In this episode of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter speaks with Naomi Matanick, a pediatric occupational therapist specializing in infant and child development, sensory-integration therapy, and surf therapy for kids. Naomi is the founder of Ocean Waves Therapy, based in Southern California, where she utilizes the ocean environment to aid children in achieving developmental goals such as gross motor skills, emotional regulation, confidence-building, and self-autonomy.
Tune in to the episode to hear about:
Surf Therapy for Kids: Naomi Matanick, a pediatric occupational therapist, founded a surf therapy company to aid children’s development.
Unique Emotional Regulation: The ocean environment offers distinct benefits for emotional regulation, including negative ions and water pressure.
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP® experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
Voiceover ( 00:00:04): Welcome to Stress-Free IEP®. You do not need to do it all alone with your host, Frances Shefter, Principal of Shefter Law. You can get more details and catch prior episodes at www.shefterlaw.com. The Stress-Free IEP® video podcast is also posted on youtube and linkedin and you can listen to episodes through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher and more. Now here’s the host of Stress-Free IEP®. Frances Shefter.
Frances Shefter ( 00:00:42): Hi, everyone and welcome to the show. I am so excited about today’s show because before I met Naomi, I didn’t even know this was a thing. So today we have Naomi Matanic. No, Matt Nick. Sorry, I knew I was going to get it wrong who is an occupational therapist. And I’m going to let her tell you about how her therapy is different than everybody else’s.
Naomi Matanick( 00:01:10): Yeah. Thank you, Frances so much for having me on. I love what you’re doing for the community and for families. Um And so by trade, I’m a occupational therapist. I specialize in pediatrics anywhere from infants through early early adolescents. Um and have since started a surf therapy company for kids. So that’s using surfing the ocean, the beach as a therapeutic tool or also could be known as a therapeutic modality to help kids achieve anything they need to achieve. They want to achieve across the board from, you know, gross motor skills to emotional regulation um to building confidence and, and really self autonomy.
Frances Shefter ( 00:01:54): So how does it work with self, with emotional regulation?
Naomi Matanick( 00:01:58): That part’s cool. I can really geek out on that part because, you know, a lot of times when we see it in a clinic as an occupational therapist, one of our really big goals is to help kids get physically regulated and emotionally regulated so that we can start working on a higher level skill development. Um And that can take a lot of effort, right? Um But the ocean is amazing because first of all, there’s actual physical properties in the ocean. Um There are negative ions that are produced from the ocean that go into the air and actually increase dopamine and serotonin. But that’s just one thing random fun fact. Um But the other thing in terms of if we’re looking at the nervous system and our sensory systems, the pressure of the water on the skin actually activates muscle receptors that send calming signals to the brain. Um And then the movement, especially if a child is moving on a surfboard and they don’t even have to be standing up. It’s just the rush of movement provides so much information to our balance and equilibrium. Centers that, that also increases body awareness and causes um emotional and physical regulation to the body.
Frances Shefter ( 00:03:07): That is so cool. I didn’t even think about that but the pressure that makes sense because a lot of kids need that sensory of that pressure. Yeah, that is so cool. And it’s,
Naomi Matanick( 00:03:17): yeah, go
Frances Shefter ( 00:03:18): ahead. I was, I was just gonna say it’s nature, you know, like how can nature be wrong? Yeah,
Naomi Matanick( 00:03:23): it’s just naturally doing those things. Um So laugh and kind of joke that the ocean in terms of regulation is doing my job for me. Um Because I just get to watch it happen literally right in front of my eyes,
Frances Shefter ( 00:03:35): right? Which makes sense. I mean, I’ve always been an ocean girl. I’m a beach girl when I can be there. I’m there. Um I’ve lived in Florida for a lot of years but uh you know, I never like, I just love the, the, the rhythm of the ocean and the sound of the rhythm of the ocean. Um Never even thought of the, how it helps with the body regulation. That is so cool. So I know like, so surf therapy, like, I know people are probably like, you’re just being lazy and playing in the ocean, right? Yeah, I know what is good so well, like why? Like, so it’s obviously it’s not like how does it work? Like, what are the myths that, you know, that people have about the ocean therapy?
Naomi Matanick( 00:04:15): Yeah, I think one, and it’s funny you say that because I think people not knowing what it is yet, they kind of joke. They’re like, oh, ha ha. You’re like working. Um, and, um, but some myths I would say one is that it’s the same thing as a surf lesson, which there’s definitely surf company, surf therapy companies, um, that have that as a part of their structure. Um, but it’s, it’s so different than a surf lesson. It’s so different than me putting a kid on a board and having certain expectations of performance. Um because that’s a big thing I wanna kind of distinguish is it’s not a pressure of how you’re supposed to be performing on the surfboard.
Frances Shefter ( 00:05:03): God and not your form and stuff. So it’s just more of just being on the surfboard and, and happy and comfortable. Right?
Naomi Matanick( 00:05:9): Yeah. And we’ll work on skills, right? We’ll work on paddling, we’ll work on, you know, spatial awareness. Am I in the correct position on the board? Um We’ll even work on popping up. But those aren’t, I mean, the surfing is kind of a by product learning about surfing, but it’s not the end goal,
Frances Shefter ( 00:05:27): right? And I, I mean, I would think it, for kids, like it gives them a why, like I know for a lot of kids, especially, you know, kids on the spectrum or kids that, you know, that have that sensory needs. They’re like, why am I doing? This, why is this making a difference? Whereas if you’re learning how to surf, you don’t even think about like that. This is occupational therapy. I’m just learning how to surf.
Naomi Matanick( 00:05:46): Yeah. And that’s a great part of it too. A lot of kids, especially as they get older, they become more self aware. And then, you know, if they’re going into that traditional setting, there’s a little bit of a stigma that they feel but there’s, there are kids on my caseload who um we don’t even tell them. It’s ot we just say, hey, we’re, we’re surfing and, and I get them to do so much more for me, which is great. Um So, so that’s, yeah, that’s one area that is a misconception in the differences. Um Yeah, I would say another one is maybe what you brought up is people thinking, you know, surf therapy is almost like going on a surf retreat or something. Um And so just recognizing that it’s a form of therapy, I like to call it a therapeutic modality. Just because if you are going into a clinic space, there’s certain tools that we use for certain cases. Um And so to me, I view it as really just another tool that we can use to help kids,
Frances Shefter ( 00:06:48): right? Um How did you get into it? Like what, what, how did you find the surf therapy and how did you, you know, get into this, this for you?
Naomi Matanick( 00:06:58): Yeah, I, you know, I started learning how to surf as an adult and have, but I’ve always loved the water and have always thought at some point that I wanted to do something for my job in the water, but I had no idea what that would be or how I would get there. Um, especially doing something completely different, like occupational therapy. And then I found out I discovered a surf therapy company in 2020 they work primarily with adults and mental health, which right now is definitely one of the more common avenues for surf therapy. Um But I didn’t care that it was such a different field. I was so excited to re to find out that surf therapy existed that I contacted their CEO and some by some magic, she’s like, she runs like multi projects here and in South America and somehow I got a hold of her and, you know, it was basically like, I wanna learn everything about this. So they, one of their bases is in San Diego and I’m in Los Angeles. And so I actually participated in one of their six weeks of therapy programs myself just to get a sense of what it was. Then I took their training on what it means to be a surf therapist. Um And then have since then had to kind of curate it to my specific population. Um I always said at the beginning, like, I knew how to be a surfer and I knew how to be an ot but then learning how to combine those was definitely a learning
Frances Shefter ( 00:08:26): curve. I love it. I mean, it’s kind of like, because me as a former special ed teacher and a lawyer and now combining the two, like it just, it just brings such a different level. Right?
Naomi Matanick( 00:08:37): Yeah, it does level of understanding. I mean, even hearing you say that it’s like, I think that’s so powerful having your background and merging those two as a lawyer and understanding, you know, the special needs community. And um yeah, this is how I feel with surf therapy is it’s just this amazing tool that I now have access to.
Frances Shefter ( 00:9:00): Yeah, it’s so awesome. And I know like a lot of people like explain ot to me because a lot of people are like, oh my kid doesn’t need ot I don’t know what ot is, what do I need it for?
Naomi Matanick( 00:9:11): Right. Yeah. Ot it’s like some elusive term, right? Because it’s like people don’t really know a lot about it. But um yeah, one of the best ways to explain it would be, you know, achieving functional needs. Um We define occupation as anything you need or want to do. So then if you’re looking at a child, their primary occupations would be eating, dressing academics, play, socializing with peers, competing in sports, maybe the arts or music. Um And then if there’s anything that either they were born with where we’re seeing developmental delays um or it could be an accident um that then causes developmental challenges where they can’t participate functionally in those things most efficiently, we’re helping bridge the gaps for them. So I like to look at something we call the pyramid of learning. It’s a, you know, I’m very visual, but it’s a triangle. And at the bottom, we have our nervous system. So our sensory systems, um you know, our sense of body awareness, balance, movement, vision, hearing. And then above that, we have motor skill development and then cognitive development and emotional regulation. And so if there’s anything in the pyramid that’s breaking down functionally for a child that’s making it hard for them to participate. Um We’re looking at those different levels of the pyramid and seeing how we can strengthen those areas so that they can then achieve um success in, you know, whatever area is challenging for them
Frances Shefter ( 00:10:48): that is such, I love that definition. It’s so funny because every ot I talk to and physical therapist, like I always ask that question and it’s always a little bit different, which is great because it is so complex, you know. Um and it’s, it’s like I know you said a lot about sensory and I know that’s when I know in the school system, OTs are used a lot for handwriting and sensory. Um So like how does that sensory um integration work? Like how does, how does that impact how people function or how kids function.
Naomi Matanick( 00:11:19): Yeah, absolutely. So, sensory integration, I would argue that if you don’t have sensory integration, you’re going to struggle with every other higher level skill, including strength coordinations, um executive function. Uh because really sensory integration is we have eight senses, we have five that are really common, like sight and touch and taste and smell. We have three internal body sensations that give us a sense of where our body is in space in the room. Um You know how to coordinate our body movement. And so all of that information is coming outside the body and into the body and then it’s going up to the brain to be processed. So then we can have a motor action. Um But if we have a motor action that also ties into cognition, um because the way we really process movement in the body is the way the brain crosses connections in the brain to then have um more organized thoughts. Um So all of that, to say sensory integration, I, I feel like it’s really the framework for function. Um If you’re not getting enough information or you’re getting too much information, um then it’s gonna be really difficult for the body to efficiently move and think and plan and organize.
Frances Shefter ( 00:12:41): That makes sense. And that’s, that’s, you know, I’m just thinking like along the lines, like kids get overstimulated. Um And that’s, you know, that’s what’s happening and that’s when they have that breakdown. Um And I can see it being understated also is that’s when the kids are going and seeking for that, you know, the touch and they’re, they’re constantly touching or hugging or things like that. So how does Yeah. Uh
Naomi Matanick( 00:13:05): Oh Yeah. No, I mean, I was gonna say to that point it’s, and then, you know, thinking about even as an adult, the moments where we’ve been overstimulated or where we’re really tired and then say there’s a demand that’s being placed on us. Um You know, think about how that’s impacting you emotionally and your capacity to move through that and it’s the same thing for them, but like constantly cause their nervous system isn’t organized
Frances Shefter ( 00:13:31): right now. It makes sense. And so like I’m thinking about like, I know we talked about the pressure of the ocean and stuff in that sense is how does it, how do you think it worked? Like, is there a type of child that surf therapy would work for? And a type that it wouldn’t work for or is it kind of how does that work?
Naomi Matanick( 00:13:51): Yeah. You know, it, it, it’s, there’s definitely kids that are going to be more prone to being really excited about it. You know, I have kids who, as soon as it’s presented to them, they can’t wait to get in the ocean, they can’t wait to get on the surfboard. And those are kids that, you know, we’re gonna tend to be truly more out in the ocean working on some of those more traditional surfing skills while targeting whatever other therapeutic goals they have. And then there’s kids I’ve had who they’re terrified and they’re not at all interested in going to the ocean. And I do a lot of adapting and scaling. So if a kid wants to be on a boogie board instead of a surfboard, that’s great. We’re still getting a lot of the same benefits. I’ve spent an entire surf session where the surfboard is sitting just on the edge of the water and we’re practicing balance or we’re practicing spatial awareness or um you know, impulse control um and scaling up to where a child is more comfortable. I have had it where some kiddos, they just are completely opposed to the idea. Um even doing some of like the scaling they’re not interested in. And at that point, I do have a discussion with parents on, you know, maybe to the point that it’s upsetting a child that much, it may not be the right fit but, but physically and emotionally and cognitively what kids are working with, I would say. Um it can be a good fit. I still advocate for the clinic space. I know sometimes in these nontraditional settings, there seems to be this like division, but I don’t feel that way at all. I think sometimes kids could benefit more from the traditional space if they have um really intensive ot goals that they’re having to work through. I and some of my kids, they’ll do a hybrid where they see traditional ot and then come to serve therapy
Frances Shefter ( 00:15:59): that I love that. So I’m like, listening because it’s what’s the right fit because it’s not, it’s not every, you know, for everybody the same with, like, you know, psychotherapy, like, is the therapist, is there a good fit between the therapist and the client? And I like for me, a very good provider is able to recognize this might not be the best fit. And let’s let’s find the best fit for you as a family. Um And I like that it’s, it’s child, like I’m going back that it’s child driven basically, like they kind of right.
Naomi Matanick( 00:16:33): It, it, it really is and that’s been my goal in creating it too is that it’s child driven. So I there has been a lot of education that’s need to happen with parents. Um You know, because I think parents get excited and they see the surf environment and they, you know, it’s easy to forget that it’s, you know, also there a therapy environment um and they may be pushing the child to, to do more than they’re doing. Um But that’s really not the point I’m following the lead of the child,
Frances Shefter ( 00:17:04): right? And then working in what needs to be worked in and
Naomi Matanick( 00:17:07): slowly challenging.
Frances Shefter ( 00:17:10): So what like, for example, what is different um than teaching, just teaching surfboard, like when you’re doing an ot session, what would be kind of different?
Naomi Matanick( 00:17:20): Yeah. So some things that are going to be different is, you know, I think when you’re teaching surfing, you’re looking a lot at just the skill set or the physical needs that need to happen in order to teach surfing. Um So I’m, I’m looking at those components, like I said, I am teaching some components of learning how to surf. Um But because child led, we’re also looking at the thought of co regulation, which co regulation is, um the ability to, to see where the child is. Um are they frustrated? Are they angry? Are they anxious? Um Are they feeling calm and helping, you know, helping really, um call attention to that, but then help them get back to a regulated state. So in a typical surf session, you’re not going to have somebody who’s there co regulating to the emotions that are happening at that time. Um The other thing is I try to put a heavier emphasis on certain areas if I know that that’s the specific goal of the child. So for example, if a child needs help with um coordinating both sides of their body together, I’m, I’m really gonna make sure that we’re working on a lot of paddling in the water. Um So it’s kind of putting emphasis on specific needs or core strength. For example, I’ll do more core based activities for a child that we’re trying to increase core strength.
Frances Shefter ( 00:18:51): Right. That makes sense. That’s so cool. Like, I love this, this is so easy and I love the co regulation because I guess that’s it. Like, so if a kid, a child is having, I’m just thinking like a child having anxiety about going out on the surfboard. So, like, that’s where you come in and can help with that emotional regulation of working through.
Naomi Matanick( 00:19:10): Yes. Exactly. Making sure that we’re regulated. Um, and, and attending to that emotion before we get out into that unpredictable environment. Um, or sometimes even working on it while we’re sitting in the water.
Frances Shefter ( 00:19:25): Yeah, that makes sense because it’s, I mean, it’s, if you think about it taking, you know, taking a step back, even as adults, like if you were dis regulated, you know, so adults that don’t know the neuro diverse community, like you’re pissed off, you’re angry, you know, like you really think about it. Like, are you receiving any information at all when you’re that angry? And like, no, we’re not, right? As adults as adults, we’re not. Right. So, I imagine for the kids that, like, if they’re anxious about something, like they’re anxious about a test or something like that, they’re not going to do well on the test because it’s just that anxiety, their brain’s not functioning.
Naomi Matanick( 00:20:05): Yeah. And that reminds me as you’re speaking about that, you know, I mentioned that surf therapy we work and ot occupational therapy, you know, we’re working on sensory motor, emotional regulation and cognition. That’s the cognitive piece that you’re talking about, right? Because a lot of times if there’s challenges with understanding how our body moves and operates, like I said, there’s challenges of understanding how to um manage our thought process and organization of our cognitive capacities. So if we have kids who are in this fight or flight response, which is kind of like that poor emotional regulation, um they can’t access timing, thinking, organizing impulse control, which is a lot of times what they’re being asked, like, as you know, as a previous educator, they’re being asked to do that in the academic setting. Um So that’s why we do emotional regulation first,
Frances Shefter ( 00:20:57): right? No, that makes sense. And that’s where the masking comes in. I’m sure a lot of um yeah, because especially with our A SD kids that they have to, I have to conform. I have to conform. I have to do this and it’s a challenge. I love to see therapy. I’m like, I want to get on a plane and fly my daughter out and try it because I think she would be so into it. I mean, she loves boogie boarding, you know, like, so I could just so see how it could help her. Um But yeah, I mean, she goes to, she goes to physical therapy and does um um Alexander technique which is similar. It’s, it’s still the, the I don’t know if you know about Alexander to,
Naomi Matanick: I’m not familiar with it.
Frances Sjefter: Ok. So there’s one of my previous shows with Gabrielle Czajak. Um, who does it? But it’s a lot of the sensory and the connecting the mind and the body. Um, so it’s similar. Yeah, but it’s just like that different. It helps to, you know, just like I see the difference. I can imagine what the surfing would do is just see the difference of, as you said, some kids don’t even know it’s occupational therapy. You know, you’re not going to a therapy, you’re learning how to surf and, and it’s a way of making it happen and getting kids to naturally learn how to regulate in a fun environment basically.
Naomi Matanick( 00:22:19): Yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s also the hope is that it feels playful for them. Um because a lot of times, you know, kids who struggle with various challenges, whether that’s neurodiversity or some other capacity of challenge, many things I feel like in their life, feel, feel there’s a lack of play and ease and so wanting to create an environment where they can feel confident and, and have play,
Frances Shefter ( 00:22:46): right? So I’m thinking like, OK, because for me and what I see often for occupational therapy is just what we see in the school systems, you know, the handwriting and the sensory stuff for parents that you are looking outside of the schools and what like what would be indicators that you know what occupational therapy might be a good idea for your child.
Naomi Matanick( 00:23:10): Yeah. And it’s important to kind of distinguish between the school and different settings because the school, you know, the I A PSO T is going to be academic based schools only which is, that’s great for that environment because there’s a need for that. Um But then the things I think that get overlooked because there’s maybe just not enough time or it’s not in the structure of the academic environment. Um Are those sensory integration needs or maybe those more intense motor skill needs or emotional regulation needs? So, um you know, I think the way to answer that question would be to look at what people come to me with as their primary concerns. So primary concerns a lot of times are the emotional regulation pieces. Oh, my child gets frustrated really easily or um has trouble with impulse control. Um Or um there’s a lot of meltdowns when certain things are happening. You know, there’s inflexibility in thinking or they’re, they’re not, you know, there may be hesitant to try new things, you know, maybe in the physical environment or with peers, those are some emotional things that I get, you know, as primary concerns. Um Some other concerns might be, oh, they’re really sensitive to like noisy environments or touch and textures or movement or, you know, or they’re seeking so much movement that it’s interfering with their day to day routine. Those are the sensory, you know, indicators and then some motor indicators might be, oh, there’s just trouble with like coordinations, maybe it’s while they’re playing sports or they seem to be kind of sluggish and that could indicate decreased core strength. And then again, on the other side of the motor scale, you know, all they want to do is be on a jungle gym. So these are, and all of those things that I just mentioned are fine, right? We’re allowed to have all these human emotions and we’re allowed to move or is it still? But it’s when it’s impacting function that we want to work on it,
Frances Shefter ( 00:25:15): right? That makes sense and the emotions because I’m just thinking like um like parents don’t need to go get a diagnosis, they don’t need if they just like if they’re thinking, you know what I just feel like my child is a little explosive or is just over, you know, whatever has meltdowns um gets completely deregulated. So would they come see you, do you do an assessment? Like what does that look like?
Naomi Matanick( 00:25:38): Yeah, so they, yeah, they can come see me for an assessment and that would be a very traditional ot based assessment. So I am specialized in sensory integration. So we would do standardized testing if needed, which looks at all of our motor skills. Um And then there’s something called clinical observation, which is where we look at all of the sensory systems to see how those are functioning. Um They would fill out something called a sensory profile for the child. And then from there after the evaluation, I do also offer traditional occupational therapy. So then from that evaluation, then, you know, between the parents and I we decide what the best fit is if it’s, you know, for traditional ot if it’s surf therapy, if it’s for both and like you mentioned, not always needing to go and get a diagnosis. Um Yeah, I think it’s, you know, I understand why people get diagnosis, diagnoses, you know, for funding or insurance coverage. But, but with the diagnosis or not, we’re still addressing what’s, what’s being impacted functionally, right? So where OT comes in is um you know, a diagnosis is really, I don’t know, not as important in the world of OT because I’m looking at symptoms and function.
Frances Shefter ( 00:27:01): Yeah. And I hate, I hate diagnosis. I hate the codes. I am so against all of that because it’s, it’s, every child is different. And the one thing I’ve been noticing so much lately is a DH D autism and anxiety and they’re comorbid like, you know, like you never have one without the other and like, why do we have to label it? You know what I mean? Because it’s similar symptoms and all of that, that’s just very similar. Yeah. Address the symptoms and how we address the symptoms. But I know for the IEPs the way I DEA is written, you know, you have to have the code and for other services, but like the code doesn’t matter, like you don’t have to put a label on it. You don’t need the label, like you’re having sensory issues. That’s ok. Let’s address that right.
Naomi Matanick( 00:27:53): Yeah, exactly. Yeah. As far as being the ot it’s, you know, I’m looking at symptoms and function and, and what do I need to address, um, and then supporting parents in that process if they want to get the diagnosis,
Frances Shefter ( 00:28:08): got it, if that makes sense. And I’m thinking about like the evaluation and stuff and it honestly I’m thinking of like, I don’t think there would ever be a person that wouldn’t need some sort of ot or wouldn’t benefit from some sort of ot, right? I mean, I’m a little
Naomi Matanick( 00:28:22): biased but I, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, um, you know, I, I try very hard to, to make sure that I’m not over recommending, right? Because I think there, you know, just like you’re saying, ok, now there’s this big thing of everyone getting some sort of diagnosis. Um, you know, I wanna make sure that, you know, we’re, we’re making sure it truly is the need for the child. But yeah, I, I feel like some way or another, we all have these sensory systems that could use a little bit of support,
Frances Shefter ( 00:28:57): right? And I love that it’s getting addressed, especially the emotional regulation, getting addressed when the child is younger because I know, like, as we grow older it just becomes harder and more habitual and, you know, that, that emotional dysregulation, um, you know, I’m working on mine. I know that 100% you know, I have kids now and, and they get emotionally dysregulated and I need to remind myself, me ne, I need to stay regulated because me getting dis regulated and we’re not going to get anywhere at all. Right.
Naomi Matanick( 00:29:29): Yeah, exactly. And that’s a huge part. That’s another part of OT is really like the parent piece. And in order to regulate with our kids, we first have to learn what it means to regulate ourselves and be aware of our own internal body cues. Um, I don’t know if you’ve heard of in interception. No, it’s a, it’s our eighth century sense system that is only now being talked about more. But it’s the idea that, you know, like, ok, our heart beating tells us about a certain emotion or, you know, our stomach flipping over might indicate like anxiety or if I’m full or hungry or need to go to the bathroom looking at how that’s actually impacting function. And I say that to what you’re saying because so many adults don’t even pay attention to those things. We just ignore them and then it impacts, you know, the whole term of being angry, right? That’s just your body. You’re not paying attention to your body and then having an emotional response. So it’s teaching parents how to pay attention to those things. Um, so that they can help their kids when they understand that they’re just having that same emotion that the parent is having.
Frances Shefter ( 00:30:34): That makes sense. And I’m assuming you work with parents a little bit on this stuff as well.
Naomi Matanick( 00:30:39): Yeah, there’s some, um, you know, there’s some conversation around co regulation and educating on, ok, how do we tap into what we’re feeling? I encourage parents to be honest with their kids. You know, if you’re feeling frustrated, communicate that to your child. If you’re feeling afraid, maybe you had a big response because you were afraid, communicate that I, I try to communicate that to my kids in the sessions and it really resonates with them and helps them understand, hey, our parents are having these emotions, but then it also helps me stay regulated to the child. Um, because instead of having a really big re reaction, I can calmly just tell them, hey, I’m, I’m actually starting to get frustrated, um, because of XYZ and what can we do to, what can we do that? We kind of mitigate that
Frances Shefter ( 00:31:31): and it shows the kids that it’s OK to have these emotions, you know, when I was growing up and stuff, it was like, you know, don’t cry, don’t show, don’t, you know, like, just be, you know, keep it all in, in which is the worst thing in the world. Right.
Naomi Matanick( 00:31:45): Exactly. Yeah. It’s a newer concept comparatively to the generations before.
Frances Shefter ( 00:31:53): Yeah, it’s just, yeah, it’s just like my brain’s going all over the place. Sorry. No, it’s just, I mean, like, it just, it’s making me thinking about, like, I remember one time somebody telling me something about anxiety, like when you start having an anxiety attack with me, when I would start having an anxiety attack, how it’s like the, the butterflies in the stomach and the heart beating faster and all that stuff. And somebody made the comment of like stop telling yourself it’s an anxiety attack. Tell yourself you’re excited because your body has that same reactions. When you’re excited about something, I’m excited about trying something new and I was like, gosh, that makes sense. Right? What do you call it?
Naomi Matanick( 00:32:35): Yeah, I love that because then you can really like reframe it or get a more accurate. Yeah, a for what’s happening.
Frances Shefter ( 00:32:44): Yeah, because it’s like just, just because your body is doing one reaction doesn’t mean it’s that, that one emotion.
Naomi Matanick( 00:32:52): Yeah, it doesn’t, it’s negative either. Yeah. And that’s that can be the, you know, that’s really what I try to start teaching kids is, you know, the stomach, the butterflies in your stomach could be multiple things, your heart racing could be multiple things. Um Right. And the other discovery I’ve had recently is with coagulation is sometimes we don’t attend to the emotions of the kids around us. Um because it’s inconvenient for us and I’ve noticed this with surf therapy, you know, even as the therapist and trying to curate this therapeutic environment at the beach. Um, you know, a lot of kids that come to me by nature do have hyper sensitive nervous systems. Um, and I had a kiddo, um, scrape his foot on a shell and, you know, his, both his mom and I were like, you’re, you know, at first we’re like, you’re fine. Like get back in the water and then I had to stop and think, wait a minute, Naomi, like for him, this scrape it probably, first of all, to his body feels like 10 times what I’m thinking, it feels like, um, and second of all, what am I doing? Just telling him to get back in the water just because I’m on a time frame or I want him to achieve something more. So, you know, even as a therapist, I forget sometimes and I have to step back and, and think about, um, you know, it’s not just about my comfort or what’s convenient for me.
Frances Shefter ( 00:34:23): That makes so much sense. It just, it made me think about somebody. I don’t remember. It was a parenting class or something about them saying that like when a child comes up, like mommy will you have a tea party with me? And not now, I don’t have time. Not now. I don’t have time and what your kid hears is, I don’t have time for you. Whereas if your kid falls off a bookshelf and slams their head, guess what? You’re dropping everything and running. So, it’s not the time, it’s what’s convenient for you. Um, which is where I learned that the time in or, uh, me time some people call it, um, where, you know, just carving out that 10 minutes a day of just me and the kids, you know, one on one whatever she wants.
Naomi Matanick( 00:35:07): Yeah, I love that. Yeah. It’s so
Frances Shefter ( 00:35:11): helpful. It’s just like, I love how all of it, when you look at occupational therapy, surfing outside therapy school and how all of it intertwines and how important it is to notice that and realize that and find what works basically for you and your family.
Naomi Matanick( 00:35:31): Yeah, exactly. Because there are so many resources out there and they recognize that families, you know, I think more than ever are so busy. There’s so many things on the schedule each week. Um, and, you know, so it’s kind of like when I’m, when I’m presenting surf therapy and it’s a new modality, um, you know, helping people understand the structure of that. So that made me think of. One thing is, you know, I feel like a question I’ve gotten in the past is, well, how long does someone have to attend surf therapy? Right. Because I recognize it’s time, it’s commitment, it’s money. Um, and it’s, it’s really considering that similarly to going to ot So we s same thing, we still have a structure of goals that we’re trying, trying to achieve. Um But because of the way surfing really, really kind of like integrates the body so quickly, um I think it can be seen as an intensive tool that can be used for a short period of time, for maybe three months, maybe six months. Um That the reason I’m bringing it up is it just made me think I’m like, I recognize there’s so many things that are pulling our attention. Um But the cool thing about this modality is I feel like no matter what the goals are for the child at the end of the day, it’s also giving them autonomy and connection to self which in this like busy crazy environment. That’s one thing that I know they’re gonna walk away from it with.
Frances Shefter ( 00:37:12): Um And that’s so important. The autonomy. Yeah, because it’s like, yeah, that’s been like the biggest topic. It’s so funny because like I was just thinking back of like guests I’ve had on the show and everybody, we are all talking about autonomy now, like no matter what it’s true, it’s giving the kids that sense of control, giving like they, they matter in this world, they have a place in this world.
Naomi Matanick( 00:37:36): Yeah. And then they can succeed at something, you know, like I said, I’m pushing them to a certain extent, but I’m also pushing them in a way that I make sure they succeed. Um And they can walk away with the identity of, you know, I’m a surfer. I had one kid. He just came to one, you know, surf event that I had last spring. And then his mom said like the next day at school, he was telling all of his friends that he was a surfer and I, I love that. Um because especially the kids who have more challenges and needs, they oftentimes struggle to find their identity in a certain place um giving them that identity. Um So, yeah, I wanted to bring all of that up just to say, I recognize that there are so many resources and they’re so wonderful and there’s a time and a place for age, but that’s what the structure of surfing can look like and what it can provide beyond just the traditional therapeutic goals,
Frances Shefter ( 00:38:27): right? And if you’re struggling with your child and, and, you know, they’ve always liked the ocean or they like, you know, whatever. Um So how do people get in touch with you? Like if somebody’s watching this and they’re like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, I want my kid to do this. How should people get in touch with you? Yeah, there’s a
Naomi Matanick( 00:38:42): couple of ways. Um So they can go to my website which um I don’t know if that’s going to be included in like a show note that the link will be so, but that’s, um Hang Dash 10 therapeutics.com. Um And then on that website, there’s an intake form that they can fill out that goes directly to my email inbox. Um, they can also get in touch with me via, you know, calling me, um, which I can also include that for you guys. Um, but, but going to the website and filling out the intake form is probably gonna be the easiest way to reach out to me. Um If they’re curious about, you know, seeing some of the hands on work that I’ve been doing with kids, they can go to my Instagram account, um which is gonna be hang underscore 10 underscore therapeutics. Um And the 10 is spelled out. I do get people asking me if that’s like the number 10 or the end. But um so those are some of the primary ways they can get in touch with me to find out if this is a good fit for them.
Frances Shefter ( 00:39:46): Awesome. Thank you so much, Naomi. Thank you for being on the show.
Naomi Matanick( 00:39:50): Thank you so much for having me and for your, your hype and your Yeah, your stoke, as we say in the world is sort of thing. Thank you.
Voiceover ( 00:40:00): You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEP® with your host, Frances Shefter. Remember you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through Shefterlaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments and sharing the show with others through youtube linkedin Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, and more.
Surf Therapy with Naomi Matanick
Stress-Free IEP® with Frances Shefter, Episode 49
In this episode of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter speaks with Naomi Matanick, a pediatric occupational therapist specializing in infant and child development, sensory-integration therapy, and surf therapy for kids. Naomi is the founder of Ocean Waves Therapy, based in Southern California, where she utilizes the ocean environment to aid children in achieving developmental goals such as gross motor skills, emotional regulation, confidence-building, and self-autonomy.
Tune in to the episode to hear about:
Learn more about Naomi Matanick:
Watch the referenced Stress-Free IEP® episode with Gabrielle Czaja: https://shefterlaw.com/2023/05/stress-free-iep-with-frances-shefter-and-gabrielle-czaja/
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Stress-Free IEP®:
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP® experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
Watch more episodes of Stress-Free IEP®:
Connect and learn more from your host, Frances Shefter:
Read the whole transcript here:
Voiceover ( 00:00:04): Welcome to Stress-Free IEP®. You do not need to do it all alone with your host, Frances Shefter, Principal of Shefter Law. You can get more details and catch prior episodes at www.shefterlaw.com. The Stress-Free IEP® video podcast is also posted on youtube and linkedin and you can listen to episodes through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher and more. Now here’s the host of Stress-Free IEP®. Frances Shefter.
Frances Shefter ( 00:00:42): Hi, everyone and welcome to the show. I am so excited about today’s show because before I met Naomi, I didn’t even know this was a thing. So today we have Naomi Matanic. No, Matt Nick. Sorry, I knew I was going to get it wrong who is an occupational therapist. And I’m going to let her tell you about how her therapy is different than everybody else’s.
Naomi Matanick( 00:01:10): Yeah. Thank you, Frances so much for having me on. I love what you’re doing for the community and for families. Um And so by trade, I’m a occupational therapist. I specialize in pediatrics anywhere from infants through early early adolescents. Um and have since started a surf therapy company for kids. So that’s using surfing the ocean, the beach as a therapeutic tool or also could be known as a therapeutic modality to help kids achieve anything they need to achieve. They want to achieve across the board from, you know, gross motor skills to emotional regulation um to building confidence and, and really self autonomy.
Frances Shefter ( 00:01:54): So how does it work with self, with emotional regulation?
Naomi Matanick( 00:01:58): That part’s cool. I can really geek out on that part because, you know, a lot of times when we see it in a clinic as an occupational therapist, one of our really big goals is to help kids get physically regulated and emotionally regulated so that we can start working on a higher level skill development. Um And that can take a lot of effort, right? Um But the ocean is amazing because first of all, there’s actual physical properties in the ocean. Um There are negative ions that are produced from the ocean that go into the air and actually increase dopamine and serotonin. But that’s just one thing random fun fact. Um But the other thing in terms of if we’re looking at the nervous system and our sensory systems, the pressure of the water on the skin actually activates muscle receptors that send calming signals to the brain. Um And then the movement, especially if a child is moving on a surfboard and they don’t even have to be standing up. It’s just the rush of movement provides so much information to our balance and equilibrium. Centers that, that also increases body awareness and causes um emotional and physical regulation to the body.
Frances Shefter ( 00:03:07): That is so cool. I didn’t even think about that but the pressure that makes sense because a lot of kids need that sensory of that pressure. Yeah, that is so cool. And it’s,
Naomi Matanick( 00:03:17): yeah, go
Frances Shefter ( 00:03:18): ahead. I was, I was just gonna say it’s nature, you know, like how can nature be wrong? Yeah,
Naomi Matanick( 00:03:23): it’s just naturally doing those things. Um So laugh and kind of joke that the ocean in terms of regulation is doing my job for me. Um Because I just get to watch it happen literally right in front of my eyes,
Frances Shefter ( 00:03:35): right? Which makes sense. I mean, I’ve always been an ocean girl. I’m a beach girl when I can be there. I’m there. Um I’ve lived in Florida for a lot of years but uh you know, I never like, I just love the, the, the rhythm of the ocean and the sound of the rhythm of the ocean. Um Never even thought of the, how it helps with the body regulation. That is so cool. So I know like, so surf therapy, like, I know people are probably like, you’re just being lazy and playing in the ocean, right? Yeah, I know what is good so well, like why? Like, so it’s obviously it’s not like how does it work? Like, what are the myths that, you know, that people have about the ocean therapy?
Naomi Matanick( 00:04:15): Yeah, I think one, and it’s funny you say that because I think people not knowing what it is yet, they kind of joke. They’re like, oh, ha ha. You’re like working. Um, and, um, but some myths I would say one is that it’s the same thing as a surf lesson, which there’s definitely surf company, surf therapy companies, um, that have that as a part of their structure. Um, but it’s, it’s so different than a surf lesson. It’s so different than me putting a kid on a board and having certain expectations of performance. Um because that’s a big thing I wanna kind of distinguish is it’s not a pressure of how you’re supposed to be performing on the surfboard.
Frances Shefter ( 00:05:03): God and not your form and stuff. So it’s just more of just being on the surfboard and, and happy and comfortable. Right?
Naomi Matanick( 00:05:9): Yeah. And we’ll work on skills, right? We’ll work on paddling, we’ll work on, you know, spatial awareness. Am I in the correct position on the board? Um We’ll even work on popping up. But those aren’t, I mean, the surfing is kind of a by product learning about surfing, but it’s not the end goal,
Frances Shefter ( 00:05:27): right? And I, I mean, I would think it, for kids, like it gives them a why, like I know for a lot of kids, especially, you know, kids on the spectrum or kids that, you know, that have that sensory needs. They’re like, why am I doing? This, why is this making a difference? Whereas if you’re learning how to surf, you don’t even think about like that. This is occupational therapy. I’m just learning how to surf.
Naomi Matanick( 00:05:46): Yeah. And that’s a great part of it too. A lot of kids, especially as they get older, they become more self aware. And then, you know, if they’re going into that traditional setting, there’s a little bit of a stigma that they feel but there’s, there are kids on my caseload who um we don’t even tell them. It’s ot we just say, hey, we’re, we’re surfing and, and I get them to do so much more for me, which is great. Um So, so that’s, yeah, that’s one area that is a misconception in the differences. Um Yeah, I would say another one is maybe what you brought up is people thinking, you know, surf therapy is almost like going on a surf retreat or something. Um And so just recognizing that it’s a form of therapy, I like to call it a therapeutic modality. Just because if you are going into a clinic space, there’s certain tools that we use for certain cases. Um And so to me, I view it as really just another tool that we can use to help kids,
Frances Shefter ( 00:06:48): right? Um How did you get into it? Like what, what, how did you find the surf therapy and how did you, you know, get into this, this for you?
Naomi Matanick( 00:06:58): Yeah, I, you know, I started learning how to surf as an adult and have, but I’ve always loved the water and have always thought at some point that I wanted to do something for my job in the water, but I had no idea what that would be or how I would get there. Um, especially doing something completely different, like occupational therapy. And then I found out I discovered a surf therapy company in 2020 they work primarily with adults and mental health, which right now is definitely one of the more common avenues for surf therapy. Um But I didn’t care that it was such a different field. I was so excited to re to find out that surf therapy existed that I contacted their CEO and some by some magic, she’s like, she runs like multi projects here and in South America and somehow I got a hold of her and, you know, it was basically like, I wanna learn everything about this. So they, one of their bases is in San Diego and I’m in Los Angeles. And so I actually participated in one of their six weeks of therapy programs myself just to get a sense of what it was. Then I took their training on what it means to be a surf therapist. Um And then have since then had to kind of curate it to my specific population. Um I always said at the beginning, like, I knew how to be a surfer and I knew how to be an ot but then learning how to combine those was definitely a learning
Frances Shefter ( 00:08:26): curve. I love it. I mean, it’s kind of like, because me as a former special ed teacher and a lawyer and now combining the two, like it just, it just brings such a different level. Right?
Naomi Matanick( 00:08:37): Yeah, it does level of understanding. I mean, even hearing you say that it’s like, I think that’s so powerful having your background and merging those two as a lawyer and understanding, you know, the special needs community. And um yeah, this is how I feel with surf therapy is it’s just this amazing tool that I now have access to.
Frances Shefter ( 00:9:00): Yeah, it’s so awesome. And I know like a lot of people like explain ot to me because a lot of people are like, oh my kid doesn’t need ot I don’t know what ot is, what do I need it for?
Naomi Matanick( 00:9:11): Right. Yeah. Ot it’s like some elusive term, right? Because it’s like people don’t really know a lot about it. But um yeah, one of the best ways to explain it would be, you know, achieving functional needs. Um We define occupation as anything you need or want to do. So then if you’re looking at a child, their primary occupations would be eating, dressing academics, play, socializing with peers, competing in sports, maybe the arts or music. Um And then if there’s anything that either they were born with where we’re seeing developmental delays um or it could be an accident um that then causes developmental challenges where they can’t participate functionally in those things most efficiently, we’re helping bridge the gaps for them. So I like to look at something we call the pyramid of learning. It’s a, you know, I’m very visual, but it’s a triangle. And at the bottom, we have our nervous system. So our sensory systems, um you know, our sense of body awareness, balance, movement, vision, hearing. And then above that, we have motor skill development and then cognitive development and emotional regulation. And so if there’s anything in the pyramid that’s breaking down functionally for a child that’s making it hard for them to participate. Um We’re looking at those different levels of the pyramid and seeing how we can strengthen those areas so that they can then achieve um success in, you know, whatever area is challenging for them
Frances Shefter ( 00:10:48): that is such, I love that definition. It’s so funny because every ot I talk to and physical therapist, like I always ask that question and it’s always a little bit different, which is great because it is so complex, you know. Um and it’s, it’s like I know you said a lot about sensory and I know that’s when I know in the school system, OTs are used a lot for handwriting and sensory. Um So like how does that sensory um integration work? Like how does, how does that impact how people function or how kids function.
Naomi Matanick( 00:11:19): Yeah, absolutely. So, sensory integration, I would argue that if you don’t have sensory integration, you’re going to struggle with every other higher level skill, including strength coordinations, um executive function. Uh because really sensory integration is we have eight senses, we have five that are really common, like sight and touch and taste and smell. We have three internal body sensations that give us a sense of where our body is in space in the room. Um You know how to coordinate our body movement. And so all of that information is coming outside the body and into the body and then it’s going up to the brain to be processed. So then we can have a motor action. Um But if we have a motor action that also ties into cognition, um because the way we really process movement in the body is the way the brain crosses connections in the brain to then have um more organized thoughts. Um So all of that, to say sensory integration, I, I feel like it’s really the framework for function. Um If you’re not getting enough information or you’re getting too much information, um then it’s gonna be really difficult for the body to efficiently move and think and plan and organize.
Frances Shefter ( 00:12:41): That makes sense. And that’s, that’s, you know, I’m just thinking like along the lines, like kids get overstimulated. Um And that’s, you know, that’s what’s happening and that’s when they have that breakdown. Um And I can see it being understated also is that’s when the kids are going and seeking for that, you know, the touch and they’re, they’re constantly touching or hugging or things like that. So how does Yeah. Uh
Naomi Matanick( 00:13:05): Oh Yeah. No, I mean, I was gonna say to that point it’s, and then, you know, thinking about even as an adult, the moments where we’ve been overstimulated or where we’re really tired and then say there’s a demand that’s being placed on us. Um You know, think about how that’s impacting you emotionally and your capacity to move through that and it’s the same thing for them, but like constantly cause their nervous system isn’t organized
Frances Shefter ( 00:13:31): right now. It makes sense. And so like I’m thinking about like, I know we talked about the pressure of the ocean and stuff in that sense is how does it, how do you think it worked? Like, is there a type of child that surf therapy would work for? And a type that it wouldn’t work for or is it kind of how does that work?
Naomi Matanick( 00:13:51): Yeah. You know, it, it, it’s, there’s definitely kids that are going to be more prone to being really excited about it. You know, I have kids who, as soon as it’s presented to them, they can’t wait to get in the ocean, they can’t wait to get on the surfboard. And those are kids that, you know, we’re gonna tend to be truly more out in the ocean working on some of those more traditional surfing skills while targeting whatever other therapeutic goals they have. And then there’s kids I’ve had who they’re terrified and they’re not at all interested in going to the ocean. And I do a lot of adapting and scaling. So if a kid wants to be on a boogie board instead of a surfboard, that’s great. We’re still getting a lot of the same benefits. I’ve spent an entire surf session where the surfboard is sitting just on the edge of the water and we’re practicing balance or we’re practicing spatial awareness or um you know, impulse control um and scaling up to where a child is more comfortable. I have had it where some kiddos, they just are completely opposed to the idea. Um even doing some of like the scaling they’re not interested in. And at that point, I do have a discussion with parents on, you know, maybe to the point that it’s upsetting a child that much, it may not be the right fit but, but physically and emotionally and cognitively what kids are working with, I would say. Um it can be a good fit. I still advocate for the clinic space. I know sometimes in these nontraditional settings, there seems to be this like division, but I don’t feel that way at all. I think sometimes kids could benefit more from the traditional space if they have um really intensive ot goals that they’re having to work through. I and some of my kids, they’ll do a hybrid where they see traditional ot and then come to serve therapy
Frances Shefter ( 00:15:59): that I love that. So I’m like, listening because it’s what’s the right fit because it’s not, it’s not every, you know, for everybody the same with, like, you know, psychotherapy, like, is the therapist, is there a good fit between the therapist and the client? And I like for me, a very good provider is able to recognize this might not be the best fit. And let’s let’s find the best fit for you as a family. Um And I like that it’s, it’s child, like I’m going back that it’s child driven basically, like they kind of right.
Naomi Matanick( 00:16:33): It, it, it really is and that’s been my goal in creating it too is that it’s child driven. So I there has been a lot of education that’s need to happen with parents. Um You know, because I think parents get excited and they see the surf environment and they, you know, it’s easy to forget that it’s, you know, also there a therapy environment um and they may be pushing the child to, to do more than they’re doing. Um But that’s really not the point I’m following the lead of the child,
Frances Shefter ( 00:17:04): right? And then working in what needs to be worked in and
Naomi Matanick( 00:17:07): slowly challenging.
Frances Shefter ( 00:17:10): So what like, for example, what is different um than teaching, just teaching surfboard, like when you’re doing an ot session, what would be kind of different?
Naomi Matanick( 00:17:20): Yeah. So some things that are going to be different is, you know, I think when you’re teaching surfing, you’re looking a lot at just the skill set or the physical needs that need to happen in order to teach surfing. Um So I’m, I’m looking at those components, like I said, I am teaching some components of learning how to surf. Um But because child led, we’re also looking at the thought of co regulation, which co regulation is, um the ability to, to see where the child is. Um are they frustrated? Are they angry? Are they anxious? Um Are they feeling calm and helping, you know, helping really, um call attention to that, but then help them get back to a regulated state. So in a typical surf session, you’re not going to have somebody who’s there co regulating to the emotions that are happening at that time. Um The other thing is I try to put a heavier emphasis on certain areas if I know that that’s the specific goal of the child. So for example, if a child needs help with um coordinating both sides of their body together, I’m, I’m really gonna make sure that we’re working on a lot of paddling in the water. Um So it’s kind of putting emphasis on specific needs or core strength. For example, I’ll do more core based activities for a child that we’re trying to increase core strength.
Frances Shefter ( 00:18:51): Right. That makes sense. That’s so cool. Like, I love this, this is so easy and I love the co regulation because I guess that’s it. Like, so if a kid, a child is having, I’m just thinking like a child having anxiety about going out on the surfboard. So, like, that’s where you come in and can help with that emotional regulation of working through.
Naomi Matanick( 00:19:10): Yes. Exactly. Making sure that we’re regulated. Um, and, and attending to that emotion before we get out into that unpredictable environment. Um, or sometimes even working on it while we’re sitting in the water.
Frances Shefter ( 00:19:25): Yeah, that makes sense because it’s, I mean, it’s, if you think about it taking, you know, taking a step back, even as adults, like if you were dis regulated, you know, so adults that don’t know the neuro diverse community, like you’re pissed off, you’re angry, you know, like you really think about it. Like, are you receiving any information at all when you’re that angry? And like, no, we’re not, right? As adults as adults, we’re not. Right. So, I imagine for the kids that, like, if they’re anxious about something, like they’re anxious about a test or something like that, they’re not going to do well on the test because it’s just that anxiety, their brain’s not functioning.
Naomi Matanick( 00:20:05): Yeah. And that reminds me as you’re speaking about that, you know, I mentioned that surf therapy we work and ot occupational therapy, you know, we’re working on sensory motor, emotional regulation and cognition. That’s the cognitive piece that you’re talking about, right? Because a lot of times if there’s challenges with understanding how our body moves and operates, like I said, there’s challenges of understanding how to um manage our thought process and organization of our cognitive capacities. So if we have kids who are in this fight or flight response, which is kind of like that poor emotional regulation, um they can’t access timing, thinking, organizing impulse control, which is a lot of times what they’re being asked, like, as you know, as a previous educator, they’re being asked to do that in the academic setting. Um So that’s why we do emotional regulation first,
Frances Shefter ( 00:20:57): right? No, that makes sense. And that’s where the masking comes in. I’m sure a lot of um yeah, because especially with our A SD kids that they have to, I have to conform. I have to conform. I have to do this and it’s a challenge. I love to see therapy. I’m like, I want to get on a plane and fly my daughter out and try it because I think she would be so into it. I mean, she loves boogie boarding, you know, like, so I could just so see how it could help her. Um But yeah, I mean, she goes to, she goes to physical therapy and does um um Alexander technique which is similar. It’s, it’s still the, the I don’t know if you know about Alexander to,
Naomi Matanick: I’m not familiar with it.
Frances Sjefter: Ok. So there’s one of my previous shows with Gabrielle Czajak. Um, who does it? But it’s a lot of the sensory and the connecting the mind and the body. Um, so it’s similar. Yeah, but it’s just like that different. It helps to, you know, just like I see the difference. I can imagine what the surfing would do is just see the difference of, as you said, some kids don’t even know it’s occupational therapy. You know, you’re not going to a therapy, you’re learning how to surf and, and it’s a way of making it happen and getting kids to naturally learn how to regulate in a fun environment basically.
Naomi Matanick( 00:22:19): Yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s also the hope is that it feels playful for them. Um because a lot of times, you know, kids who struggle with various challenges, whether that’s neurodiversity or some other capacity of challenge, many things I feel like in their life, feel, feel there’s a lack of play and ease and so wanting to create an environment where they can feel confident and, and have play,
Frances Shefter ( 00:22:46): right? So I’m thinking like, OK, because for me and what I see often for occupational therapy is just what we see in the school systems, you know, the handwriting and the sensory stuff for parents that you are looking outside of the schools and what like what would be indicators that you know what occupational therapy might be a good idea for your child.
Naomi Matanick( 00:23:10): Yeah. And it’s important to kind of distinguish between the school and different settings because the school, you know, the I A PSO T is going to be academic based schools only which is, that’s great for that environment because there’s a need for that. Um But then the things I think that get overlooked because there’s maybe just not enough time or it’s not in the structure of the academic environment. Um Are those sensory integration needs or maybe those more intense motor skill needs or emotional regulation needs? So, um you know, I think the way to answer that question would be to look at what people come to me with as their primary concerns. So primary concerns a lot of times are the emotional regulation pieces. Oh, my child gets frustrated really easily or um has trouble with impulse control. Um Or um there’s a lot of meltdowns when certain things are happening. You know, there’s inflexibility in thinking or they’re, they’re not, you know, there may be hesitant to try new things, you know, maybe in the physical environment or with peers, those are some emotional things that I get, you know, as primary concerns. Um Some other concerns might be, oh, they’re really sensitive to like noisy environments or touch and textures or movement or, you know, or they’re seeking so much movement that it’s interfering with their day to day routine. Those are the sensory, you know, indicators and then some motor indicators might be, oh, there’s just trouble with like coordinations, maybe it’s while they’re playing sports or they seem to be kind of sluggish and that could indicate decreased core strength. And then again, on the other side of the motor scale, you know, all they want to do is be on a jungle gym. So these are, and all of those things that I just mentioned are fine, right? We’re allowed to have all these human emotions and we’re allowed to move or is it still? But it’s when it’s impacting function that we want to work on it,
Frances Shefter ( 00:25:15): right? That makes sense and the emotions because I’m just thinking like um like parents don’t need to go get a diagnosis, they don’t need if they just like if they’re thinking, you know what I just feel like my child is a little explosive or is just over, you know, whatever has meltdowns um gets completely deregulated. So would they come see you, do you do an assessment? Like what does that look like?
Naomi Matanick( 00:25:38): Yeah, so they, yeah, they can come see me for an assessment and that would be a very traditional ot based assessment. So I am specialized in sensory integration. So we would do standardized testing if needed, which looks at all of our motor skills. Um And then there’s something called clinical observation, which is where we look at all of the sensory systems to see how those are functioning. Um They would fill out something called a sensory profile for the child. And then from there after the evaluation, I do also offer traditional occupational therapy. So then from that evaluation, then, you know, between the parents and I we decide what the best fit is if it’s, you know, for traditional ot if it’s surf therapy, if it’s for both and like you mentioned, not always needing to go and get a diagnosis. Um Yeah, I think it’s, you know, I understand why people get diagnosis, diagnoses, you know, for funding or insurance coverage. But, but with the diagnosis or not, we’re still addressing what’s, what’s being impacted functionally, right? So where OT comes in is um you know, a diagnosis is really, I don’t know, not as important in the world of OT because I’m looking at symptoms and function.
Frances Shefter ( 00:27:01): Yeah. And I hate, I hate diagnosis. I hate the codes. I am so against all of that because it’s, it’s, every child is different. And the one thing I’ve been noticing so much lately is a DH D autism and anxiety and they’re comorbid like, you know, like you never have one without the other and like, why do we have to label it? You know what I mean? Because it’s similar symptoms and all of that, that’s just very similar. Yeah. Address the symptoms and how we address the symptoms. But I know for the IEPs the way I DEA is written, you know, you have to have the code and for other services, but like the code doesn’t matter, like you don’t have to put a label on it. You don’t need the label, like you’re having sensory issues. That’s ok. Let’s address that right.
Naomi Matanick( 00:27:53): Yeah, exactly. Yeah. As far as being the ot it’s, you know, I’m looking at symptoms and function and, and what do I need to address, um, and then supporting parents in that process if they want to get the diagnosis,
Frances Shefter ( 00:28:08): got it, if that makes sense. And I’m thinking about like the evaluation and stuff and it honestly I’m thinking of like, I don’t think there would ever be a person that wouldn’t need some sort of ot or wouldn’t benefit from some sort of ot, right? I mean, I’m a little
Naomi Matanick( 00:28:22): biased but I, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, um, you know, I, I try very hard to, to make sure that I’m not over recommending, right? Because I think there, you know, just like you’re saying, ok, now there’s this big thing of everyone getting some sort of diagnosis. Um, you know, I wanna make sure that, you know, we’re, we’re making sure it truly is the need for the child. But yeah, I, I feel like some way or another, we all have these sensory systems that could use a little bit of support,
Frances Shefter ( 00:28:57): right? And I love that it’s getting addressed, especially the emotional regulation, getting addressed when the child is younger because I know, like, as we grow older it just becomes harder and more habitual and, you know, that, that emotional dysregulation, um, you know, I’m working on mine. I know that 100% you know, I have kids now and, and they get emotionally dysregulated and I need to remind myself, me ne, I need to stay regulated because me getting dis regulated and we’re not going to get anywhere at all. Right.
Naomi Matanick( 00:29:29): Yeah, exactly. And that’s a huge part. That’s another part of OT is really like the parent piece. And in order to regulate with our kids, we first have to learn what it means to regulate ourselves and be aware of our own internal body cues. Um, I don’t know if you’ve heard of in interception. No, it’s a, it’s our eighth century sense system that is only now being talked about more. But it’s the idea that, you know, like, ok, our heart beating tells us about a certain emotion or, you know, our stomach flipping over might indicate like anxiety or if I’m full or hungry or need to go to the bathroom looking at how that’s actually impacting function. And I say that to what you’re saying because so many adults don’t even pay attention to those things. We just ignore them and then it impacts, you know, the whole term of being angry, right? That’s just your body. You’re not paying attention to your body and then having an emotional response. So it’s teaching parents how to pay attention to those things. Um, so that they can help their kids when they understand that they’re just having that same emotion that the parent is having.
Frances Shefter ( 00:30:34): That makes sense. And I’m assuming you work with parents a little bit on this stuff as well.
Naomi Matanick( 00:30:39): Yeah, there’s some, um, you know, there’s some conversation around co regulation and educating on, ok, how do we tap into what we’re feeling? I encourage parents to be honest with their kids. You know, if you’re feeling frustrated, communicate that to your child. If you’re feeling afraid, maybe you had a big response because you were afraid, communicate that I, I try to communicate that to my kids in the sessions and it really resonates with them and helps them understand, hey, our parents are having these emotions, but then it also helps me stay regulated to the child. Um, because instead of having a really big re reaction, I can calmly just tell them, hey, I’m, I’m actually starting to get frustrated, um, because of XYZ and what can we do to, what can we do that? We kind of mitigate that
Frances Shefter ( 00:31:31): and it shows the kids that it’s OK to have these emotions, you know, when I was growing up and stuff, it was like, you know, don’t cry, don’t show, don’t, you know, like, just be, you know, keep it all in, in which is the worst thing in the world. Right.
Naomi Matanick( 00:31:45): Exactly. Yeah. It’s a newer concept comparatively to the generations before.
Frances Shefter ( 00:31:53): Yeah, it’s just, yeah, it’s just like my brain’s going all over the place. Sorry. No, it’s just, I mean, like, it just, it’s making me thinking about, like, I remember one time somebody telling me something about anxiety, like when you start having an anxiety attack with me, when I would start having an anxiety attack, how it’s like the, the butterflies in the stomach and the heart beating faster and all that stuff. And somebody made the comment of like stop telling yourself it’s an anxiety attack. Tell yourself you’re excited because your body has that same reactions. When you’re excited about something, I’m excited about trying something new and I was like, gosh, that makes sense. Right? What do you call it?
Naomi Matanick( 00:32:35): Yeah, I love that because then you can really like reframe it or get a more accurate. Yeah, a for what’s happening.
Frances Shefter ( 00:32:44): Yeah, because it’s like just, just because your body is doing one reaction doesn’t mean it’s that, that one emotion.
Naomi Matanick( 00:32:52): Yeah, it doesn’t, it’s negative either. Yeah. And that’s that can be the, you know, that’s really what I try to start teaching kids is, you know, the stomach, the butterflies in your stomach could be multiple things, your heart racing could be multiple things. Um Right. And the other discovery I’ve had recently is with coagulation is sometimes we don’t attend to the emotions of the kids around us. Um because it’s inconvenient for us and I’ve noticed this with surf therapy, you know, even as the therapist and trying to curate this therapeutic environment at the beach. Um, you know, a lot of kids that come to me by nature do have hyper sensitive nervous systems. Um, and I had a kiddo, um, scrape his foot on a shell and, you know, his, both his mom and I were like, you’re, you know, at first we’re like, you’re fine. Like get back in the water and then I had to stop and think, wait a minute, Naomi, like for him, this scrape it probably, first of all, to his body feels like 10 times what I’m thinking, it feels like, um, and second of all, what am I doing? Just telling him to get back in the water just because I’m on a time frame or I want him to achieve something more. So, you know, even as a therapist, I forget sometimes and I have to step back and, and think about, um, you know, it’s not just about my comfort or what’s convenient for me.
Frances Shefter ( 00:34:23): That makes so much sense. It just, it made me think about somebody. I don’t remember. It was a parenting class or something about them saying that like when a child comes up, like mommy will you have a tea party with me? And not now, I don’t have time. Not now. I don’t have time and what your kid hears is, I don’t have time for you. Whereas if your kid falls off a bookshelf and slams their head, guess what? You’re dropping everything and running. So, it’s not the time, it’s what’s convenient for you. Um, which is where I learned that the time in or, uh, me time some people call it, um, where, you know, just carving out that 10 minutes a day of just me and the kids, you know, one on one whatever she wants.
Naomi Matanick( 00:35:07): Yeah, I love that. Yeah. It’s so
Frances Shefter ( 00:35:11): helpful. It’s just like, I love how all of it, when you look at occupational therapy, surfing outside therapy school and how all of it intertwines and how important it is to notice that and realize that and find what works basically for you and your family.
Naomi Matanick( 00:35:31): Yeah, exactly. Because there are so many resources out there and they recognize that families, you know, I think more than ever are so busy. There’s so many things on the schedule each week. Um, and, you know, so it’s kind of like when I’m, when I’m presenting surf therapy and it’s a new modality, um, you know, helping people understand the structure of that. So that made me think of. One thing is, you know, I feel like a question I’ve gotten in the past is, well, how long does someone have to attend surf therapy? Right. Because I recognize it’s time, it’s commitment, it’s money. Um, and it’s, it’s really considering that similarly to going to ot So we s same thing, we still have a structure of goals that we’re trying, trying to achieve. Um But because of the way surfing really, really kind of like integrates the body so quickly, um I think it can be seen as an intensive tool that can be used for a short period of time, for maybe three months, maybe six months. Um That the reason I’m bringing it up is it just made me think I’m like, I recognize there’s so many things that are pulling our attention. Um But the cool thing about this modality is I feel like no matter what the goals are for the child at the end of the day, it’s also giving them autonomy and connection to self which in this like busy crazy environment. That’s one thing that I know they’re gonna walk away from it with.
Frances Shefter ( 00:37:12): Um And that’s so important. The autonomy. Yeah, because it’s like, yeah, that’s been like the biggest topic. It’s so funny because like I was just thinking back of like guests I’ve had on the show and everybody, we are all talking about autonomy now, like no matter what it’s true, it’s giving the kids that sense of control, giving like they, they matter in this world, they have a place in this world.
Naomi Matanick( 00:37:36): Yeah. And then they can succeed at something, you know, like I said, I’m pushing them to a certain extent, but I’m also pushing them in a way that I make sure they succeed. Um And they can walk away with the identity of, you know, I’m a surfer. I had one kid. He just came to one, you know, surf event that I had last spring. And then his mom said like the next day at school, he was telling all of his friends that he was a surfer and I, I love that. Um because especially the kids who have more challenges and needs, they oftentimes struggle to find their identity in a certain place um giving them that identity. Um So, yeah, I wanted to bring all of that up just to say, I recognize that there are so many resources and they’re so wonderful and there’s a time and a place for age, but that’s what the structure of surfing can look like and what it can provide beyond just the traditional therapeutic goals,
Frances Shefter ( 00:38:27): right? And if you’re struggling with your child and, and, you know, they’ve always liked the ocean or they like, you know, whatever. Um So how do people get in touch with you? Like if somebody’s watching this and they’re like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, I want my kid to do this. How should people get in touch with you? Yeah, there’s a
Naomi Matanick( 00:38:42): couple of ways. Um So they can go to my website which um I don’t know if that’s going to be included in like a show note that the link will be so, but that’s, um Hang Dash 10 therapeutics.com. Um And then on that website, there’s an intake form that they can fill out that goes directly to my email inbox. Um, they can also get in touch with me via, you know, calling me, um, which I can also include that for you guys. Um, but, but going to the website and filling out the intake form is probably gonna be the easiest way to reach out to me. Um If they’re curious about, you know, seeing some of the hands on work that I’ve been doing with kids, they can go to my Instagram account, um which is gonna be hang underscore 10 underscore therapeutics. Um And the 10 is spelled out. I do get people asking me if that’s like the number 10 or the end. But um so those are some of the primary ways they can get in touch with me to find out if this is a good fit for them.
Frances Shefter ( 00:39:46): Awesome. Thank you so much, Naomi. Thank you for being on the show.
Naomi Matanick( 00:39:50): Thank you so much for having me and for your, your hype and your Yeah, your stoke, as we say in the world is sort of thing. Thank you.
Voiceover ( 00:40:00): You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEP® with your host, Frances Shefter. Remember you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through Shefterlaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments and sharing the show with others through youtube linkedin Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, and more.
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