In this episode of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter speaks with Jennifer Strong, school psychologist for Cognitive Diagnostic Associates in Newport Beach, CA, a leading educational consulting firm. With over two decades of experience, Jennifer is dedicated to empowering students with diverse learning needs through personalized assessments and tailored interventions.
Tune in to the episode to hear about:
Comprehensive Evaluations: Jennifer emphasized the importance of comprehensive evaluations that integrate various disciplines such as school psychology, speech pathology, occupational therapy, and adaptive physical education.
Independent Educational Evaluations (IEEs): Parents have the right to request an IEE at public expense if they disagree with the evaluation provided by the school district. Jennifer highlighted the importance of advocating for this right and seeking out quality evaluations to support the child’s educational needs.
Advocacy and Knowledge Sharing: Jennifer underscored the significance of community and knowledge sharing among parents, educators, and professionals in the field of special education.
Building Relationships with School Staff: Jennifer advised parents to establish positive relationships with school personnel, including principals and school psychologists.
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP® experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
Frances Shefter: You can get more details and catch prior episodes at www.shefterlaw.com. The Stress-Free IEP® IEP video podcast is also posted on YouTube and LinkedIn, and you can listen to episodes through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, Stitcher, and more. Now, here’s the host of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter.
Frances Shefter: Hello everyone and welcome to the show. Today’s guest, I’m really excited because Jennifer Strong is a school neuropsychologist. And if you’ve been watching the show for a while, my absolute first guest back in February of 2022 was also a school neuropsychologist. And it’s not very often that There are school based neuropsychologists, from my understanding, um, so, but Jennifer is out in Newport, California, Newport Beach, California, and works, uh, or owns Cognitive Diagnostic Associates.
So, Jennifer, I’m [00:01:00] so excited because we get to, like, talk a little bit because our first guest was New York. the first one. So now we can, like, kind of talk about how it’s a little bit different in different states.
Frances Shefter: So tell us a little about yourself. Like, how did you get into this field and what’s your background?
Jennifer Strong: Yeah, we can go coast to coast, which is really nice. First, you know, thanks for having me on. This is wonderful. Um, so a little bit about me, my background. I actually am Alaska grown. I grew up in Alaska. My parents are from California and my father was the only physician in a small fishing village in Seldovia, Alaska.
So I got to see firsthand the care and the, the amount of time and the, you know, the empathy and everything that went involved in medicine, um, from that type of lens. Um, so I then went to do an undergraduate degree at university of the Pacific and Stockton, California, cause I knew I wanted to be in sunny Southern California.
Yeah. Right.
Jennifer Strong: Um, and so then I did a sports, um, sports [00:02:00] management degree and a psychology bachelor’s, uh, double major. And then I fell in love with special ed somehow. I, I, I looked back at my small town and saw all the need that was there. Um, and then just slowly started to get into school psychology.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, it’s interesting, like how, because I wouldn’t think sports medicine and special education, you know, kind of like
Jennifer Strong: a little bit different there, but surprisingly they do because, you know, we work with adaptive physical education specialists, OTs, PTs.
And now that I know about gait, human movement, um, you know, abduction, abduction, all of that, it’s actually been a blessing in disguise because I can really have those communications. With my adaptive physical education specialist with my O. T. So it’s actually make sense. Yeah, very, very beneficial.
Frances Shefter: Because that’s one of the things like part of the reason for the show is that, you know, each of our extra [00:03:00] just, you know, our areas disciplines, even though we’re all working with the disability community.
There’s different language and different knowledge base and stuff. And so part of the reason for the show is to explain to parents like, Hey, look, you can understand it. Here’s how we can help you. But that’s I love that that. That it makes sense that knowing that part, I would say, would make your assessment.
It’s more robust, like your reports, because you know, like the full, like how to make the mental and the physical, right?
Jennifer Strong: Right. Yeah. And I didn’t really realize it till later on in my career when it kind of clicked. And I was like, hold on, like I did something really, really amazing by getting these two degrees together.
Uh, I didn’t know it in the past, but now looking at now when I can look in an AP report or a PT or, or occupational therapy report, I can really understand it better from that lens.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, that’s so cool. It’s because it’s so important. Um, understanding all, and I love that you say that I went, I actually took the family to Alaska this summer.
[00:04:00] So, Oh, nice.
Jennifer Strong: What city? Beautiful.
Frances Shefter: Um, we did a cruise. We were in Juneau. Um, Ketchikan. And I can’t think of the third one. I can’t think of the third one. We were in and out of Cal, um, Canada though, out of Vancouver. Yeah, it’s beautiful,
Jennifer Strong: that area. It
Frances Shefter: was very beautiful. Yeah,
Jennifer Strong: go back in the summer. It’s a wonderful, wonderful time.
We
Frances Shefter: were, we were there in August.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah.
Frances Shefter: So yeah, it was absolutely beautiful. Um, like until you’ve actually seen the glaciers, you know, you can’t describe them, right? And
Jennifer Strong: yeah.
Frances Shefter: So, um, that’s why I was saying very different than, uh, California. Um, so you’re in California. So I know you said you grew up in Alaska.
Frances Shefter: Like how did you work in other states also?
Jennifer Strong: Yeah, so I did all my schooling here in California. Um, and I actually have done a little bit of time being what a school psychologist in Texas. Um, we did [00:05:00] move our family there for a little bit. Uh, and we lived in Austin, Texas. So I did, I am licensed there. I don’t know if it’s current.
I should probably check into that, but I, I did take the test. I studied for Texas ed code is completely different than California ed code. Um, so they call them LSSPs. Uh, and now They actually are now called school psychologists. So there’s kind of a big victory, but they used to in the past be called licensed specialist of school psychology.
So, yeah, so now I do kind of understand Texas Ed Code slightly, but I definitely understand California Ed Code a lot more. Got it.
Frances Shefter: Which is so, you know, it’s so different because I say often, you know, I practice internationally, as I’ve said, um, and it’s federal law. And so all states and American schools in international countries have to follow the federal law, but each state interprets it slightly different or tweaks it a little bit.
Jennifer Strong: Yes, it’s very interesting to [00:06:00] follow, right? It’s very interesting to see how I feel like we’re doing a decent job following federal law for the most part. But yeah, when it gets down to the state. It’s, it’s very different. Like California, uh, in the past, you couldn’t give an IQ test to an African American student and our board, uh, we just voted on that to kind of have a memorandum to go to the California department of ed, um, and now that’s changed, right?
So it’s like different things in, in state, uh, law that changed based on case law.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, no, it was one of the things that I remember, um, looking into, cause I did have a client in California and that in California. Summer vacations. I think it’s any vacations over five days like tolls the special education timelines.
Yeah, and that’s not the same in Maryland, Maryland. It does not at all. 90 days is 90 days period. Oh, it doesn’t matter. Yeah. If it, you know, like, you can ask July 1 and that starts your, your [00:07:00] clock. It doesn’t matter that we’re not in session at all. Um, you know, if you have a meeting and, you know, June 1st, and you say, you know, they agree to assess it.
It’s an initial assessment. They have 60 days from day of consent to come to the table period. Yeah. So no break over holidays. Like, yeah, no, which makes sense because like, if not, you know, like, okay, so let’s wait two and a half months because we have summer vacation, you know, and you’re just who’s suffering the child.
Jennifer Strong: Right.
Frances Shefter: Um, so I always find it interesting that California, I don’t want to say gets away with it, but interprets it that way that it does. Cause I guess, you know, federal law is. It’s kind of silent on it. So it’s, how does, how does the state interpret that and apply it?
Jennifer Strong: Yeah, that would make sense. And I know for at least us, our spring breaks are typically Monday through Friday, five days.
So for spring break, the timeline doesn’t stop or anything, but it has to be over five days. So if it’s six days or longer than it stops. Yeah.
Frances Shefter: Which I guess, I [00:08:00] mean, in some ways I could see that totally making sense. Cause I know for me. Like over the summer, it’s not the same team, your teachers aren’t there, and so you’re going to have a summer team doing the assessment that doesn’t necessarily know the child.
Um, and not, I mean the summer team is just as, you know, qualified as everybody else, but it’s just different. Um, so you can see why it kind of makes sense. And there has been times that I’ve, like, delayed requesting the meeting because we wanted to make sure that it was the school team doing it, um, type situation.
But then there’s other times that we’re like, you know what? The school’s been delaying it long enough. Like, no, y’all need to get it done, period.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah. And I don’t know if you guys are similar. We have some verbiage called without undue delay. Okay. Similar stuff. And I don’t know if that was a state or a federal law, but it seems like there’s a fair amount of undue delay happening, uh, whatever that undo word means.
Right. Exactly. Well, it’s, you know,
Frances Shefter: it’s, it’s typical laws, right? It’s [00:09:00] vague. Yeah. It’s left up to interpretation.
Frances Shefter: Um, so, so what, like, so you’re a school neuropsychologist, you work based out of a school or are you private? Like, how does that work?
Jennifer Strong: Yeah. So I was in the school districts for many, many years and this was also a blessing in disguise because I got to see four different districts in Southern California.
Um, and so I got to make relationships and meet the, um, the special ed department and meet the school district and see how they operate and they operate all slightly differently, right? But, but similar, but different. Um, and so after that experience, uh, I decided to branch out and do private practice. So in California, um, and I think there’s one other state, you can be a licensed educational psychologist.
So you sit for your state board and ours is the board of behavioral sciences in California. Um, and then you take a test and you pass it. I went further and I actually did Dan Miller’s program, uh, kids Inc to do the extra credential, [00:10:00] uh, for the school neuropsychologist program. So it’s called an ABS and P.
Um, and so that’s what I have with that program. Um, on top of the L. E. P. So it’s just, uh, additional lens on looking at different types of memory and learning and attention and all of that.
Frances Shefter: So your private practice, you don’t work with the schools anymore? Yeah, to answer your
Jennifer Strong: question. So, so private practice.
Uh, so after the schools, um, yeah, so went into private practice and decided to open my own business. So that’s how Cognitive Diagnostic was started. that diagnostic associates was opened. Um, we’ve been open for about a year now. Um, and we operate in Orange County, California, Los Angeles and San Diego. And then we’re going to open San Francesco soon.
Um, and then hopefully go into other states. Right. Um, so I really saw a need. After working in the schools that long that, hey, we don’t have everybody under one roof. We have, if you [00:11:00] need an outside evaluation and the parents don’t agree with the report from the district, um, you have to piecemeal it together.
You have to, okay, you have to go to this psychologist. You have to go to this. Occupational therapist, and they’re not the same practice. They don’t necessarily communicate with each other the best as it could be under one house and one roof. So we have 40 employees right now and growing. And so we’ve done a wonderful job.
We just hired on a new physical therapist. We hired on a new registered nurse. Um, we have a lot of, uh, practitioners that can fill all those needs for especially our kiddos that have more, uh, impact, more needs. to be assessed. So that’s kind of how I came into it.
Frances Shefter: That’s awesome.
Frances Shefter: So you do, so then the company does private assessments.
Do you do like independent educational evaluations at public expense?
Jennifer Strong: Yeah, so we do a public expense. And so that’s part of the, the laws that parents are kind of unaware [00:12:00] of, uh, is that they are entitled to that outside evaluation at public expense. Uh, and so advocating for that to let them know they have that option, um, we, we have a few avenues.
So one, we do take insurance. So we do, if it’s a medical model evaluation that needs to be done through that channel, we can do that too. We take, you know, uh, the district will fund it, uh, in three, sometimes if there’s severe enough, or there’s a need, parents will pay privately out of pocket. And it just depends on each case by case situation.
Frances Shefter: Right. Yeah, no, that’s, that’s, it’s interesting with the IE’s, um, it’s, I’ve done a lot of talking about it and stuff and what people don’t realize, I’ve had clients come and like, well, I asked them to do an evaluation and independent and they just said no. Like, well, they’re not allowed to just say no, you know, like federal law.
They have two options. Like one, they authorize it or two, [00:13:00] they file due process against you to stand behind and say that their evaluations are, um, are proper. Right. So, and that’s like, that’s it. Um, Interestingly, it had been my experience that I had pretty much always the school has just offered a pay because it’s just, it’s easier, um, than not.
But, um, more recently I’ve actually had school districts file against my clients.
Jennifer Strong: Oh,
Frances Shefter: interesting. To say, yeah, to say that theirs, theirs was a valid, Um,
Jennifer Strong: and
Frances Shefter: unfortunately, the cost of litigation, usually my parents just drop the request because it’s cheaper for them to go pay for it themselves than to pay me to defend it and potentially not win, you know, yeah,
Jennifer Strong: yeah, that’s the cost analysis.
Uh, majority of the time that from my experience, and again, we’ve only been open a year, but within this year, most districts have approved, uh, the, there are a handful of them that have said, hey, we’re going [00:14:00] to file to defend. Um, but, you know, it, it just depends on if it’s legally defensible, right? And so we, we really try to educate our parents to say, this is kind of what’s going to happen.
Uh, sometimes it takes a while for them to respond and we tell them about the terms, you know, without undue delay. Um, and then their options just so they know, so they’re informed on what, what’s going to happen.
Frances Shefter: Yeah.
Frances Shefter: And that’s, you know, I ha I have this show and then I have my YouTube channel has over a hundred videos and that’s the whole thing to inform parents like, Hey, you don’t have to take this, you know, like here’s your remedy.
And I always say like, it’s, I don’t think the schools aren’t doing it, you know, um, in a mean way or maliciously or, you know, anything, it’s just sometimes the schools don’t even know.
Jennifer Strong: Um,
Frances Shefter: I look back to when I was a teacher, um, and a special ed coordinator, and I remember when I was going to law school and a lot of my friends in the, um, school system were like, don’t forget, your signature is right next to our signature.
Like, what’s that supposed to [00:15:00] mean? And then once I got into law school, looking at it, I was like, oh. So what we thought, because that’s what we were always taught and what the school system said to do. Wasn’t necessarily within the letter of the law, but if nobody was saying anything, we didn’t know, you know, like, we’re not gonna go research the law, you know, and parents don’t know.
Unfortunately,
Jennifer Strong: yeah, that’s an interesting point. You bring up. Yeah, you guys are our colleagues. I’ve actually had a great experience with the attorneys that represent the districts and then the also the attorneys that represent the parents. We work pretty closely with them. So you are right. They do have, there’s some pretty good attorneys on both sides of the story.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. And it’s, you know, it’s like, I always say, I, for most, for the most part, I would say most of the attorneys I work with at, or at the school system, we have a decent relationship, you know, because it’s, we respect each other. Like that’s the whole point of the law. That’s the whole point of things is like, there’s a difference of interpretation, you know, I really.
We don’t like to believe that all of our [00:16:00] hearts are in the right place of what we think is best for the child. It’s just we don’t always agree on what that should be. And so, you know, um, not that like nobody wins in litigation. I always say that, you know, nobody really wins in litigation because no matter what you’re taking so much out of everything.
Um, but unfortunately the child’s the one that loses the most, even when you win at literary, you know, in litigation. But you know, like when talking with other attorneys, it’s like, yeah, you know, like. Yeah. Okay. You think it should be this and we think it should be that. And like, here’s a law and we’ll put it in front of a judge and see which way we go.
Yeah. And a lot of times it’s not even, we don’t even have to go to litigation because we’ll come to a happy medium, you know, and just find that happy place. Um, I know for me, a lot of times what I’ve seen is that parents just don’t feel heard.
Jennifer Strong: True. Yeah. They feel totally ignored. I a hundred percent agree with you with that because looking at it from this lens, you know, having them feel heard [00:17:00] and having them understand the process speaks volumes.
Uh, and that’s what all of our practitioners in the company have been made aware of. Um, and, and it, it goes a long ways, you know, just to be transparent and have that feeling of comfort and, and all of that. A hundred percent. Right?
Frances Shefter: Yeah. And, and that’s the thing. And it’s also like, and I say, you know, knowledge is power.
We all say that. And it’s just what I say. You know, people are like, well, what do you suggest for like any new parents or somebody that just got a diagnosis is like, what do you suggest? I’m like, go educate yourself. Find parent groups with similar diagno, you know, with kids with similar diagnosis. Mm-Hmm, or just adjustability.
You know, um, in general, follow people on Instagram, YouTube, all of that, and just educate yourself because, you know, like it’s, the teachers don’t know the laws, the people in the school system don’t know the laws, you know, parents don’t know the, the teacher language, the psychologist language, like there’s so many different areas, like you were [00:18:00] saying, like with, with the sports medicine, how it helps you so much as a psychologist, an average psychologist doesn’t know All of that other, you know, the OT, the PT and all of the other stuff.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah.
Frances Shefter: Just change everything. So that advice is good.
Jennifer Strong: And also connecting with the community. So big proponent for that is, you know, you’re not in this alone, right? There’s, there’s those self help groups. There’s the community, um, connecting people with Linda Mood Bell or Orton Gillingham, or any of that, I find a lot of joy in that actually is really, really bringing the community together.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, that’s, I, I do a lot on that, is that, you know, who’s in, you know, your village, who’s in your community, and let’s build it together, because it’s, um, you know, you learn the most from parent groups. I’m in so many parent groups and Facebook. And it’s just, it’s funny because like, you know, being a parent of children with neurodiversity and being an education attorney, it’s like that finding that like, yes, I’m [00:19:00] here as a parent, you know, like I’m not here as an education attorney, but I can’t take that part of me out.
So sometimes it’ll be like, so my experience. been, but I’ve had clients. And if you want to check out a YouTube video, you know, but it’s always that fine line because I don’t want to, I don’t want people to feel that I’m in the group to, to promote my business because that’s not the reason I’m in the group because I have neurodiverse children and I learned just as much, you know, from parent, other parents as they learned from me.
And it’s just, it’s that natural environment.
Jennifer Strong: Right.
Frances Shefter: Um, but I’m also, yeah, I’m also free with that. I’m always happy to, you know, give advice or just, you know, recommendations. Obviously not legal advice. They can’t do that. And, you know, but like in the sense of like, Hey, if you want to know about PWNs, check out this video, or if you want to learn more about this, you know, To go follow this person or, you know, that type of stuff.
Jennifer Strong: And I think that is nice about having the, I appreciate [00:20:00] this podcast because it connects the community, right? So this would have never happened a long time ago where we’d have California talk, you know, West coast, East coast discussing things. So in my mind, when I’m going to connect community and I need questions answered, I’ll probably send them to you if it’s an East coast question, right?
Because, because of the state laws are so different. So that’s really nice that this can happen and you do this. So thank you. Thank
Frances Shefter: you. Yeah.
Frances Shefter: And I mean, in today’s world, it’s not like it used to be very, like, you know, we didn’t interact as much, but nowadays, like, you know, there’s so many people that are six months here, six months there, three months, you know, whatever, that there is a lot of, um, integrating like different, you know, different coasts and different, you know, everybody knows, everybody has family on the East coast and the West coast, you know, now.
So, um, Learning about it because originally people are like, well, why are you having people from California in your show? You’re in Maryland. I’m like, because they have information as well. And they had, you know, and in a lot of people, like I’m assuming [00:21:00] you just, so you just practice in California. Well, you
Jennifer Strong: for now.
Yeah. But we have a coming soon offices in Phoenix and Las Vegas and about six or seven other States. So yeah, there’s a need for our community, our school psychology community to do more private practice.
Jennifer Strong: Um, and clinical psychologists have their place in their grade, but, um, they don’t know ed code. So while we can have a clinical psych do a report, it has to be meaningful and has to integrate in the IEP and has to integrate into the law.
So I just saw that need as well. It’s like, okay, Nevada and Arizona and Texas, we all, we need more of the school psychs to do this stuff. And I was actually a big proponent of, there’s some good psychologists in Maryland, actually.
Jennifer Strong: So when I, when I talk to the people in California, I’m like, Hey, we need to open this up to make sure that if a parent needs a good evaluation in dyslexia, let’s say, and they want to choose a psychologist in Maryland, they [00:22:00] should be able to do that.
Right. Right. Um, so I’m, I’m, I’m having advocate advocacy, uh, towards that to kind of open it up to, to the community.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. No, that’s great. Cause that’s, I mean, and that’s the thing. It’s, it’s. I know there’s a lot of people that do international and state, and as we say, it’s different. Possible and you know, the thing is, is that there’s some states that they don’t have anybody period, you know, and so it’s, yeah, yeah, very few.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah, so they were at the conference this year and the directors were there from the different districts. So, uh, that’s also something on my, my mind. My radar to kind of make sure that we can help support them. You know, my, my home state,
Frances Shefter: right?
Jennifer Strong: Yeah.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. Because I mean, I know like in Utah, there’s like nobody out there to help.
And, you know, and they’re needed just as much. And it’s, you know, people are like, Oh, well, it’s a smaller school district. They [00:23:00] don’t have the money and this and that. But they’re getting federal funds and
Jennifer Strong: not having
Frances Shefter: the money is not an excuse. Correct. Like, they’re legally required to do certain things and provide certain things.
I mean, they don’t have to go overboard, crazy, you know, develop a program just specific for one child, but they have to have options available to support. And they can’t just say, well, we don’t have the money, we don’t have to do that because that doesn’t work.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah.
Frances Shefter: Um, so like what, so I know you’re saying like in a community.
So what’s like, what else is going on? Like, um, so you’re branching out. That is so exciting to hear like a year in and like you’re growing so big. That’s so exciting. Yes. Um, yeah. So how, like, how is that, how does that work?
Frances Shefter: So if people are like, oh, wait, I might need. A private evaluation and like the, like, I love the idea that you do all of it because that’s an issue we have here often is like, okay, so the OT has to do this, the physical therapist, and the psychologist, which they all talk a little bit, but it’s not as [00:24:00] full comprehensive report with everything in, like, how does that work?
in your organization.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah. So growing is a wonderful thing. Uh, so it’s, it’s, it works very well.
Jennifer Strong: So depending on the need of the child, uh, and what type, what the previous IEPs and the documents have said in the past, we’re kind of looking at that and analyzing what is needed. And sometimes we work closely with lawyers to see, you know, for example, What’s going on?
What do what do we need to help support this kiddo? Right? Or what? How? How is how is the district failed to provide fate, which is the free, you know, the free appropriate public education. Um, so we compile a team together. So it’s a school psychologist, a speech path, an O. T. An adapted physical education specialist altogether.
And then they do their own independent reports. But there they are together. So it is kind of like this is report one of four. Um, and and so then they collaborate as a [00:25:00] team to kind of decide what would be in the best interest of the student.
Frances Shefter: And then do they I’m assuming you guys testify if needed as expert witnesses.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah. Yeah. Everyone of us. Yeah. So, if needed, we can go on the stand if, if it goes, if it goes that far, sometimes, you know, just mediation, but if it does go to due process and you have to testify.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, I like that because I don’t think I mean I we have lots of great of everything But I don’t know I’m trying to think it I don’t like I don’t know of any that do all of it You know, it’s us.
It’s such a great, yeah, no, it’s just like there’s a need.
Frances Shefter: So hopefully you’ll spread nationwide. . Yeah. And that’s
Jennifer Strong: the plan, right? Yeah. Um, that, that is the plan. So Arizona and, and Nevada will be next for that to help support. Yeah. That is awesome.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. I love that. So then those are the, so you’re in the areas and I know, we’ll, we’ll probably put it in the show notes.
We’ll go into a little bit more specifics of the areas that you’re in and people to contact you. Yeah. Um, so like what.
Frances Shefter: Like, [00:26:00] I don’t know, um What could you suggest, I’m just trying to think of like to parents, like most of our listeners are parents and caregivers or children, like what, are there any pointers you could give to them of like what to look for when, you know, when a school psychologist does the evaluation and they’re, they just don’t feel it’s right or things like that to, to get the school to approve the IEE.
Jennifer Strong: Um, so great question. So I guess it would depend on where they are in the process, right? Some parents. Or have said, you know, I’ve requested an evaluation. The school just keeps saying, no, we’re just gonna put in research based interventions. But they don’t, you know, they try, yeah, but they don’t really track and there’s no data to support it.
So I’m always educating parents on, you know, their rights. You know, you have 15 days to respond with an assessment plan for your approval and signature. And then in California you have 60 days to test.
Jennifer Strong: Um, so I would advise parents to make the [00:27:00] relationships with the school, make that relationship with your principal and your school psychologist, because those are the two people that run the school for the most part, right?
Assistant principals and all of them, if it’s a large school. Um, but make those relationships and, and try to have an open dialogue about what you’re seeing. Um, and if it, it doesn’t quite, um, you know, mommy moms have mom gut, right? You get that mommy gut. So if you go through the assessment and you’re getting mommy gut, you gotta trust it.
Right. Um, so one make that relationship with the school staff, uh, to make them feel somewhat comfortable, right? Say, Hey, I got these concerns from my kiddo. At the same time, if you’re getting that mom gut, that’s when you kind of need to call us to make sure and double check. And we’re, we’re the ones that give that outside double assessment to make sure.
Frances Shefter: Right. Yeah. And that’s what I say all the time. Like, but I say parent gut. Cause you know, even the dads and even, you know, like foster parents and even, you know, like [00:28:00] caregiver, it’s like all kinds of all caregivers. Like we just have that instinct. Like, yes, mom gut is different than everybody else’s, but like, we all have it, like just something’s not right here and you can tell automatically and you feel it and trust it.
Um, you know, it’s hard because. You know, especially newer parents that, you know, like they don’t know they have, they have no idea what they’re comparing it to. Like, is it normal for my kids to talk like this or not? You don’t know. But if something’s nagging at you, like trust it and reach out, talk to somebody.
Um, yeah. Like one of the things I offer is I offer, it’s called a strategy session. So it’s not like a normal consultation. It’s when the clients get to speak with me for an hour about what’s going on and what the issues are. And we can come up with a plan of action. So it’s like, you don’t have to know what you want or what you think you need.
It’s like, something’s nagging at you and something’s not right. And something the school said doesn’t seem right. Call and book a strategy session and we can talk through. And sometimes it’s like, you know what? Just go back to the school and say X, Y, Z, [00:29:00] and that should solve your issue. If it doesn’t call us back, but that like, sometimes that’s just all it is.
It’s like, You needing to learn the terminology that you need to use for the school. Um,
Jennifer Strong: yeah, that’s great advice for the parents as well. Kind of knowing what to say for sure.
Frances Shefter: Right, exactly. Learn what to say, and that’s going back to the knowledge and, and of course, always put it in writing, you know, yeah, I do
Jennifer Strong: say that as well.
I say, follow up with an email, um, and document it.
Frances Shefter: Yep, exactly because then it’s you know, like per our conversation yesterday It’s my understanding that xyz and list it all out and respond because then if nothing else you have that Well, they they didn’t respond to say it was wrong. Correct. Yeah, you know, so it’s right Yeah, which is it’s it’s sad that you have to think like prepare for litigation and everything you do um, but unfortunately, that’s you know, it’s kind of Hey It’s kind of what you have to do because, you know, like it just, you have to be able [00:30:00] to follow what’s going on and see what’s going on and have it in writing.
Because you might not even need to ever get to litigation, but like a central office person, that’s what I say often, is bringing an attorney to meetings, at least around here, bring central office in. And central office will look at stuff and be like, no, no school. You’re not doing that.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah. Similar here too.
They have program specialists and different types of, um, uh, jobs that they, they come in and sit in the meetings.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s interesting.
Frances Shefter: You say that to align yourself with the principal, cause it’s so true. I say all the time that the principal, the principal makes or breaks the school. And, uh, and especially the special ed department.
Yeah, and how the principal sees special ed like you can just tell automatically like I know immediately when I walk into a school Like this is gonna be a battle because I can tell the way the principal is acting, you know I’ve had I’ve had principals that like literally you can see the fear in the [00:31:00] teachers face when they go to open their mouth You know, and it’s like, clearly that’s what it is.
Um, and it’s frustrating. Cause like those principles, like you’re not helping anybody like that, you know, get off your power horse, you know, like, it’s just, that’s not what it’s about. Like focus on the child.
Jennifer Strong: And hopefully we can help kind of ease the nerves. You know, and that is at least part of my, my goal for the company is to, if you guys do see that, and there is that unequal amount of power to use your negotiation strategies.
Right. A lot of our psychologists in California have taken a class called facilitated IUP training, which, uh, Joyce and Oh, cool. Yeah, little there in Tennessee, actually. So Joyce and Doug little own the company and they train all of these departments. So it’s kind of like conflict resolution strategies, but you are a hundred percent right.
If the, if the principal’s wonderful, it trickles down to the rest of the school. Yeah. Um, and, and the parents can [00:32:00] feel that. So making that relationship with the parent and the psychologists are great because things happen at the district level. Right? Yeah. That’s where the paperwork happens. You can still have a relationship with your, the teacher that’s teaching your child.
Right? And it can be respectful. Yeah.
Frances Shefter: Right. And that’s why I say all the time. It’s like, disagreeing isn’t necessarily adversarial, you know, and that’s like, I don’t, I’ve heard, you know, other attorneys or advocates that come in and they’re like, you need to do this. If you need to do that, you need to do this.
And I’m like, that’s not getting anywhere. Cause then as soon as you go in that adversarial, like the other side pulls up their defenses, you know, Yeah. In that sense. And so it’s kind of go in with. Like we’re talking about this child. I have one client love him to death. She always brings a big picture, an eight by 10 picture of her child and puts it on the, on the table in all the IEP meetings.
I love that. That should be mandatory. Right? Like and it was funny because like the last meeting we went to somebody’s like, oh, is is that him? And we’re like, okay, first of all, you shouldn’t be saying that in a [00:33:00] meeting about this child. But like, yes, that’s my child, you know, um, but like, it’s, you know, remembering, like, we’re not talking about this name, you know, we’re talking about this child right here.
Like, and it’s a cute, fun picture. It’s not like a little stuff, you know, like it’s just, um, but I like, I keep saying that I need to remind, I’ll tell all my clients to start doing that, you know, because it brings that human element in exactly. Exactly. We’re talking about a kid here. We’re not talking about, you know, it’s not who’s right, who’s wrong.
It’s not, you know, oh, well, you know, they say we can’t do this or we can do that. It’s, you know, this is what this child needs, period. That’s what it’s here for. That’s what the law, it’s individual for this child.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah, yeah. And then coming to small agreements, because you’re right, if you come in with guns blazing or vice versa, the principles that way, the negotiation will, will be hard to be reached.
Frances Shefter: Right.
Jennifer Strong: Exactly.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. And that’s why a lot of times with some principles, I’m like, I’ll tell you right now, you’re not going to do not try to go to an IEP [00:34:00] meeting without an attorney. You need central office there.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah, I work for some wonderful principals, and then I work for some principals that are not so wonderful.
Um, but I will wager to guess that the schools that have the great principals have less, uh, concerns with special ed. Oh yeah, definitely.
Frances Shefter: And you can see the difference when a principal changes.
Jennifer Strong: You
Frances Shefter: know, once like this, it’s a fabulous school. And then all of a sudden, like, I have five clients from that school.
Yeah. And it’s like, Oh, a new principal took over. Like that explains things.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah,
Frances Shefter: which is sad and it’s hard, but it’s You know, a lot of it’s also, you know, how you were trained and how you were brought up to think about special ed. Um, unfortunately there’s still a large group of educators that think they should be in the back rooms, you know, seeing not heard back in the trailers, you know, what it was way back when, um, instead of like, no, they should be up and integrated, like, um,
Jennifer Strong: right.
And I, that was the [00:35:00] benefit about seeing four different districts is some of them. had a lot of involvement with principals and some didn’t. Some principals were writing prior written notices and some weren’t, right? Um, so it just depended on the structure of the district on how they formulated the org, the org chart, right?
On who was doing what. So, uh, that’s interesting too, but I agree with you if, if the principals aren’t quite fully vested with special ed. And
Frances Shefter: if they don’t know what’s supposed to be getting, being, getting done, you know, that’s the other thing is like, you know, you have a special ed coordinator that doesn’t exactly know what they’re doing and doesn’t know the laws.
They’re not doing things right. And if the principal has no idea either, so there’s no oversight there. So you don’t even know that your special ed department.
Jennifer Strong: Right. And then the psychologist needs to know their stuff. Yeah.
Frances Shefter: Right.
Jennifer Strong: And if they don’t, then we need more education.
Frances Shefter: Exactly. Exactly. Right. That’s what I’m
Jennifer Strong: saying.
Frances Shefter: There’s another education attorney and we were joking around. It was a long time ago, a [00:36:00] couple of years ago. We were like, yeah, we should do a class on like, how to not get sued by the parents. You know, just simple basics. Like what to not say. Yeah. Say, Oh, well we don’t have the money for that. Like that’s not legal.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And surprisingly, I have, there has been schools that have said that even when I’m in the meeting, you know, has said certain things. And I’ve had like attorneys go and say, um, yeah, Ms. Shefter, can you and your client give us a minute, you know,
Jennifer Strong: like, and they, you know, have gone and
Frances Shefter: said them.
And I
Jennifer Strong: think it, you know, this is my philosophy.
Jennifer Strong: I think it might be beneficial for the teachers when they’re going through school to have more training in special ed. Oh, yeah. Yeah, because they don’t know and they’re just coming from the heart because they’re teachers and sometimes they misspeak. But, you know, when it’s when it gets to that level, there’s things that you can and can’t say.
Right.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, I remember when I, so I did my undergrad and early childhood when I went back after teaching a couple of years to get my [00:37:00] master’s in special ed. I remember, like, sitting in the classes and I’m like. Why do they not teach this in gen ed? Like, this is just good teaching, you know? And I just wonder, like, if more gen ed teachers had this special ed training, like, I don’t want to say that the IEPs wouldn’t be needed as much, but they wouldn’t be needed as much, because kind of, if you integrate this stuff in your gen ed, Regular best teaching practices, then you don’t need an IEP to say to clarify directions or to use a picture schedule or stuff because you just have that naturally in your classroom and it’s not like.
It’s not like, oh, you can’t use that for gen ed, it’s only a special ed thing. Like, it’s, it’s for kids, period.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah, it comes down to the foundation. So, we will do our best to advocate here in our state for that, however that looks. Yeah, but with behavior too, like, you know, kiddos having behavior sometimes too.
teachers aren’t versed on it.
Frances Shefter: Right. Or where it’s coming from. [00:38:00] Cause I have, I, you know, I’ve said it over and over again. Like there’s two reasons that you have kids with this misbehaving class. It’s one, they’re so far behind, they have no clue what’s going on and they don’t want anybody else to realize that.
Or two, they’re so far ahead, they’re bored out of their minds. And like need to find something to entertain themselves with. Correct. That’s when you have the behavior issues. And so you can do an FBA and, and all of that, you know, the functional behavior assessment, all this other stuff, but if you’re not getting to the root of the problem, you’re not, you know, you’re never going to change the behavior because it’s not a behavior issue.
It’s, you know, what’s, what’s the real underlying issue that’s going on. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
Frances Shefter: So, um, this has been so awesome. Thank you so much. Um, I love having you on the show. So if people want to get in touch with you, I know we’re going to have it in the show notes. Like what’s the best way to reach out to you?
Jennifer Strong: Yeah. So the best way to reach out would be to call one of our offices, um, for the phone number in orange County, or you can email [00:39:00] admin at CDA company. com and our website is, uh, CDA company. com. And then you kind of go and check those, those phone numbers out there. So.
Frances Shefter: Awesome. And I know that we will have this on the show now.
So thank you so much for being on the show.
Jennifer Strong: Thank you for inviting me. I absolutely love watching the show and you guys have done a wonderful job. So I really appreciate being on it.
Frances Shefter: You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEP® with your host Frances Shefter. Remember you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through Shefterlaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments, and sharing the show with others through YouTube, LinkedIn, Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, and more.
Bridging Gaps in Education with Jennifer Strong
Stress-Free IEP® with Frances Shefter, Episode 53
In this episode of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter speaks with Jennifer Strong, school psychologist for Cognitive Diagnostic Associates in Newport Beach, CA, a leading educational consulting firm. With over two decades of experience, Jennifer is dedicated to empowering students with diverse learning needs through personalized assessments and tailored interventions.
Tune in to the episode to hear about:
Learn more about Jennifer Strong:
Read the entire transcript of this interview below.
Watch the previous Stress-Free IEP® episode Frances references in this episode: https://shefterlaw.com/2022/04/stress-free-iep-dr-randi-brown-understanding-test-results/
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Stress-Free IEP®:
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP® experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
Watch more episodes of Stress-Free IEP®:
Connect and learn more from your host, Frances Shefter:
Read the whole transcript here:
Frances Shefter: You can get more details and catch prior episodes at www.shefterlaw.com. The Stress-Free IEP® IEP video podcast is also posted on YouTube and LinkedIn, and you can listen to episodes through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, Stitcher, and more. Now, here’s the host of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter.
Frances Shefter: Hello everyone and welcome to the show. Today’s guest, I’m really excited because Jennifer Strong is a school neuropsychologist. And if you’ve been watching the show for a while, my absolute first guest back in February of 2022 was also a school neuropsychologist. And it’s not very often that There are school based neuropsychologists, from my understanding, um, so, but Jennifer is out in Newport, California, Newport Beach, California, and works, uh, or owns Cognitive Diagnostic Associates.
So, Jennifer, I’m [00:01:00] so excited because we get to, like, talk a little bit because our first guest was New York. the first one. So now we can, like, kind of talk about how it’s a little bit different in different states.
Frances Shefter: So tell us a little about yourself. Like, how did you get into this field and what’s your background?
Jennifer Strong: Yeah, we can go coast to coast, which is really nice. First, you know, thanks for having me on. This is wonderful. Um, so a little bit about me, my background. I actually am Alaska grown. I grew up in Alaska. My parents are from California and my father was the only physician in a small fishing village in Seldovia, Alaska.
So I got to see firsthand the care and the, the amount of time and the, you know, the empathy and everything that went involved in medicine, um, from that type of lens. Um, so I then went to do an undergraduate degree at university of the Pacific and Stockton, California, cause I knew I wanted to be in sunny Southern California.
Yeah. Right.
Jennifer Strong: Um, and so then I did a sports, um, sports [00:02:00] management degree and a psychology bachelor’s, uh, double major. And then I fell in love with special ed somehow. I, I, I looked back at my small town and saw all the need that was there. Um, and then just slowly started to get into school psychology.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, it’s interesting, like how, because I wouldn’t think sports medicine and special education, you know, kind of like
Jennifer Strong: a little bit different there, but surprisingly they do because, you know, we work with adaptive physical education specialists, OTs, PTs.
And now that I know about gait, human movement, um, you know, abduction, abduction, all of that, it’s actually been a blessing in disguise because I can really have those communications. With my adaptive physical education specialist with my O. T. So it’s actually make sense. Yeah, very, very beneficial.
Frances Shefter: Because that’s one of the things like part of the reason for the show is that, you know, each of our extra [00:03:00] just, you know, our areas disciplines, even though we’re all working with the disability community.
There’s different language and different knowledge base and stuff. And so part of the reason for the show is to explain to parents like, Hey, look, you can understand it. Here’s how we can help you. But that’s I love that that. That it makes sense that knowing that part, I would say, would make your assessment.
It’s more robust, like your reports, because you know, like the full, like how to make the mental and the physical, right?
Jennifer Strong: Right. Yeah. And I didn’t really realize it till later on in my career when it kind of clicked. And I was like, hold on, like I did something really, really amazing by getting these two degrees together.
Uh, I didn’t know it in the past, but now looking at now when I can look in an AP report or a PT or, or occupational therapy report, I can really understand it better from that lens.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, that’s so cool. It’s because it’s so important. Um, understanding all, and I love that you say that I went, I actually took the family to Alaska this summer.
[00:04:00] So, Oh, nice.
Jennifer Strong: What city? Beautiful.
Frances Shefter: Um, we did a cruise. We were in Juneau. Um, Ketchikan. And I can’t think of the third one. I can’t think of the third one. We were in and out of Cal, um, Canada though, out of Vancouver. Yeah, it’s beautiful,
Jennifer Strong: that area. It
Frances Shefter: was very beautiful. Yeah,
Jennifer Strong: go back in the summer. It’s a wonderful, wonderful time.
We
Frances Shefter: were, we were there in August.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah.
Frances Shefter: So yeah, it was absolutely beautiful. Um, like until you’ve actually seen the glaciers, you know, you can’t describe them, right? And
Jennifer Strong: yeah.
Frances Shefter: So, um, that’s why I was saying very different than, uh, California. Um, so you’re in California. So I know you said you grew up in Alaska.
Frances Shefter: Like how did you work in other states also?
Jennifer Strong: Yeah, so I did all my schooling here in California. Um, and I actually have done a little bit of time being what a school psychologist in Texas. Um, we did [00:05:00] move our family there for a little bit. Uh, and we lived in Austin, Texas. So I did, I am licensed there. I don’t know if it’s current.
I should probably check into that, but I, I did take the test. I studied for Texas ed code is completely different than California ed code. Um, so they call them LSSPs. Uh, and now They actually are now called school psychologists. So there’s kind of a big victory, but they used to in the past be called licensed specialist of school psychology.
So, yeah, so now I do kind of understand Texas Ed Code slightly, but I definitely understand California Ed Code a lot more. Got it.
Frances Shefter: Which is so, you know, it’s so different because I say often, you know, I practice internationally, as I’ve said, um, and it’s federal law. And so all states and American schools in international countries have to follow the federal law, but each state interprets it slightly different or tweaks it a little bit.
Jennifer Strong: Yes, it’s very interesting to [00:06:00] follow, right? It’s very interesting to see how I feel like we’re doing a decent job following federal law for the most part. But yeah, when it gets down to the state. It’s, it’s very different. Like California, uh, in the past, you couldn’t give an IQ test to an African American student and our board, uh, we just voted on that to kind of have a memorandum to go to the California department of ed, um, and now that’s changed, right?
So it’s like different things in, in state, uh, law that changed based on case law.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, no, it was one of the things that I remember, um, looking into, cause I did have a client in California and that in California. Summer vacations. I think it’s any vacations over five days like tolls the special education timelines.
Yeah, and that’s not the same in Maryland, Maryland. It does not at all. 90 days is 90 days period. Oh, it doesn’t matter. Yeah. If it, you know, like, you can ask July 1 and that starts your, your [00:07:00] clock. It doesn’t matter that we’re not in session at all. Um, you know, if you have a meeting and, you know, June 1st, and you say, you know, they agree to assess it.
It’s an initial assessment. They have 60 days from day of consent to come to the table period. Yeah. So no break over holidays. Like, yeah, no, which makes sense because like, if not, you know, like, okay, so let’s wait two and a half months because we have summer vacation, you know, and you’re just who’s suffering the child.
Jennifer Strong: Right.
Frances Shefter: Um, so I always find it interesting that California, I don’t want to say gets away with it, but interprets it that way that it does. Cause I guess, you know, federal law is. It’s kind of silent on it. So it’s, how does, how does the state interpret that and apply it?
Jennifer Strong: Yeah, that would make sense. And I know for at least us, our spring breaks are typically Monday through Friday, five days.
So for spring break, the timeline doesn’t stop or anything, but it has to be over five days. So if it’s six days or longer than it stops. Yeah.
Frances Shefter: Which I guess, I [00:08:00] mean, in some ways I could see that totally making sense. Cause I know for me. Like over the summer, it’s not the same team, your teachers aren’t there, and so you’re going to have a summer team doing the assessment that doesn’t necessarily know the child.
Um, and not, I mean the summer team is just as, you know, qualified as everybody else, but it’s just different. Um, so you can see why it kind of makes sense. And there has been times that I’ve, like, delayed requesting the meeting because we wanted to make sure that it was the school team doing it, um, type situation.
But then there’s other times that we’re like, you know what? The school’s been delaying it long enough. Like, no, y’all need to get it done, period.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah. And I don’t know if you guys are similar. We have some verbiage called without undue delay. Okay. Similar stuff. And I don’t know if that was a state or a federal law, but it seems like there’s a fair amount of undue delay happening, uh, whatever that undo word means.
Right. Exactly. Well, it’s, you know,
Frances Shefter: it’s, it’s typical laws, right? It’s [00:09:00] vague. Yeah. It’s left up to interpretation.
Frances Shefter: Um, so, so what, like, so you’re a school neuropsychologist, you work based out of a school or are you private? Like, how does that work?
Jennifer Strong: Yeah. So I was in the school districts for many, many years and this was also a blessing in disguise because I got to see four different districts in Southern California.
Um, and so I got to make relationships and meet the, um, the special ed department and meet the school district and see how they operate and they operate all slightly differently, right? But, but similar, but different. Um, and so after that experience, uh, I decided to branch out and do private practice. So in California, um, and I think there’s one other state, you can be a licensed educational psychologist.
So you sit for your state board and ours is the board of behavioral sciences in California. Um, and then you take a test and you pass it. I went further and I actually did Dan Miller’s program, uh, kids Inc to do the extra credential, [00:10:00] uh, for the school neuropsychologist program. So it’s called an ABS and P.
Um, and so that’s what I have with that program. Um, on top of the L. E. P. So it’s just, uh, additional lens on looking at different types of memory and learning and attention and all of that.
Frances Shefter: So your private practice, you don’t work with the schools anymore? Yeah, to answer your
Jennifer Strong: question. So, so private practice.
Uh, so after the schools, um, yeah, so went into private practice and decided to open my own business. So that’s how Cognitive Diagnostic was started. that diagnostic associates was opened. Um, we’ve been open for about a year now. Um, and we operate in Orange County, California, Los Angeles and San Diego. And then we’re going to open San Francesco soon.
Um, and then hopefully go into other states. Right. Um, so I really saw a need. After working in the schools that long that, hey, we don’t have everybody under one roof. We have, if you [00:11:00] need an outside evaluation and the parents don’t agree with the report from the district, um, you have to piecemeal it together.
You have to, okay, you have to go to this psychologist. You have to go to this. Occupational therapist, and they’re not the same practice. They don’t necessarily communicate with each other the best as it could be under one house and one roof. So we have 40 employees right now and growing. And so we’ve done a wonderful job.
We just hired on a new physical therapist. We hired on a new registered nurse. Um, we have a lot of, uh, practitioners that can fill all those needs for especially our kiddos that have more, uh, impact, more needs. to be assessed. So that’s kind of how I came into it.
Frances Shefter: That’s awesome.
Frances Shefter: So you do, so then the company does private assessments.
Do you do like independent educational evaluations at public expense?
Jennifer Strong: Yeah, so we do a public expense. And so that’s part of the, the laws that parents are kind of unaware [00:12:00] of, uh, is that they are entitled to that outside evaluation at public expense. Uh, and so advocating for that to let them know they have that option, um, we, we have a few avenues.
So one, we do take insurance. So we do, if it’s a medical model evaluation that needs to be done through that channel, we can do that too. We take, you know, uh, the district will fund it, uh, in three, sometimes if there’s severe enough, or there’s a need, parents will pay privately out of pocket. And it just depends on each case by case situation.
Frances Shefter: Right. Yeah, no, that’s, that’s, it’s interesting with the IE’s, um, it’s, I’ve done a lot of talking about it and stuff and what people don’t realize, I’ve had clients come and like, well, I asked them to do an evaluation and independent and they just said no. Like, well, they’re not allowed to just say no, you know, like federal law.
They have two options. Like one, they authorize it or two, [00:13:00] they file due process against you to stand behind and say that their evaluations are, um, are proper. Right. So, and that’s like, that’s it. Um, Interestingly, it had been my experience that I had pretty much always the school has just offered a pay because it’s just, it’s easier, um, than not.
But, um, more recently I’ve actually had school districts file against my clients.
Jennifer Strong: Oh,
Frances Shefter: interesting. To say, yeah, to say that theirs, theirs was a valid, Um,
Jennifer Strong: and
Frances Shefter: unfortunately, the cost of litigation, usually my parents just drop the request because it’s cheaper for them to go pay for it themselves than to pay me to defend it and potentially not win, you know, yeah,
Jennifer Strong: yeah, that’s the cost analysis.
Uh, majority of the time that from my experience, and again, we’ve only been open a year, but within this year, most districts have approved, uh, the, there are a handful of them that have said, hey, we’re going [00:14:00] to file to defend. Um, but, you know, it, it just depends on if it’s legally defensible, right? And so we, we really try to educate our parents to say, this is kind of what’s going to happen.
Uh, sometimes it takes a while for them to respond and we tell them about the terms, you know, without undue delay. Um, and then their options just so they know, so they’re informed on what, what’s going to happen.
Frances Shefter: Yeah.
Frances Shefter: And that’s, you know, I ha I have this show and then I have my YouTube channel has over a hundred videos and that’s the whole thing to inform parents like, Hey, you don’t have to take this, you know, like here’s your remedy.
And I always say like, it’s, I don’t think the schools aren’t doing it, you know, um, in a mean way or maliciously or, you know, anything, it’s just sometimes the schools don’t even know.
Jennifer Strong: Um,
Frances Shefter: I look back to when I was a teacher, um, and a special ed coordinator, and I remember when I was going to law school and a lot of my friends in the, um, school system were like, don’t forget, your signature is right next to our signature.
Like, what’s that supposed to [00:15:00] mean? And then once I got into law school, looking at it, I was like, oh. So what we thought, because that’s what we were always taught and what the school system said to do. Wasn’t necessarily within the letter of the law, but if nobody was saying anything, we didn’t know, you know, like, we’re not gonna go research the law, you know, and parents don’t know.
Unfortunately,
Jennifer Strong: yeah, that’s an interesting point. You bring up. Yeah, you guys are our colleagues. I’ve actually had a great experience with the attorneys that represent the districts and then the also the attorneys that represent the parents. We work pretty closely with them. So you are right. They do have, there’s some pretty good attorneys on both sides of the story.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. And it’s, you know, it’s like, I always say, I, for most, for the most part, I would say most of the attorneys I work with at, or at the school system, we have a decent relationship, you know, because it’s, we respect each other. Like that’s the whole point of the law. That’s the whole point of things is like, there’s a difference of interpretation, you know, I really.
We don’t like to believe that all of our [00:16:00] hearts are in the right place of what we think is best for the child. It’s just we don’t always agree on what that should be. And so, you know, um, not that like nobody wins in litigation. I always say that, you know, nobody really wins in litigation because no matter what you’re taking so much out of everything.
Um, but unfortunately the child’s the one that loses the most, even when you win at literary, you know, in litigation. But you know, like when talking with other attorneys, it’s like, yeah, you know, like. Yeah. Okay. You think it should be this and we think it should be that. And like, here’s a law and we’ll put it in front of a judge and see which way we go.
Yeah. And a lot of times it’s not even, we don’t even have to go to litigation because we’ll come to a happy medium, you know, and just find that happy place. Um, I know for me, a lot of times what I’ve seen is that parents just don’t feel heard.
Jennifer Strong: True. Yeah. They feel totally ignored. I a hundred percent agree with you with that because looking at it from this lens, you know, having them feel heard [00:17:00] and having them understand the process speaks volumes.
Uh, and that’s what all of our practitioners in the company have been made aware of. Um, and, and it, it goes a long ways, you know, just to be transparent and have that feeling of comfort and, and all of that. A hundred percent. Right?
Frances Shefter: Yeah. And, and that’s the thing. And it’s also like, and I say, you know, knowledge is power.
We all say that. And it’s just what I say. You know, people are like, well, what do you suggest for like any new parents or somebody that just got a diagnosis is like, what do you suggest? I’m like, go educate yourself. Find parent groups with similar diagno, you know, with kids with similar diagnosis. Mm-Hmm, or just adjustability.
You know, um, in general, follow people on Instagram, YouTube, all of that, and just educate yourself because, you know, like it’s, the teachers don’t know the laws, the people in the school system don’t know the laws, you know, parents don’t know the, the teacher language, the psychologist language, like there’s so many different areas, like you were [00:18:00] saying, like with, with the sports medicine, how it helps you so much as a psychologist, an average psychologist doesn’t know All of that other, you know, the OT, the PT and all of the other stuff.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah.
Frances Shefter: Just change everything. So that advice is good.
Jennifer Strong: And also connecting with the community. So big proponent for that is, you know, you’re not in this alone, right? There’s, there’s those self help groups. There’s the community, um, connecting people with Linda Mood Bell or Orton Gillingham, or any of that, I find a lot of joy in that actually is really, really bringing the community together.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, that’s, I, I do a lot on that, is that, you know, who’s in, you know, your village, who’s in your community, and let’s build it together, because it’s, um, you know, you learn the most from parent groups. I’m in so many parent groups and Facebook. And it’s just, it’s funny because like, you know, being a parent of children with neurodiversity and being an education attorney, it’s like that finding that like, yes, I’m [00:19:00] here as a parent, you know, like I’m not here as an education attorney, but I can’t take that part of me out.
So sometimes it’ll be like, so my experience. been, but I’ve had clients. And if you want to check out a YouTube video, you know, but it’s always that fine line because I don’t want to, I don’t want people to feel that I’m in the group to, to promote my business because that’s not the reason I’m in the group because I have neurodiverse children and I learned just as much, you know, from parent, other parents as they learned from me.
And it’s just, it’s that natural environment.
Jennifer Strong: Right.
Frances Shefter: Um, but I’m also, yeah, I’m also free with that. I’m always happy to, you know, give advice or just, you know, recommendations. Obviously not legal advice. They can’t do that. And, you know, but like in the sense of like, Hey, if you want to know about PWNs, check out this video, or if you want to learn more about this, you know, To go follow this person or, you know, that type of stuff.
Jennifer Strong: And I think that is nice about having the, I appreciate [00:20:00] this podcast because it connects the community, right? So this would have never happened a long time ago where we’d have California talk, you know, West coast, East coast discussing things. So in my mind, when I’m going to connect community and I need questions answered, I’ll probably send them to you if it’s an East coast question, right?
Because, because of the state laws are so different. So that’s really nice that this can happen and you do this. So thank you. Thank
Frances Shefter: you. Yeah.
Frances Shefter: And I mean, in today’s world, it’s not like it used to be very, like, you know, we didn’t interact as much, but nowadays, like, you know, there’s so many people that are six months here, six months there, three months, you know, whatever, that there is a lot of, um, integrating like different, you know, different coasts and different, you know, everybody knows, everybody has family on the East coast and the West coast, you know, now.
So, um, Learning about it because originally people are like, well, why are you having people from California in your show? You’re in Maryland. I’m like, because they have information as well. And they had, you know, and in a lot of people, like I’m assuming [00:21:00] you just, so you just practice in California. Well, you
Jennifer Strong: for now.
Yeah. But we have a coming soon offices in Phoenix and Las Vegas and about six or seven other States. So yeah, there’s a need for our community, our school psychology community to do more private practice.
Jennifer Strong: Um, and clinical psychologists have their place in their grade, but, um, they don’t know ed code. So while we can have a clinical psych do a report, it has to be meaningful and has to integrate in the IEP and has to integrate into the law.
So I just saw that need as well. It’s like, okay, Nevada and Arizona and Texas, we all, we need more of the school psychs to do this stuff. And I was actually a big proponent of, there’s some good psychologists in Maryland, actually.
Jennifer Strong: So when I, when I talk to the people in California, I’m like, Hey, we need to open this up to make sure that if a parent needs a good evaluation in dyslexia, let’s say, and they want to choose a psychologist in Maryland, they [00:22:00] should be able to do that.
Right. Right. Um, so I’m, I’m, I’m having advocate advocacy, uh, towards that to kind of open it up to, to the community.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. No, that’s great. Cause that’s, I mean, and that’s the thing. It’s, it’s. I know there’s a lot of people that do international and state, and as we say, it’s different. Possible and you know, the thing is, is that there’s some states that they don’t have anybody period, you know, and so it’s, yeah, yeah, very few.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah, so they were at the conference this year and the directors were there from the different districts. So, uh, that’s also something on my, my mind. My radar to kind of make sure that we can help support them. You know, my, my home state,
Frances Shefter: right?
Jennifer Strong: Yeah.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. Because I mean, I know like in Utah, there’s like nobody out there to help.
And, you know, and they’re needed just as much. And it’s, you know, people are like, Oh, well, it’s a smaller school district. They [00:23:00] don’t have the money and this and that. But they’re getting federal funds and
Jennifer Strong: not having
Frances Shefter: the money is not an excuse. Correct. Like, they’re legally required to do certain things and provide certain things.
I mean, they don’t have to go overboard, crazy, you know, develop a program just specific for one child, but they have to have options available to support. And they can’t just say, well, we don’t have the money, we don’t have to do that because that doesn’t work.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah.
Frances Shefter: Um, so like what, so I know you’re saying like in a community.
So what’s like, what else is going on? Like, um, so you’re branching out. That is so exciting to hear like a year in and like you’re growing so big. That’s so exciting. Yes. Um, yeah. So how, like, how is that, how does that work?
Frances Shefter: So if people are like, oh, wait, I might need. A private evaluation and like the, like, I love the idea that you do all of it because that’s an issue we have here often is like, okay, so the OT has to do this, the physical therapist, and the psychologist, which they all talk a little bit, but it’s not as [00:24:00] full comprehensive report with everything in, like, how does that work?
in your organization.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah. So growing is a wonderful thing. Uh, so it’s, it’s, it works very well.
Jennifer Strong: So depending on the need of the child, uh, and what type, what the previous IEPs and the documents have said in the past, we’re kind of looking at that and analyzing what is needed. And sometimes we work closely with lawyers to see, you know, for example, What’s going on?
What do what do we need to help support this kiddo? Right? Or what? How? How is how is the district failed to provide fate, which is the free, you know, the free appropriate public education. Um, so we compile a team together. So it’s a school psychologist, a speech path, an O. T. An adapted physical education specialist altogether.
And then they do their own independent reports. But there they are together. So it is kind of like this is report one of four. Um, and and so then they collaborate as a [00:25:00] team to kind of decide what would be in the best interest of the student.
Frances Shefter: And then do they I’m assuming you guys testify if needed as expert witnesses.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah. Yeah. Everyone of us. Yeah. So, if needed, we can go on the stand if, if it goes, if it goes that far, sometimes, you know, just mediation, but if it does go to due process and you have to testify.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, I like that because I don’t think I mean I we have lots of great of everything But I don’t know I’m trying to think it I don’t like I don’t know of any that do all of it You know, it’s us.
It’s such a great, yeah, no, it’s just like there’s a need.
Frances Shefter: So hopefully you’ll spread nationwide. . Yeah. And that’s
Jennifer Strong: the plan, right? Yeah. Um, that, that is the plan. So Arizona and, and Nevada will be next for that to help support. Yeah. That is awesome.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. I love that. So then those are the, so you’re in the areas and I know, we’ll, we’ll probably put it in the show notes.
We’ll go into a little bit more specifics of the areas that you’re in and people to contact you. Yeah. Um, so like what.
Frances Shefter: Like, [00:26:00] I don’t know, um What could you suggest, I’m just trying to think of like to parents, like most of our listeners are parents and caregivers or children, like what, are there any pointers you could give to them of like what to look for when, you know, when a school psychologist does the evaluation and they’re, they just don’t feel it’s right or things like that to, to get the school to approve the IEE.
Jennifer Strong: Um, so great question. So I guess it would depend on where they are in the process, right? Some parents. Or have said, you know, I’ve requested an evaluation. The school just keeps saying, no, we’re just gonna put in research based interventions. But they don’t, you know, they try, yeah, but they don’t really track and there’s no data to support it.
So I’m always educating parents on, you know, their rights. You know, you have 15 days to respond with an assessment plan for your approval and signature. And then in California you have 60 days to test.
Jennifer Strong: Um, so I would advise parents to make the [00:27:00] relationships with the school, make that relationship with your principal and your school psychologist, because those are the two people that run the school for the most part, right?
Assistant principals and all of them, if it’s a large school. Um, but make those relationships and, and try to have an open dialogue about what you’re seeing. Um, and if it, it doesn’t quite, um, you know, mommy moms have mom gut, right? You get that mommy gut. So if you go through the assessment and you’re getting mommy gut, you gotta trust it.
Right. Um, so one make that relationship with the school staff, uh, to make them feel somewhat comfortable, right? Say, Hey, I got these concerns from my kiddo. At the same time, if you’re getting that mom gut, that’s when you kind of need to call us to make sure and double check. And we’re, we’re the ones that give that outside double assessment to make sure.
Frances Shefter: Right. Yeah. And that’s what I say all the time. Like, but I say parent gut. Cause you know, even the dads and even, you know, like foster parents and even, you know, like [00:28:00] caregiver, it’s like all kinds of all caregivers. Like we just have that instinct. Like, yes, mom gut is different than everybody else’s, but like, we all have it, like just something’s not right here and you can tell automatically and you feel it and trust it.
Um, you know, it’s hard because. You know, especially newer parents that, you know, like they don’t know they have, they have no idea what they’re comparing it to. Like, is it normal for my kids to talk like this or not? You don’t know. But if something’s nagging at you, like trust it and reach out, talk to somebody.
Um, yeah. Like one of the things I offer is I offer, it’s called a strategy session. So it’s not like a normal consultation. It’s when the clients get to speak with me for an hour about what’s going on and what the issues are. And we can come up with a plan of action. So it’s like, you don’t have to know what you want or what you think you need.
It’s like, something’s nagging at you and something’s not right. And something the school said doesn’t seem right. Call and book a strategy session and we can talk through. And sometimes it’s like, you know what? Just go back to the school and say X, Y, Z, [00:29:00] and that should solve your issue. If it doesn’t call us back, but that like, sometimes that’s just all it is.
It’s like, You needing to learn the terminology that you need to use for the school. Um,
Jennifer Strong: yeah, that’s great advice for the parents as well. Kind of knowing what to say for sure.
Frances Shefter: Right, exactly. Learn what to say, and that’s going back to the knowledge and, and of course, always put it in writing, you know, yeah, I do
Jennifer Strong: say that as well.
I say, follow up with an email, um, and document it.
Frances Shefter: Yep, exactly because then it’s you know, like per our conversation yesterday It’s my understanding that xyz and list it all out and respond because then if nothing else you have that Well, they they didn’t respond to say it was wrong. Correct. Yeah, you know, so it’s right Yeah, which is it’s it’s sad that you have to think like prepare for litigation and everything you do um, but unfortunately, that’s you know, it’s kind of Hey It’s kind of what you have to do because, you know, like it just, you have to be able [00:30:00] to follow what’s going on and see what’s going on and have it in writing.
Because you might not even need to ever get to litigation, but like a central office person, that’s what I say often, is bringing an attorney to meetings, at least around here, bring central office in. And central office will look at stuff and be like, no, no school. You’re not doing that.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah. Similar here too.
They have program specialists and different types of, um, uh, jobs that they, they come in and sit in the meetings.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s interesting.
Frances Shefter: You say that to align yourself with the principal, cause it’s so true. I say all the time that the principal, the principal makes or breaks the school. And, uh, and especially the special ed department.
Yeah, and how the principal sees special ed like you can just tell automatically like I know immediately when I walk into a school Like this is gonna be a battle because I can tell the way the principal is acting, you know I’ve had I’ve had principals that like literally you can see the fear in the [00:31:00] teachers face when they go to open their mouth You know, and it’s like, clearly that’s what it is.
Um, and it’s frustrating. Cause like those principles, like you’re not helping anybody like that, you know, get off your power horse, you know, like, it’s just, that’s not what it’s about. Like focus on the child.
Jennifer Strong: And hopefully we can help kind of ease the nerves. You know, and that is at least part of my, my goal for the company is to, if you guys do see that, and there is that unequal amount of power to use your negotiation strategies.
Right. A lot of our psychologists in California have taken a class called facilitated IUP training, which, uh, Joyce and Oh, cool. Yeah, little there in Tennessee, actually. So Joyce and Doug little own the company and they train all of these departments. So it’s kind of like conflict resolution strategies, but you are a hundred percent right.
If the, if the principal’s wonderful, it trickles down to the rest of the school. Yeah. Um, and, and the parents can [00:32:00] feel that. So making that relationship with the parent and the psychologists are great because things happen at the district level. Right? Yeah. That’s where the paperwork happens. You can still have a relationship with your, the teacher that’s teaching your child.
Right? And it can be respectful. Yeah.
Frances Shefter: Right. And that’s why I say all the time. It’s like, disagreeing isn’t necessarily adversarial, you know, and that’s like, I don’t, I’ve heard, you know, other attorneys or advocates that come in and they’re like, you need to do this. If you need to do that, you need to do this.
And I’m like, that’s not getting anywhere. Cause then as soon as you go in that adversarial, like the other side pulls up their defenses, you know, Yeah. In that sense. And so it’s kind of go in with. Like we’re talking about this child. I have one client love him to death. She always brings a big picture, an eight by 10 picture of her child and puts it on the, on the table in all the IEP meetings.
I love that. That should be mandatory. Right? Like and it was funny because like the last meeting we went to somebody’s like, oh, is is that him? And we’re like, okay, first of all, you shouldn’t be saying that in a [00:33:00] meeting about this child. But like, yes, that’s my child, you know, um, but like, it’s, you know, remembering, like, we’re not talking about this name, you know, we’re talking about this child right here.
Like, and it’s a cute, fun picture. It’s not like a little stuff, you know, like it’s just, um, but I like, I keep saying that I need to remind, I’ll tell all my clients to start doing that, you know, because it brings that human element in exactly. Exactly. We’re talking about a kid here. We’re not talking about, you know, it’s not who’s right, who’s wrong.
It’s not, you know, oh, well, you know, they say we can’t do this or we can do that. It’s, you know, this is what this child needs, period. That’s what it’s here for. That’s what the law, it’s individual for this child.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah, yeah. And then coming to small agreements, because you’re right, if you come in with guns blazing or vice versa, the principles that way, the negotiation will, will be hard to be reached.
Frances Shefter: Right.
Jennifer Strong: Exactly.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. And that’s why a lot of times with some principles, I’m like, I’ll tell you right now, you’re not going to do not try to go to an IEP [00:34:00] meeting without an attorney. You need central office there.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah, I work for some wonderful principals, and then I work for some principals that are not so wonderful.
Um, but I will wager to guess that the schools that have the great principals have less, uh, concerns with special ed. Oh yeah, definitely.
Frances Shefter: And you can see the difference when a principal changes.
Jennifer Strong: You
Frances Shefter: know, once like this, it’s a fabulous school. And then all of a sudden, like, I have five clients from that school.
Yeah. And it’s like, Oh, a new principal took over. Like that explains things.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah,
Frances Shefter: which is sad and it’s hard, but it’s You know, a lot of it’s also, you know, how you were trained and how you were brought up to think about special ed. Um, unfortunately there’s still a large group of educators that think they should be in the back rooms, you know, seeing not heard back in the trailers, you know, what it was way back when, um, instead of like, no, they should be up and integrated, like, um,
Jennifer Strong: right.
And I, that was the [00:35:00] benefit about seeing four different districts is some of them. had a lot of involvement with principals and some didn’t. Some principals were writing prior written notices and some weren’t, right? Um, so it just depended on the structure of the district on how they formulated the org, the org chart, right?
On who was doing what. So, uh, that’s interesting too, but I agree with you if, if the principals aren’t quite fully vested with special ed. And
Frances Shefter: if they don’t know what’s supposed to be getting, being, getting done, you know, that’s the other thing is like, you know, you have a special ed coordinator that doesn’t exactly know what they’re doing and doesn’t know the laws.
They’re not doing things right. And if the principal has no idea either, so there’s no oversight there. So you don’t even know that your special ed department.
Jennifer Strong: Right. And then the psychologist needs to know their stuff. Yeah.
Frances Shefter: Right.
Jennifer Strong: And if they don’t, then we need more education.
Frances Shefter: Exactly. Exactly. Right. That’s what I’m
Jennifer Strong: saying.
Frances Shefter: There’s another education attorney and we were joking around. It was a long time ago, a [00:36:00] couple of years ago. We were like, yeah, we should do a class on like, how to not get sued by the parents. You know, just simple basics. Like what to not say. Yeah. Say, Oh, well we don’t have the money for that. Like that’s not legal.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And surprisingly, I have, there has been schools that have said that even when I’m in the meeting, you know, has said certain things. And I’ve had like attorneys go and say, um, yeah, Ms. Shefter, can you and your client give us a minute, you know,
Jennifer Strong: like, and they, you know, have gone and
Frances Shefter: said them.
And I
Jennifer Strong: think it, you know, this is my philosophy.
Jennifer Strong: I think it might be beneficial for the teachers when they’re going through school to have more training in special ed. Oh, yeah. Yeah, because they don’t know and they’re just coming from the heart because they’re teachers and sometimes they misspeak. But, you know, when it’s when it gets to that level, there’s things that you can and can’t say.
Right.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, I remember when I, so I did my undergrad and early childhood when I went back after teaching a couple of years to get my [00:37:00] master’s in special ed. I remember, like, sitting in the classes and I’m like. Why do they not teach this in gen ed? Like, this is just good teaching, you know? And I just wonder, like, if more gen ed teachers had this special ed training, like, I don’t want to say that the IEPs wouldn’t be needed as much, but they wouldn’t be needed as much, because kind of, if you integrate this stuff in your gen ed, Regular best teaching practices, then you don’t need an IEP to say to clarify directions or to use a picture schedule or stuff because you just have that naturally in your classroom and it’s not like.
It’s not like, oh, you can’t use that for gen ed, it’s only a special ed thing. Like, it’s, it’s for kids, period.
Jennifer Strong: Yeah, it comes down to the foundation. So, we will do our best to advocate here in our state for that, however that looks. Yeah, but with behavior too, like, you know, kiddos having behavior sometimes too.
teachers aren’t versed on it.
Frances Shefter: Right. Or where it’s coming from. [00:38:00] Cause I have, I, you know, I’ve said it over and over again. Like there’s two reasons that you have kids with this misbehaving class. It’s one, they’re so far behind, they have no clue what’s going on and they don’t want anybody else to realize that.
Or two, they’re so far ahead, they’re bored out of their minds. And like need to find something to entertain themselves with. Correct. That’s when you have the behavior issues. And so you can do an FBA and, and all of that, you know, the functional behavior assessment, all this other stuff, but if you’re not getting to the root of the problem, you’re not, you know, you’re never going to change the behavior because it’s not a behavior issue.
It’s, you know, what’s, what’s the real underlying issue that’s going on. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
Frances Shefter: So, um, this has been so awesome. Thank you so much. Um, I love having you on the show. So if people want to get in touch with you, I know we’re going to have it in the show notes. Like what’s the best way to reach out to you?
Jennifer Strong: Yeah. So the best way to reach out would be to call one of our offices, um, for the phone number in orange County, or you can email [00:39:00] admin at CDA company. com and our website is, uh, CDA company. com. And then you kind of go and check those, those phone numbers out there. So.
Frances Shefter: Awesome. And I know that we will have this on the show now.
So thank you so much for being on the show.
Jennifer Strong: Thank you for inviting me. I absolutely love watching the show and you guys have done a wonderful job. So I really appreciate being on it.
Frances Shefter: You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEP® with your host Frances Shefter. Remember you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through Shefterlaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments, and sharing the show with others through YouTube, LinkedIn, Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, and more.
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