their unique brilliance and build their self esteem and confidence. She specializes in designing personalized education for homeschoolers, unschoolers, and families seeking to leave traditional education. She advocates for perspective and paradigm shifts in the educational realm.
She also offers girls empowerment groups. So Nicole, welcome to the show.
Nicole Connell: Thank you for having me.
Frances Shefter: So tell us a little bit more.
Frances Shefter: Like, how did you get into being a personal learning fairy godmother, which I absolutely love the name
Nicole Connell: kind of happened. I actually was incredibly good at school to the point where my mental health was suffering in my striving to get perfect grades all the time.
I got into the college I wanted to get into. And then I realized in college that I didn’t really know who I was or what I wanted because I was so used to. To playing the game of figuring out what other people [00:02:00] wanted from me. And, uh, over the course of exploring a lot of different, uh, careers in education, I really realized that I wanted to be this one-on-one role with kids so I could really get to know them.
And actually one of your guests, Marian Marshall. Um, who was on your show? She was in a newspaper ad about educational therapy and I saw this ad and I said, oh, that’s what I wanna do. Um, and it became this beautiful gift into walking with kids who had a very different experience in school than I did.
Very different treatment from the teachers and, and just seeing a, a different world. So yeah, that’s how I got into it.
Frances Shefter: It’s so interesting because it’s similar to my story in the sense of, but mine was different of what people thought I could do. So for me, like, I didn’t think I was smart enough to go to law school originally.
Um, so I got into what I do because I don’t want people to think they’re not smart enough. You know, who cares if you [00:03:00] have a disability? It’s okay. We all have our own channels of where we’re good. Um, so it’s, it’s interesting how different experiences can still kind of lead you down the same. path in a sense.
Um, that’s why it was second career for me for law school.
Frances Shefter: Um, so like, I know I’ve heard of unschooling, but I’m sure a lot of our listeners have not. So can you explain unschooling a little bit?
Nicole Connell: Yeah. So this is my interpretation. There’s lots of interpretations out there, but how I view it is I’m schooling as a form of homeschooling.
So a lot of homeschoolers will do the same curriculum that is done at school at home. Um, unschooling, which is also known as self directed learning, is basically your own curriculum for the child in front of you. So you really can let the child lead and you’re not following the standard curriculum. You can choose to go to community college classes or to do standardized curriculum, but, uh, the family is more in choice and the child is [00:04:00]
Frances Shefter: That, yeah, that sounds great.
Especially, like, I’m thinking about a lot of our kids on the spectrum with autistic burnout where, like, Even, you know, even them directing could be difficult, but like the unschooling, like to be forced to follow a curriculum, to me, if you choose to homeschool your child, why would you be doing the same curriculum, you know, that the regular school’s doing?
Other than the whole, you know, being at home and all that other stuff. But to me, like, the whole idea of homeschooling is to be able to do What works for you in the family? And I know, um, I know there’s a lot of websites out there, I know, and I’m trying to, I can’t remember the name, but there’s one website out there for people that homeschool that has, like, all the laws and what you have to do and can help with all of that stuff.
Um, so do you mainly work with, um, kids that are being homeschooled or unschooled?
Nicole Connell: It’s a bit of a mixture. I still do work with kids that are in school and helping them get through school.
Nicole Connell: But just [00:05:00] over the years, it actually all started with a 12 year old seven years ago who came to me. She refused to go to school.
I thought I was just going to try to find A different private school for her that would be more tolerable. Um, it became very clear that she was not forever returning to a traditional school. Um, and her, you know, her parents wanted support with unschooling. And so I stepped in and I sat down with her and she, uh, I asked her like, what do you want?
Like at your 12, what do you want for your education? And she looked at me and she said, I want my vitality back. Two things came up for me. One, you know, how wise for a 12 year old to use that word, right? Two, she is speaking to what I think a lot of kids maybe can’t language. Um, but I definitely see it in the Bay area is this level of burnout, like high levels of burnout in our youth.
Um, so it’s, it’s kind [00:06:00] of like, well, what’s the point of all of this? education if the Children are massively suffering and it’s not all Children, but if there are some Children who are really burnt out and struggling and school is a part of that, you know, like, what are the other options?
Frances Shefter: Yeah, no, that’s so true because it’s like, it’s hard.
Um, and I have this conversation with clients often or potential clients about how, you know, schools have to do an okay job. They don’t have to do the best job. Um, actually the Supreme Court said it this way of that. They don’t have to provide Cadillac. A Chevrolet is a good enough, you know, um, which has been expanded, expanded also, but like, that’s the thing is that they need to teach to the masses.
And for our kids with learning differences, it’s so, it doesn’t work sometimes. And it, even with all the special education supports and stuff, it’s just hard.
Frances Shefter: Um, so like what, what are the, some of the things that you wish people knew? Or [00:07:00] like what people need to start thinking about differently with learning differences?
Nicole Connell: I think so much of the focus is on what they can’t do, right? Even the languaging of, of what we call dyslexia, dysgraphia, attention deficit, hyperactive disorder, like those just words and themselves, those are a lot to put on kids. And, uh, I mean, that’s our current terminology. Um, but you know, they’re very one sided.
They’re only looking at what they can’t do. And we’re missing the wholeness of the child because there’s so many things that the child can do that often isn’t measured or valued in school. Uh, so yeah, I wish people could, you know, really emphasize both the kids tricky areas, um, and their areas of brilliance.
Frances Shefter: Right. I, I, you know, it’s, I, we’re so on the same page because I say that all the time with IEPs and difficult [00:08:00] of, you know, yes, the whole idea of an IEP is to build on the weaknesses, but when the present levels is supposed to be giving the positives and what can this child do, here are the weaknesses and now let’s build on what the child can do to bring up what the child can’t do.
Um, it’s still kind of that forcing, you have to be able to do this, you have to be able to do that. You have to be able to do this. Um, you know, like spelling, for example, that’s what I like to use because I am the worst speller in the world. I’ll flat out admit it, I was on law review in law school, which is, you know, top of the top, but I still can’t spell.
You know, my husband’s not a good speller either. So my poor kids, you know, my younger, my older one came home like, I just can’t do it. I’m like, honey, mommy can’t spell. Daddy can’t spell. Sorry, sweetie. You’re like, you’re not going to be able to do it and it’s okay. But it’s so frustrating to see how upset she gets because she’s not getting the straight A’s.
She’s not getting, even if she works and tries. Because that’s not something she can do [00:09:00] and in today’s world who you technically don’t need to know how to spell because spell check is everywhere. Um, so yeah, I just, um, it’s so true. Like how, how we can shift the school system to get to where we need them to be.
But that’s where it comes in of like, sometimes we can’t. Um, and I’ve definitely told potential clients before, like I can get you a perfect IEP. But it’s not going to do anything because we can’t force them to implement it, you know, like it’s legally, yes, they have to do it, but what do we, you know, it’s like, how do you stand over somebody and force them to do their job?
You can’t. Um, and unfortunately, that’s where we end. So then we have to look at what you want for your child. Now let’s reverse engineer it to how do we get there? And sometimes the unschooling is, is the answer.
Frances Shefter: Um, so like, what, what have you seen with children that have decided to leave the school system?[00:10:00]
How have you seen that work in real life?
Nicole Connell: Well, you know, it varies family to family in a different situation. Um, but the freedom that comes with it for a child to be who they are can feel really freeing. And it’s like, it’s, what I’ve gotten to see is I get to see them come back online. Right. So I used to teach kindergarten and those kids, they were so happy.
I taught their favorite day was garbage truck day, where literally the garbage truck would come and like pick up the garbage and they would run to the top of the play structure and scream garbage truck. They were so vital. They were so happy. Like that’s what I’m kind of referring to it as online. Right.
Um, But then as kids get older, there’s a lot of shutdown that can happen. And that vibrant child, you know, it’s like, where, you know, where are they? Are they smiling? Are they happy? You know, but to see [00:11:00] kids come back to themselves and have time to do the things that they love and to feel like they’re really heard, Um, you know, like the school system works for a lot of kids, uh, and for some kids, you know, especially the highly sensitive ones, they can internalize those messages, even if they don’t know what’s in the IEP and they don’t know, you know, kind of all the, all the testing results and they don’t know all those things.
They know, they feel like something is deeply wrong with them. And so when they can get out of that system, um, especially the sensitive ones, cause they can feel it, you know, they can feel how they’re perceived and treated in a, in a huge way. Um, and when they get out of that and they get to have a say, and it’s.
their kind of inner knowing that gets to lead the way. It’s just, it’s really beautiful to witness. And it’s not all I’m, I’m, [00:12:00] I’m making it sound all beautiful and easy. And it’s, it can be challenging, right? It can be challenging to leave. And there are things that you miss. You don’t get the same level of social interaction if you’re unschooling potentially, cause you’re not seeing the same people every day, usually.
Um, so it’s not all sunshine and roses, but there is this, this possibility that I’ve seen for kids to come back online.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. I mean, that’s so beautiful. And so, yeah, it’s so true. I’m just thinking about like kids that I’ve taught in the past and my own daughters, um, and, and how, you know, I say all the time, like, we don’t want to snuff that light.
And schools, unfortunately, do for the kids that don’t conform, you know? Um, and I know, like, I want to talk about, like, the naysayers, like, well, they’re never going to function in society if they don’t learn that they have to go to school, and they have to do this, and they have to do that. Um, so I’m sure there’s people out there like, oh, that, that’s ridiculous, you’re just letting your kids do whatever your kid [00:13:00] wants, and they’re never going to be, you know, Positive members of the society.
Like, what do you say to that?
Nicole Connell: Well, a couple of things. I think one is oftentimes the people that I’ve worked at with there, uh, at rock bottom. So there’s school refusal, massive, massive mental health crisis. Right. And it’s kind of like, if they’re not okay, what else matters? Right, right. We kind of have to tend to the basic okayness first.
Um, and it’s definitely not for everyone, right? It, it’s definitely like there’s risk involved. There’s risk in sending your child to school. There’s risk in taking this path. Um, but what I’ve seen is kind of when you’re at this rock bottom place. You kind of have to try anything. And the beauty that can come is there’s a lot of creativity that can open because now you’re thinking in different ways.
It’s not just, let’s get the kid back to school. It’s like, Oh, how are we going to return this child to wellness? And how are we going to help them get back online? So [00:14:00] that’s one scenario. Some people choose unschooling from the get go, right? Um, and there are people like Peter Gray and Blake Bowles. They both have books and they have a lot more, um, literature in this.
But there is definitely proof that people who do unschooling or self directed education, um, Can go on to college. They can go on to be entrepreneurs. Um, they can find their way. Um, like it’s not, I forget who said this, but I heard this somewhere that like, if we convinced everyone that you had to go to school to learn how to walk, That like, you know, then you could believe that, yeah, wait, I have to send my kid to daycare for them to learn how to walk, whereas like, you actually don’t have to send your kid to that, you know, just that analogy.
I forget who said that, um, but that really made me think it’s like, we think that this one pathway is the way, but there’s actually a lot of other ways. And if this one standardized pathway, um, is really [00:15:00] dimming the Kids lights and they’re not okay. Then like, you know, there, there are other pathways,
Frances Shefter: right?
And that’s something I talk to clients a lot about, um, is that. You know, they’re like, well, how am I going to do that? We can’t afford that, or this or that, and I’m like, what’s your child’s future worth, you know? You can’t put a price tag on it, unfortunately. Um, you know, and I, and I, again, like, I, I use my kids as examples all the time, especially my older one.
Um, who knows she’s different and she knows and she gets frustrated. She’s like, why can’t I be like everyone else? I’m like, because you’re unique and you’re you. Um, and it’s like, so what do we do? How do we find the right school? What do you know? Because, you know, we both work, we can’t homeschool, you know?
Um, so that, like, that always becomes a challenge, but, but the idea of having these kids, you know, have a place where they can succeed and feel successful. Um, so do you work with kids that are like in the, in the regular schools, help [00:16:00] them with that? And how, what does that look like?
Nicole Connell: I do. I don’t do as much of it anymore.
Um, but I definitely do. And my kind of number one that I’m always holding is a child’s self esteem. And. Trying to fill in the gaps of what they might not get at school and reflecting back to them, a different mirror of not just what they can’t do, but what they can do and how valuable it is. So that’s what I always orient around.
And within that I can help with school. I can help, you know, talk to teachers. I can help talk to parents. I can kind of do those traditional things, but I’m always holding this frame of how you are is is okay, good, perfect, amazing. Yes, there are challenges. Um, and you have so much to offer,
Frances Shefter: right? Yeah. I mean, and that’s, that’s again, like going back to the IEPs and going back to schooling [00:17:00] and stuff of like, why are we focusing so much on what our kids can’t do versus on what they can, you know, like forcing the public speaking or forcing somebody to write an essay instead of doing a public speech or doing a slideshow or, or showing.
You know, using their own creativity. to show their knowledge. Um, and I get it. Schools can’t always do that, you know, especially the public school system because it’s just, you know, teachers have a hard enough job. I know I was, you know, a teacher for seven years. I get it. Um, but there’s got to be something different, you know, we’ve got to help build these kids self esteem and, and, Take the schools back and look at what’s more important here, because as you said, with mental health, like, if a child’s mental health is not there, they’re not available for learning, and it doesn’t matter what you teach.
They’re not going to absorb any of it. And it’s just, I hate saying a waste of time, but it is. Going to school is a waste of time, because they’re not learning anything, they’re not absorbing anything. They’re trying [00:18:00] to just function in society. At that point.
Nicole Connell: And they’re potentially absorbing a lot of negative messages and feeling incapable.
And kids really need chances to feel capable. But you know, it’s like what I often tell kids, I’m like, look, there’s all this intelligence. There’s so many different kinds of smartness. School only cares about these, this, this part of it. And there’s all this other intelligence, all like, it’s all, all these different things.
And if school is only hitting on this very narrow portion of intelligence. And that happens to be where those kids tricky areas are. They’re going to get the message every day that they’re not smart. Which they absolutely are smart and intelligent and it breaks my heart because as communities we lose out on all of their gifts When they’re feeling demoralized every day,
Frances Shefter: right?
And that’s what happened to me. I didn’t think I was smart I didn’t think I was smart enough to go to law school And I went to teaching and then you know turns out it was apparently, you know, [00:19:00] i’m doing pretty good now Um, but yeah, I
Nicole Connell: feel like K to 12, like there’s almost this feeling of like, okay, let’s just, let’s try to get them through K to 12 with as much of their self esteem intact.
And then a lot of times, you know, kiddos with learning differences can go on and specialize in something that they really care about in college. And for some, not all. Um, kids, like, college can feel better than K to 12 because it’s more specific than this generalized knowledge, and it could translate into what they actually, like, want to do on a day to day basis versus, like, general ed.
Frances Shefter: Right. And that’s, you know, self esteem is such a huge thing and the mind shift and just reminds me of my business coach who, you know, says, like, you know, we figure stuff out. Like, you know, that’s, that’s what we learned in law school. You know, we learned how to figure stuff out. And so I’m thinking about like the kids in K through 12 that, you know, don’t have the self esteem that think they can’t, they can’t, they can’t are never going to [00:20:00] learn how they can without having that like, Hey, you’re right.
You can’t do that right now, but guess what? When you were born, you couldn’t talk or walk and you’re doing that now, right? So let’s, you know, let’s build on that. What can you do? And let’s, let’s practice it and keep going and, and get, I can’t stand, well, I can’t, you know, get that can’t out of it. You know, like, like you can.
Whether you can’t or you can, you know, whether you say you can’t or you can, you’re right.
Nicole Connell: And I think the piece too with school is meaning, right? A lot of kids maybe don’t see the meaning in some of the things that they are asked to do. Um, for example, you know, there’s a large population of kiddos who just may never memorize 7 times 8.
Right doesn’t. Right. They just, but what is their job? What is their job? You know, like what is maybe third grade or, you know, I don’t know, second grade, depending on what school their job is to memorize those math [00:21:00] facts and some kids just can’t. Yeah. And you know, is there specific meaning in memorizing that, or could they use a calculator?
Frances Shefter: I still use my fingers, but I still use my fingers, you know, it’s okay because that’s not, I’m not a numbers person, you know, um, and, and you’re right. It’s, it’s, you’re forced to learn how to spell, to learn how to memorize facts, to learn how to do this, to learn how to do that. I do have to say, at least in Montgomery County, the new, I hated it at first, the new Eureka, uh, Um, the way they’re teaching math now it’s like instead of the carrying the one they decompose a 10 which is totally You know, but now that I see my kids as they’re getting older my older one is in fourth grade Um, and I see her thinking process when it’s coming with math.
It’s a lot more, um, a lot deeper, like a lot more deeper understanding of how numbers work [00:22:00] because of the way they were taught, which is interesting. Um, so I love that they switched that, but it’s still like, you know what, if you’re not a math person, you’re not a math person, and that’s okay. You know, okay, so you’re not going to be a bookkeeper or an accountant.
That’s okay, you know. Um, yeah, so what, like, I mean, so many kids have such negative experiences and get so down and not wanting to go to school. Like, what are some things that parents can do to help their kids, like, get through those negative experiences?
Nicole Connell: I think the first is just develop a super deep understanding of your kids experience.
I think that’s the first step. Not, not just surface level, like, Hey, I was school. Okay. Great. Bye. You know, but like, what does it really like to be you? And, and this might come from asking your child explicitly, this might come from really just imagining and putting yourself in your kid’s shoes. Shoes, [00:23:00] but just getting really clear, like, wow, what is my child enduring every day?
Because I think often as adults, we want to rush to the solution, like, okay, you’re struggling, let’s fix it. And that comes from such a beautiful place. Cause we, we want to help the kids in our lives, but that felt emotional experience that kids can often feel really alone in if we skip over the deep empathy for what it’s like to be them.
And then we can’t really attune to them and we can’t really be like, you’re right. That sucks. You know, one of my favorite questions is I’ll ask, uh, you know, what grade would you give your teacher? You know, what grade would you give your school? And so like flipping a little bit of like the, the power dynamics of like, well, what, you know, cause I think there’s almost this bias of adults kind of will often align just with the school system.
Well, your teacher said this. Like, right. They said this. Well, [00:24:00] yeah, take that information. It’s valuable and get really curious. What does your kid say? Oh, your kid is giving your teacher a D because the teacher is saying this every day to him. Okay. Right. I think that level of understanding and empathy, number one for their experience, and then kind of perspective ship of like, you’re right.
That is, that isn’t fair. That is messed up. That I think can just really help the kid really feel seen. Cause at the end of the day, we all want to feel seen and heard and gotten right. Behavior, right. To me, behavior is information. So your child could be doing all sorts of stuff in the classroom. Right.
That’s easy to orient to like, well, the teacher said this, the teacher, like, well, what’s going on? Like, what are you trying to communicate that you’re not able to with words? So that I can understand where you’re coming from. Oh, like you feel really frustrated because [00:25:00] you can’t read and everyone else in the class can read and someone’s making fun of you at recess.
Frances Shefter: Right.
Nicole Connell: I could, I could see why you might want to throw a book. Now we don’t want to, you know, throwing things is not always the answer, but that actually makes a lot of sense about why you do that.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. It’s, you know, back from my teaching days, I’ve always said, um, there’s two reasons kids misbehave. One is that they’re so far behind, they don’t know what’s going on and they don’t want anybody to know.
So they’re hiding it. Or they’re so far ahead. They’re bored out of their minds, and so they’re doing something to give them reason for being there. Um, and it’s like if we start looking at that, it’s just, you know, our society so much like puts a ba you know, Oh, they’re misbehaving, let’s put a functional behavior assessment, let’s do a behavior intervention plan, let’s do this.
Like, but let’s look under, like why, where is, [00:26:00] what’s causing the misbehavior? Because if you get to that, you’re not gonna have the behavior issues. Thanks. You know, I had one client that, you know, had the behavior issues and we discovered he was bored and we skipped him up, you know, a couple of grades in one subject and guess what?
didn’t have the behavior issues in that class anymore because he was being stimulated the way he needed to be. Um, and you know, and like that’s so, it’s so true of like, let’s see, and I, and I don’t like putting more on teachers because we know it’s hard enough, but like that’s where I think our society and school systems fail our kids is that instead of bringing in behaviorists, It’s a way of kind of like, you know, disciplining, uh, teachers, um, or you know, bringing in psychologists, or bringing in specialists to really look at what’s going on.
We’re so quick to punish, to, to discipline, to, you know, let’s suspend them, let’s put them in school suspension. Let’s, you know, do a behavior plan. We need to change that behavior, like, but why? Like what’s, what’s that underneath, right? [00:27:00]
Nicole Connell: Well, then what happens is the child can internalize that they’re bad.
Yep. Right, because even if they don’t know what’s going on in that meeting, you know, down the hall, or they don’t know what’s in the behavior plan, like, they know something’s up.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, they do. And then that’s the worst, just because once you get that in your head, I know, like, from my Way Back When days, but like, you know, once you think, I’m a bad kid, Then you’re going to start acting that way all the time, because that’s what you identify with.
Right. And to get out of that, I can imagine it’s gotta be, you know, hard because just because one person said you are, it doesn’t mean you are. And you can prove them wrong, you know, it’s so heartbreaking seeing that.
Frances Shefter: Um, so I know you were saying you do girl empowerment groups, like what does that look like?
What do you have going on with that?
Nicole Connell: Yeah, well, I think one of the biggest things that I see kids missing is autonomy. A place to feel like in charge of [00:28:00] themselves and also to feel capable. So I think it’s been about five years now since I’ve been doing this. Uh, I just had this vision for girls to actually lead, not me teach them leadership.
I mean, I do in an indirect way for them to get actual time to be in charge. So they get time to be in charge of the whole group and they lead. pretty much anything they want. Um, I like to joke. I’m like, you can do anything. Just no crimes. Okay. Like we’re not committing any crimes. Okay. Right. Um, so yeah, they lead whatever they want and the rest of the group, you know, participates.
And then at the end we share appreciations. And so they’re able to highlight things that school doesn’t necessarily, um, teach. Or, or, you know, or just put attention on. Um, and then it culminates in the girls leading an online retreat for their parents. So they come together and then they lead, um, something really, it’s really always fun and like [00:29:00] sweet, uh, for the parents and it’s fun for the parents to be in the other role and just, you know, watch their child be in charge.
Um, yeah. So that has been a really fun thing that I’ve added over the years.
Frances Shefter: That is awesome. Yeah, like it’s, I think about Girl Scouts are, you know, my girls are in Girl Scouts and we do that. And we’re the co troop leader and I are slowly stepping back and letting like the fourth grader start teaching because we have a multi age group.
We have kindergarten through fourth. So now we’re like taking that step back and letting the fourth graders take over and then run and play in the meetings because That’s their growth, you know, and then we can relax a little bit. We don’t have to do it all, you know, totally.
Nicole Connell: And those opportunities don’t often exist in our current school system.
But what’s tricky is, um, so my girls group is for ages 10 to 14. And during that age, It’s like, I feel like girls, it’s, it’s a little similar to almost like the toddler years, right? Like their power is coming online. Then they’re like, Ooh, you know, but there’s not a healthy outlet [00:30:00] for it often.
Frances Shefter: Right.
Nicole Connell: You know?
So I know for me, it would kind of, it came out sideways when I was a preteen. So it’s like, where, yeah, where are different opportunities in the community where you can step into your leadership and step into your power and be in charge?
Frances Shefter: Right. Yeah. It’s so important, which again, is like bringing in the strengths and looking at what you can do and how you can do things.
Um, that’s so awesome. And so, so what do you, I, so I know you’re in the Bay area. Do you do online? Do you only do people in the Bay area? Like how, what is your client base? What is, What does that look like?
Nicole Connell: Yeah. I work with people virtually, um, and in person. Got it.
Frances Shefter: So you can, you can, do you do nationwide or do you just focus on the Bay Area?
Nicole Connell: Yeah, no, I’ve worked with someone in New York City before and it’s, it’s always fun just, um, when it’s the right fit. Um, but it’s a long distance. Right. Maybe they can’t find someone where they are. Who’s. [00:31:00] Philosophy is kind of what they’re looking for. So yeah, I’ll do, yeah, nation nationwide.
Frances Shefter: I love how you say that the right fit.
Cause that’s one of the things that I also talk about often is that, um, it’s not always the right fit, you know, and that’s, and that’s okay. There’s nothing wrong with either person. Um, it’s just not, it’s not the right fit. They don’t work well. And, um, somebody told me, I mean, years ago, um, It was, he actually put it with dating, um, of like when you go shopping for a shirt, because I had just broken up with a boyfriend and I was a mess and, um, he said when you go shopping for a shirt and you see like the most perfect shirt in the world and it’s like the perfect shirt and you put it on and it just looks horrible, absolutely awful.
Is there anything wrong with the shirt? No. Is there anything wrong with you? No. It’s just not a good fit. And I wish so many professionals, I know, I mean the better professionals know, like hey, this isn’t working, let’s find you somebody [00:32:00] that it can work with. Because it’s, if you continue a relationship, a professional relationship with somebody that’s not working, you’re doing more damage than good.
Right. Because now
Nicole Connell: a lot of times the parents pick out the shirt, right? It’s the parents. And, um, a lot of times it’s very aligned with the child. Um, but not always. And so I always set up the first initial session with consent. I’m like, look, this first initial session is for you, the child, the teen to get to know me and hear about what we might be able to do together.
And if at the end of this, you were a firm, no, and you just know, this is not the right fit for you. Like, amazing. Like, I want you to, to know that. And if you’re a maybe, then we can try, we can see. And if you’re a yes, great. Um, but I just, yeah, it doesn’t really work if the child or teen doesn’t want to be there.
Um, and it, you know, if it’s not the right fit.
Frances Shefter: Right. [00:33:00] Yeah. And I mean, there’s also a difference between a child not wanting to be there, not wanting to do it versus just, they don’t want to be there with that person. Right, and that, that’s the key to figure out, um, which it is and find the right thing, which goes back to listening to our children and what they want.
Because again, like if you’re forcing them to do, like you’re forcing them to do something else and you’re forcing them to do this, it’s not, it’s not going to help in the long run. Um, you know, there’s, there’s so much, I’m just thinking about like the parenting philosophies of like, well they have to do what they have to do because I’m the parent and they’re the child and that’s the way it’s always been done.
Oh yeah, that’s not working in today’s world. Right? Definitely not. So why, like, If parents, you know, are, are listeners watching the show or listening to the show, like, what are some things that they can look for of knowing, like, Hey, I need to reach out to Nicole. Like, she might be able to talk to me. Like, what are some red flags or [00:34:00] signs that they might need to come talk to you about some things?
Nicole Connell: Uh, if you’re noticing that school isn’t working for your child. Um, I love this, this kind of reframe of like I wrote this article called when school stops working for your child versus like the other way around. So if your child’s refusing to go to school, if your child hates school, if it’s even if there may be going, but it feels like you’re noticing some harm happening in their self esteem or however it might look, um, just to kind of see, like, what are the options?
Thank you Do you want to pursue something alternative or is it a situation that with some outside support school can be tolerable? Because there definitely are those kids. Not all kids need to leave the school system. Right. Um, yeah, just school isn’t quite right and uh, parents are wanting their child to experience vitality.
and wanting their [00:35:00] child wellness. Um, anything ar or not capable. Um, all t anxiety around school. Th And families are wanting to maybe do a homeschooling or unschooling approach, um, but need some outside support. Um, that’s something that I could help with too.
Frances Shefter: That is so awesome. So I hope our listeners are listening and, and might have some ideas.
And so how, I know we’re going to have it all in the show notes, but how can people get in touch with you? Like what’s the best way to reach you?
Nicole Connell: The best way is my website, which is just www.nicoleconnell.com. Um, and you can send me a message there. Awesome.
Frances Shefter: This has been so awesome. Um, thank you so much, Nicole.
This is like, I love like, it’s so funny because I, I say this all the time is that, you know, I’ve had educational, you know, um, therapists on [00:36:00] the show and, um, every time it’s something different. And that goes back to the fit. Is it a good fit? Because each of you have a different philosophy in a different way.
And what works for one doesn’t work for another. And that’s why like I love having lots of different people in the same profession because it’s like, Oh, look, wait, this person does it this way. Not that way, and that way doesn’t work, but this way might, and you know, it’s so awesome. So, thank you so much for being here and sharing all of your words of wisdom.
Nicole Connell: Thank you for having me.
Voiceover: You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEP®, with your host, Frances Shefter. Remember, you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through ShefterLaw. com, where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews. Comments and sharing the show with others through YouTube, LinkedIn, Apple [00:37:00] podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, and more.
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