In this episode of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter speaks with Jared Kallen, Founder of Action Pact Coaching, Chief Excuse Buster and Major Fun Instigator.
Jared earned his Master’s Degree in Secondary Education with High Honors from the University of Pennsylvania and his Bachelor of Arts in Psychology from Amherst College. He has taught and coached English, History, Sociology, Political Science, Philosophy, American Studies, ALL Literature, and French to students in both private and public schools. While at Penn, he created innovative curricula for 9th-12th graders in English and Social Studies at an inner-city magnet school.
Action Pact Coaching provides educational, executive functioning, and full-on life coaching for ALL people: those with a wide range of abilities and learning differences including ADHD, ADD, and Autism Disorder — and “normal people” (ones with no diagnosis). As a lifelong Motivator, Success Coach, Athletic Coach, and Former Lead Humanities Teacher for young people in middle school, high school, college and beyond for over 35 years, Jared Kallen collaborates with his clients to create better habits, outcomes, and lives. Jared identifies and ELIMINATES his clients’ unproductive life narratives while providing ACTIONABLE and RELEVANT “toolkits” and concrete plans, then holds them ACCOUNTABLE, so that each client can be more proactive, authentic and successful.
Tune into to the episode to hear about:
Finding the right coach for your child
Keeping up accountability inside and outside of therapy
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP® experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
VOICEOVER: (00:00:00): Welcome to Stress-Free IEP®. You do not need to do it all alone with your host, Frances Shefter, Principal of Shefter Law. You can get more details and catch prior episodes at www.Schefterlaw.com. The Stress-Free IEP® video podcast is also posted on YouTube and LinkedIn and you can listen to episodes through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcast, Stitcher and more. Now, here’s the host of Stress-Free IEP®. Frances Shefter.
Frances Shefter: (00:00:37): Hello everyone and welcome to the show and for those of you that are watching live in Maryland. Happy second week of school. I can’t believe it’s already here. Hopefully, it’s going well for you. Our special guest today is Jared Kallen from Action Packed Coaching and Jared’s title is Chief Excuse Buster and Major Fun Instigator, which I absolutely love Jared because I think all of us need that. Tell us a little bit more about it. What do you mean by Chief Excuse Buster?
Jared Kallen: (00:01:13): Yeah. So, thanks for asking, and thanks for having me. Basically, we all make excuses in life. But in particular, with the neurodivergent population, they tend to make quite a bit of excuses and it tends to be not about them but more in the sort of like blaming shaming mode. So, why didn’t she get the work done? My mom didn’t tell me I had to do it or the teacher is awful. And so why should I do the work, or I didn’t get enough sleep last night, but that’s because my mom or dad forgot to put the alarm on or they didn’t feed me enough food or whatever it is. So, and it can go on and on as you can see. So one of the keys I found is just that you have to first develop the report, which is the second part of your question, I think. But the first, you know, once you do that, then to get growth and development and change real change, you have to be able to call people on their stuff like or else it doesn’t really move as well as it should.
Frances Shefter: (00:02:22): The accountability piece. Yeah. No, totally. I love that. So, through your coaching, you’re building the rapport and then helping your clients hold themselves accountable through you holding them accountable.
Jared Kallen: (00:02:37): Yeah. It starts with the rapport, one of my phrases is always like, we’re gonna have fun first and then we’re gonna get things done and people remember that because it rhymes fun and done, fun and done. So the goal is to make it fun enough so that they, any of my clients, like me, but more importantly, they know that I like them and that I’m rooting for them at all stages. And so if they feel that they’re much more likely to stop with the baloney excuses or the ones that really are not relevant or even useless really. And to move forward with the tool kits that we could provide and to move forward with change in terms of what they could be doing for themselves to have a more productive life, a more successful life, a happier life, a less codependent life, all these things, you know, sort of gel. And so the major fun is that everything, every kid that I or any client I take on it, I customize everything to the client. So that creates identification and strong rapport. So if the kid is a football player, we will talk about football for a while. I may show him a very exciting video about football. I may share that I was a football player or that I coach football. Or if a kid loves Drake, I may play Drake. I may show a video of anime, whatever it takes to have the client say he’s got me, he sort of, he gets it like he’s not this, you know, the prototypical Latin teacher 40 years ago and says, pull out your books and start declining Amare. I want to go the opposite route. And then, and all the data shows that the more that you engage, especially with the neuro diversion population, but really all teenagers and all young people, I think, the more mileage you get in almost every area that you’re trying to improve upon with that client.
Frances Shefter: (00:04:38): Which is so true. I say that with IEPs and stuff, especially when we get to our older children and our high school and sometimes even middle school, if they’re not buying into the IEP, it doesn’t matter what the rest of us are doing, we can write whatever we want. But if the child is not buying in, they’re not gonna do it. I’m not going, I’m not doing it.
Jared Kallen: (00:04:57): Right. Absolutely. And what that brings up is that hopefully the rapport that we build gets it to the point where they’re no longer see the value in oppositionality, you know, to be up to oppose me or anyone, they don’t see the point or they see that it’s really a, a form of self harm. So, you know, in other words, I’m gonna generalize a lot here and so we can’t just say, oh, you know, but the general tenor is that kids, especially these kinds of kids or young people. Their first answer is usually no, not, yes, whatever it is. Can you organize yourself? Can you use Google Calendar? Would you sync at your iphone? Can you text me every day with just the stuff you owe for the next day? And if they don’t, sort of grab onto that then, what do you do? So that’s sort of where it starts, the first thing you have to get past in general, there is going to be opposition. Why? Because a lot of these people have been living the same way for years or months or decades. And they’ve also been enabled from a lot of different areas. Whether it’s parents, teachers, babysitters, it doesn’t matter, it’s like ADHD or other problems are often not really addressed, they’re sort of enabled. Ok. Oh, you don’t know how to turn on your alarm. Let me, I’ll do it. I’m faster than you. It’s taking too long. And then that frustrates everybody. But also that the main chief target client who I was hired to help is not being helped because on the sidelines, too many other people are lending their help and it’s all well intentioned. That could be a mom, a dad, an uncle, a caring teacher. But if we’re in the business of creating better outcomes for our kids, then we need to heed that and let them be and let them learn, let them fail, let them make mistakes, let them learn how to self advocate and also let them learn how to be clear communicators. Communication is one of the biggest sorts of where things fall apart. For example, every kid is supposed to text me every day, including weekends with their plan just for the day and we take it one day at a time. Often, the texts don’t come over even though in the very first session, we set an alarm and I give the kid a say, I say, what time would it be good when no one will be distracting you when you won’t have work when mom and dad aren’t around where you can text me. It takes about five seconds. So I said what time then they say 10 a.m. OK. If the text doesn’t come over, that’s one problem that I would address and I have to chase them in the beginning. But if the text comes over, just wanna be clear and they say work that’s, that tells us nothing that doesn’t tell us where he or she is in any course spanish, english, math, or chemistry. It doesn’t tell us at what stage they are. It doesn’t do anything to be really honest. But if we can convert it from work to prepare for a spanish quiz, read the first chapter of Great Gatsby. Do outline for my origins of World War One research paper. Now that’s a 1000% better text if that makes sense.
Frances Shefter: (00:08:20): No, totally. And I’m assuming that what you do is whenever you meet with the child, the student because I know you work with adults also, you set up that plan so that they know what they should be doing every day.. So that it’s not them trying to, oh, I don’t know what I need to do. Oh, I’ll just say this.
Jared Kallen: (00:08:37): Right. Right. So, modeling is a huge part of this a lot of what I found out over the years because sometimes I would write an email right after the session. I always write email recaps that are very detailed but are also directed so that they don’t have to worry about what I’m trying to do during the session. They get it. They go, oh right. He wants me this, he wants that, but the thing is, I just recently said, why aren’t you responding to the emails? Because at the bottom, the email says, please respond in caps so that I know that we’re all on the same page and then there’s no response. So after two or three emails where there’s no response, I said, what’s going on, why is there no response? And then they might say, well, I don’t know how to respond or what to respond. What do you mean respond? And now maybe either I failed to communicate that correctly on the first session or something else was broken down, we dropped the ball somewhere and so then I immediately say, oh, just, just something like, yup, I understand. I got you, will do, anything. You only learn this as you’re going through the process because you might be thinking, oh, the person this, this kid doesn’t wanna learn, this kid doesn’t wanna grow, change whatever. And really they’re just saying, I don’t know what you want me to do. Tell me, tell me.
Frances Shefter: (00:9:51): And it’s all the communication. What do you do? Because I know a lot of teenagers are do this, I got this, like I don’t need you, I got this. My mom’s making me come, how do you handle those type of situations?
Frances Shefter: (00:10:05): Well, it’s a great question. First of all you get that almost all the time or the majority of the time because often when you first start with a kid, a younger person, you’re gonna get resistance and all you have to do and, it usually happens right after you establish the report because otherwise they don’t really want to listen to anything you have to say, right? And then maybe that makes sense. So, you establish a rapport, the connection, you identify with them, you have them identify with you, you let them know that you love them no matter what. But OK, and then and then when they say I got this and the evidence clearly shows that they don’t got this because you just look at their student portal and you see missed homeworks, not handed in, homeworks, not submitted homeworks, complete procrastination, you know, major test on Friday. They, they can’t, they didn’t even remember they had a test and that, that meant that we there was a breakdown in the planning, you know, with Google calendar, you know, maybe I asked them to input all the important work in the first week on Google calendar. They didn’t do that for whatever reason. They didn’t want to do it. They procrastinated to do it. They didn’t know how to do it, who knows? But it did get done. And so then when they say I got this and then you just look at the outcome or you just look at the Google calendar, I don’t see a test on the Google calendar on Friday. Why is it not there? You know, that would indicate that you’re not gonna be prepared for the test on Friday, and it’s sort of a mixture between a nuance of just being a real person and fun sort of. And then also say, wait, I don’t see anything. Where is it, how would you know, why are you not, why didn’t you set up the plan for the week or the month or the, the entire semester? Especially for college kids? You know, so now we’re sort of not going in the right direction. How can we reverse it?
Frances Shefter: (00:11:50): I like that, how can we reverse it? Holding them accountable to help with the plan? And there was something I want to go back to that you said about the parents, I mean, I’m a parent. I know you know, well, meaning as we are, it’s easier for us to do it sometimes. So, what do you do to stop the parents from enabling their children or set the expectations?
Jared Kallen: (00:12:15): Well, it’s a very important issue and it can be a very thorny issue as you point out because no parent really wants to say, you know, you’re messing this up or, even worse you do you realize how you hurt your child if you’re always prompting them to do the next task, instead of having them develop their own planning system and their own accountability system. So, often you have to have a side parent coaching in one form or another even either put zoom call, or you set your expectations straight on the contract that you send to the client. The goal is that we’re moving from codependence to independence. And part of that means you stepping off or stepping away and letting the process unfold and then seeing what happens. And so that’s sort of, I don’t think that’s a hard concept to understand, but it may be a hard concept to actually actuate or implement for any parent, you know, they’re like, well, what do you mean? What if he goes out and he continues to not brush his teeth in the morning or he can never get out of bed. I’m not gonna let him not go to school maybe a better approaches. Ok, describe to me exactly what happens in the morning. Then the mom might say, or the dad might say, well, he has four alarms go off when he sleeps through them all. Now, we have a problem. Now, we have to figure out how is he sleeping through them all? Is he shutting them all off? And then go right back to bed? Is he going to bed at 3 a.m. Which many, many kids do? How could any alarm wake him up? Or even if alarm did wake him up and he woke up, how could he go to school and be alert if he’s only got two hours of sleep? So, it’s sort of like drilling down on multiple habits that maybe have to get reversed. Usually this is not uncommon. It’s usually, you know, we might start with, oh, you know, he’s my executive functioning coach. But then I get, a lot of feedback from all parents, in the very beginning before I ever start and then all along the way. And I often ask tell me what you’re seeing. At the home because I’m not in the home. What do you see? What do you like? What don’t you like? Where is their progress? Where is there no progress? And then I might get a whole email on hygiene. Always forgets to brush his teeth, and is always late to the car. So then that makes my the sister late. Ok? And then the next session I’ll talk about what are you doing for sleep when you’re going to bed? Are you on video games till 2 a.m. How can we curb that back? You know, and then maybe you have to get into negotiation, and that’s sort of like where it’s more of an art than a science. It’s like if the kid says, look, I, hate school and I’m not going to bed before two am, I love video games. And it’s also they might say it’s social. I am with friends. So don’t tell me I’m just isolating, right? And then you have to say, ok, fine. Ok. So then, can you scale up, can you this week, can you try going from 2 a.m. to one? And then if they say yes and they do it, that’s great, then you might go the next week, 1 to 12. So you can get at least six hours of sleep. And now and then if you built this, ecosystem where there’s trust, faith, love, kind, kindness, warmth, support. And yet still the desire for real change and real outcomes, then it might just work.
Frances Shefter: (00:15:25): There’s so much to unpack there because I’m thinking that the issue is not necessarily that the child’s not getting up for school and that you’re going in with the parents and the child or the student to figure out why the child’s not getting up to school and then trying to, you know, it’s kind of like instead of throwing a drug at a disease, like find out what the reason for the symptom is and then the accountability piece comes in.
Jared Kallen: (00:15:48): But first and this is what a lot of people forget I think is that you have to model what, how it maybe should go really much better, right? So for example, let’s say a kid is, you know, chronically disorganized and chronically doesn’t want to plan ahead and it’s chronically late to school, then you have to build, you have to break it down into chunks like little chunks like, OK what time do you start to think about going to sleep? And then right after that, you say, OK, do you put your clothes out at night, usually it would be a, no, you say, could you do that? And then what clothes? And then maybe in the next day or the next week you say what clothes did you put out last night? Just to see if they’re doing it, you know, and then, and on and on and on. So it’s sort of like, if you’re a good listener and that is a skill, you know, it’s not always to be a good listener, you have to listen and, you know, they’ll say, well, I was ready for school, but then I decided to help my sister on something and then, then you might have to say, well, why do you wanna help your sister? Why? And then they might say, well, because I wanted to do a solid for, I wanted to help her and then you say, ok, but then what was the result? Well, we both got in the car late, mom was pissed off, we got to school late, we were off to a bad start. And so then you have to drill down. So how can we avoid that? If you plan to help your sister in the morning, then you have to plan to get up earlier, reset your alarm, you know, make sure your clothes are out and then let’s go, go, go, you know, and that happens with other things too. You get sort of a disconnect sometimes between what we want people to do or how to change and then how to do it, you know,how to really concretely do it. They may say, well,I can’t get up on it earlier. Then why, you know what’s going on? You know, do you have a lot of anxiety? Why do you have a lot of anxiety? And then often you can trace the level of anxiety to the low level of organization. So they’re linked, you know, they’re like inversely proportional. So if you can say wait, do you like sleep? Hell, yeah, I like sleep, Jared. Who doesn’t like sleep, right? So then, you go OK. Well, do you see that if your Google calendar is filled up and it syncs your iphone and you know, you, all that you owe for school right? Then you’re gonna get more sleep because you’ll know what’s coming up, you know what you have to do. Hopefully you’ll do it and then you’ll be done instead of fishing around on your student portal at 11 at night and saying, oh wow. I have a test. I have a quiz. Oh Wow, it’s worth 50 points. I’m screwed. Anything like that. That’s bad. So, its, the most amazing thing about this whole niche of neurodivergent learning and Neurodivision, neurodivergent coaching is that there are so many nuances which you’re touching on. There are so, you know, a lot of things, you get a lot of no’s instead of yeses and you have to turn them into yeses. You get a lot of butts and you don’t want the butts. You know, like when someone says, but you have to listen really closely. Then to be honest with you, it’s a whole language. So if I say to a kid, can you do this? They almost always will say yes. But the only the next logical question that anyone could ask is, will you do it? Will you do it? And they always do, they might pause but they always say I’ll do it. You know, it’s almost like they’ve surrendered in the moment or maybe just a moment. But they say we’ll do it, I’ll do it.
Frances Shefter: (00:19:17): It’s so funny. You say that because it just, what triggered for me is when I was a kid and we would go up to teachers and say, can I go to the bathroom and the teachers, like, I don’t know, can you, you go? Right. Right. Oh, yeah. May I go to the, you know?
Jared Kallen: (00:19:32): Especially within the neurodivergent households there is a lot of family stress. There are a lot of negative family dynamics there. You know, a lot. Sometimes when I get my first call from my mom or dad it could be something like I have had it. I’ve tried, I’ve tried everything. I’ve modeled everything probably the way you do. And that’s true. It’s a true statement. They’re saying, and i’m at that point, sometimes they just want to hand the kid over to me and say just, you know, and I might get a really good email directive from them which I usually ask for about the, the top five or six things they really want to see change or, you know, the, the top five or six weaknesses. And then sometimes it’s like, just do your thing, you know, and after every session, every parent or, client or guardian gets a very detailed email recap from me about what’s going right, what’s going wrong where we’re making progress where we’re not and it doesn’t just address academic stuff. It’s social, emotional behavioral attitudes, pro maybe false narratives that they’re harboring. And it’s all in there and, what the only thing that does, that is somewhat very useful. So, the parents can read it and if they’re ok with how things are going, they don’t have to bring it up. They don’t have to say, how did this session go with Jared or how are you doing, or where’s your homework or do you think it’s working or do you think your writing is getting stronger because they got the email recap? And so because a lot of times some parents are like, this is great. Let’s just do it. This is a lot better than what’s happening currently. So, you know, it’s like I have to hold myself accountable, which means I have to listen and I have to have a plan and I have to have tools. I have to hold the kid accountable because that’s our subject. I also have to have the parents accountable because sometimes they may be just habitually doing something that is not going to lead to growth or maybe, stagnation if that makes sense.
Frances Shefter: (00:21:35): No, totally. And it’s just, it makes sense because then the parents know exactly what’s going on because I know what, well, I shouldn’t even say just teenagers. My nine year old does it too. Like, so what did you do today? Nothing. What did you learn? Nothing. I was just gonna say that as parents we want to know, well, are we spending money is something happening? But that you give that update? Is that reassurance?
Jared Kallen: (00:22:05): Yeah. And Francis, you bring up a great point because a lot of people do pay me and they want to see results. And so of course, that’s understandable.Now we have to deal with expectations and the expectations are dangerous because they can quickly become premeditated resentment. You know, they can say, I’m paying this money and I don’t see much change or the grades haven’t really improved that much or something like that. And so what’s really going on? But the problem is quote unquote is multifactorial and has been going on usually for years. So on my contract, there is a little clause that I had to put in there many years ago that just says if you’re expecting really quick results or a huge uptick in grades or behavior, I am not your guy because that’s what I’ve experienced, you know. So if you have a first or second session and a parent says, what do you think? You know, do you think there’s, is there hope, you know the most accurate answer and the most genuine answer is, I don’t know yet. I’m just starting. Sometimes it’s a really good story because the parents or guardians might get in the habit of just filling me in on what they’re seeing in the home, what they like, what they don’t like. And then that gives me an opportunity to pick and choose my approach and how I want to go about it without pinning anything on the parents. But I can get at it and then I can say, you know, what’s going on here or here or here, it could be relationship, it could be social anxiety, it could be that the girl or guy is worried about an upcoming date and they cannot do work because they are just stuck on the date. How am I gonna look? How’s it gonna go? Is this real? He’s so good looking whatever it is, right? And so then it’s my job to say, ok, it’s understandable that you’re excited about that excited about the date or nervous about the date. But we have three days before the date and the work must get done one way or another. It’s gotta get done, you know, because your first job at school or in college is to get the work done or to learn, and of course we want you to have fun. That’s why I say have fun and get things done. But, it starts with you and then, better time management and better focus and better commitment and better self advocating with teachers and professors. And the end goal is always, if you do it, that you will have more fun, you’ll get more things done and you’ll have more time for the dates and the frat parties and the good stuff. It sort of starts there and often it takes a while for people to realize that, oh, you know, this went really better because my Google calendar was fully filled up. So I knew what I had to do. I knew that I had to do it before I went to the party or went to the football game or whatever I did. It was a good story.
Frances Shefter: (00:24:57): Yeah, it makes me think about, there’s so many times that we procrastinate. I mean, even as adults and put things off and put things off and I’m thinking like, oh, I’ll do it over the weekend but then for the next three days it’s hanging over my head. And so I’m not in the moment I’m not enjoying what I’m doing. Because it’s hanging and that if I would just take the 20 minutes and get the thing done that space in my head opens up for more fun.
Jared Kallen: (00:25:21): But that, and that’s why, you know, procrastination as, you know, is like, you know, one of the huge hallmarks, all many neuro neuro diversion, learners and the, you know, there’s there, you can’t really, it’s not, it’s, it’s not very easy to scur around that, you know, I mean, because you just have it just like the Nike commercial says, just do it, do it, you know, don’t put it off, do it, do it to the best of your ability and, and then move on, you know, and and to avoid like, overwhelm, instead of focusing on grades like a B or C or, or 90 versus 100 versus 70 we focus on processes, you know, tools. So, basically, you know, if a kid’s organized, then the outcome is almost always gonna be better than if the kid is not organized, right? And so if you see your organization, you can just say way to go, we’re, we’re going in the right direction. Let’s, let’s keep it real, let’s keep it rolling, you know, and, and it’s sort of it’s sort of, you know, come, it makes common sense, it’s common sense go. But a lot of people don’t, don’t always see that connection and then when they do, they get it more excited, which then promotes more inputs in the Google calendar, more organization, more time management because they see, they sort of start to see, you know, that it’s working, you know. And so, , but it, you know, the, the bottom line is that you, we have to meet, meet the, the client where he or she is, you know, you can’t, they, they, you, you may have to start off slower than you ever have in the past and then ramp up, you know, because every kid is different. You know, , if I get a referral from one therapist as soon as he goes, you gotta go real slow with this one. I’m telling you right now. Speak slowly, you know, lower, you know, lower the vole, you know, and then we, we might go into the particulars of that kid, you know, and, but that’s good guidance, you know, and, and then, but with every client at some point, sometimes you have to say it’s time to go. Let’s go, you know. You know, we’ve been, we’ve been, we’ve, we’ve sort of done it halfway here, you know, we, we missed a little bit of here or, you know, even though even after I showed you just to say, yep, I got the email or got you or we’re good or whatever, it’s still not that you’re still not responding, what’s the problem? You know, what, what, what’s stopping you?
Frances Shefter: (00:27:34): Right? And when I’m hearing I hate grades or society puts so much on grades and the sad thing is when you look at the grades, there are some people that get straight A’s without even cracking a book, you know, they don’t have to do anything and then others that are struggling and, work so hard and they get that C, but it’s only a C, and our society makes the A look so much better than the C where in reality, the C is the one that did all the work and the effort behind it.
Jared Kallen: (00:28:08): I say that the most important word in the English language is try, try, try because that addresses your point, then you’re not comparing am A student to a C student or an, A paper, a C paper you’re looking to see for evidence of a real attempt at whatever the task is. And then the second two most important words following try is try harder, you’re working with the situation and if those things are done, the grades will always be better, the outcomes will always be better because they could not be the person who before now has maybe not tried much or maybe listened to someone who called them quote stupid or dumb and all those negative things that we hear and especially in the space now they’re starting to say, well I just took that as the gospel. I didn’t try because, why would I? I’m stupid, right? I’m dumb. You know, I’m not… What’s the point? Somebody told me that the best job I’m gonna have is whatever. And I didn’t like it. So why should I try? So you have to reverse that, like with writing. There’s some kids, and they say the same things. The plan… Some kids will come on the screen, like we are right now, and they’ll say, ‘I don’t plan, and I’m not gonna plan.’ So there you go, you have to work with that. You might have to, and they might say, ‘Besides, I don’t have to plan because I don’t plan to go to college.’ And then you might say, ‘Well, what do you plan to do?’ And they might say, ‘Well, I’m pretty entrepreneurial. I’ve been selling sneakers on the sneaker stock market. So, that’s what I’m gonna do.’ So then, you might say, ‘Well, let’s say we’re talking about writing. They’re not gonna write about history or English; they will refuse. But if you tell them to write a really good paragraph using the tool you just gave them in terms of writing, like a body paragraph, but telling me and explaining to me why it’s hard to succeed at the sneaker stock market, then they’ll do it because this is something that they like. They get it; they wanna make money; they’re interested; they’re engaged. You know, and that’s happened numerous times where they might say, ‘I hate English. I hate history. So don’t teach me any of that stuff.’ And I say, ‘Okay, what do you like? What floats your boat?’ And then from there, you say, ‘They’re right about that,’ and then you get less resistance because you’re like, ‘This guy’s working with me. I might as well do something here.’ You know, and sometimes they see really good results. And then, hopefully, we can transfer that, you know, the writing about the sneaker sales market, stock market, sorry, to whatever they have to do to make themselves more productive and happy in whatever they choose to do.
Frances Shefter: (00:30:41): Right, it’s happened, it’s happened to their zones, to where their genius zone is. You know, interesting. Yeah, kids are like, ‘I don’t want to read that. It’s, you know, it’s boring. Who wants to read history?’ You’re right. Okay, let’s make it a little more fun. And, you know, can you pick out the top three, whatever in the reading?
Jared Kallen: (00:31:01): I went into it. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, you know, I’m seeing more and more that there are a lot of delusional thoughts and false narratives going on. So I’ve had a couple of clients over the last couple of years that, you know, they reject school or something, and then I say, ‘What will you do?’ And they say, ‘Well, everyone’s making money in Bitcoin trading, so I’m gonna do Bitcoin.’ Okay. But when you look at the actual reality, very few people will make money with Bitcoin. And more to the point, almost nobody makes money on Bitcoin unless they know exactly what they’re doing.
So, sometimes you have to challenge them. Have you Bitcoin traded before? Have you made any money? Sometimes you find out they haven’t even tried it or don’t know much about it or lost money. It’s just a way to avoid the more traditional path. The same thing happened with someone I coached a couple of years ago. They said, ‘I’m going to be a realtor. They make tons of money.’ Okay. But they didn’t know anything about it. So, I linked them up with some realtors I knew and said, ‘Spend a day with them, see the whole process, cold calls, visits, showing houses, dealing with difficult clients.’ Understand that in commission-based jobs, you only get paid when you close a deal. Do you even understand what you’re talking about? Are you willing to research this before deciding to be a Bitcoin trader or a realtor without any context or information, instead of focusing on school or other options?
Frances Shefter: (00:33:12): The work behind it reminds me of basketball players. Professional basketball players will be like, ‘Oh, they make millions, you know, and I just want to shoot hoops.’ But they don’t see the player that misses the free throw and, after the game, for three hours, will sit there, practicing free throw after free throw after free throw.
Jared Kallen: (00:33:32): Absolutely. And that’s what I always bring up with athletes. They often mention Michael Jordan as the best ever or Kobe Bryant. Michael Jordan, for example, has many videos where people say, ‘You’re the best, and you’re so rich, life must have been easy.’ His resounding message is, ‘No, it was not easy.’ To your point, he was in the gym all the time. We all know he got cut from the ninth-grade team and had to fight to get back on varsity. There are videos highlighting how he worked tirelessly on the court and pushed everyone else around him as a leader. This kind of dedication was required, and it’s the same for Kobe Bryant and many other athletes. People often only see the end result and the fame or money, but, as you mentioned, it’s about the hard work put in between ages 10 and 18 before they got drafted.
Frances Shefter: (00:34:24): It’s the will behind the skill.
Jared Kallen: (00:34:26): Yeah, the will behind the skill. Exactly. It’s like, you know, there are tons of people that I coach, and other people coach, who have sky-high IQs. They’re super smart. So it’s not about the skill, but they may have ADHD or something. Where the will comes in is, will you text me more clearly every day? Will you make sure and then double-check your Google calendar and cross-check it with your specific student portal to make sure you haven’t missed anything, big or small? That’s the will part. If we can get that, we’re making progress.
A lot of therapists I talk to focus on just a couple of things. One is consistency. Are we getting more consistent? Are we growing? For example, if the kid was supposed to text every day for the week but only texted once, can we get it to three or four times per week? That’s growth, that’s a win, as opposed to a lower grade or fewer texts.
If a Google calendar was initially very empty and incomplete, but a week or two later, it’s much more populated, that’s a huge win. We should celebrate those achievements.
Frances Shefter: (00:35:48): Right, it’s like, and what comes to mind for me is truancy because I’ve had a lot of truancy cases with DC Superior Court. You know, when a kid never goes to school, and we manage to get them to go once a week, that’s a cause for celebration. But the school is always like, ‘He needs to be here every day.’ I’m thinking, can’t we just celebrate the fact that he’s going once a week? Because if he feels a sense of accomplishment once a week, he’s more likely to want to come back the next day, you know.
Jared Kallen: (00:36:14): But yeah, I mean, a lot of it is, to your point, I only coach with positive reinforcement. So, for example, if a kid doesn’t do much during the week, let’s say from one session to the next session, like it’s a weekly session, say, on Monday at 5 p.m., and the next session will be the following Monday at 5 p.m. If the kid drops the ball for whatever reason—no homework submitted, didn’t do the homework, totally unprepared for the math test, whatever it is—what a lot of people, including parents, would say is, ‘What were you thinking?’ They’ll scream it. ‘You knew the test was coming, and there was no preparation. So why are you surprised when you got a bad grade?’
I don’t do that. I say, ‘Let’s look at your week. Let’s examine what happened. What are the concrete, granular details? How did you manage your time? Where did you spend your time? What did you focus on? Did you self-advocate with the teacher? Did you send the teacher an email? Did you request a quick tutor for that subject?’ There are always plenty of tutors available. That’s where it really matters.
It’s not about blaming; it’s about finding solutions. So if a lot of things were dropped the previous week, our only job is to figure out how to prevent it from happening next week. What needs to be made up? What are the priorities? Who needs to be contacted for an extension? Where are you confused, especially with something like an essay prompt? What steps can you take on a daily basis to catch up, keep going, and avoid a disastrous semester?”
Frances Shefter: (00:38:08): Right? Because the, “what were you thinking? All the kid here, I’m a failure. I wasn’t thinking” and then go from there.
Jared Kallen: (00:38:14): Yeah, but to the parents’ credit, you know, we walk a fine line. It’s okay; it’s not crazy to think that a whole week went by with big assessments due, and maybe it wasn’t at the top of your mind. Then, when you finally realized it, some kids—though not all—get upset. They say, ‘Oh, I did poorly on that exam.’ And you ask, ‘Well, let’s look at the situation. When did you prepare? Not much? I didn’t really prepare then. How did you think you were going to do? Well, I don’t know.’
Many kids say ‘I don’t know,’ and I’ve seen this a lot during Zoom calls with therapists. We share the same observations. Sometimes therapists point out that kids say ‘I don’t know’ frequently, and that doesn’t help. There’s usually something that happened within the past 24 hours—distractions, video games, daydreaming, fear, confusion, or just an attitude of overconfidence—that prevented them from focusing on the task at hand. It’s like not emailing the teacher for clarification or preparing adequately for a big math or Spanish test or even something like a rough draft. It’s a common pattern.
Frances Shefter: (00:39:51): It reminds me of the personal growth seminars. I did way back when and if you ever said, I don’t know, the response was always, well, if you did know, what would the answer be?
Jared Kallen: (00:40:01): Oh, that’s good. I like that.
Frances Shefter: (00:40:02): Right? Because like we do know, we know we’re just we’re blocking it out and so that it just makes you think differently.
Jared Kallen: (00:40:11): I really like that a lot. What you just said makes a lot of sense, and I really appreciate it. Sometimes you have to step out to get back in with anybody. Instead of saying, ‘What were you thinking?’ as many people might do, the more creative or results-oriented person might ask, ‘Okay, what were you doing? How did you see this playing out, or did you not see it playing out at all?’ Some people can’t see the connection between lack of effort and a bad outcome. They tend to hang on to hope, thinking everything will be alright, but sometimes you have to point out that if you did nothing, how would it work out since you’re the architect of your own life?
For example, the phone can be a big distraction. Screen addiction is widespread. Sometimes in my email recaps, which go directly to students, especially those at colleges and universities, I might include a message like ‘Put the phone down, put the phone down, put the phone down.’ Then, as a reward (since we all deal with positive reinforcement, rewards, and consequences), I suggest turning the phone back on, but only after you’ve completed your work. Go to the library, turn the phone off while you work, and then turn it back on. This can be more efficient because you’re not constantly responding in real time. You can focus on your work first and then enjoy your free time without distractions.
Frances Shefter: (00:42:06): Right? That makes so much sense. I heard so much about it. I wanna find out more about your program. So I know you said something about like an hour a week and then texting every day. How is it when somebody engages with you? What does the program look like?
Jared Kallen: (00:42:21): The program works like this: I make a bargain with both the parent and the kid. If they follow roughly 80% of my suggestions, then the parent cannot nag them about academic stuff. However, this doesn’t extend to other responsibilities like taking out the trash, doing the dishes, or helping with the laundry.
The bargain is genuine. If the kid genuinely follows about 80% of what I recommend—texting, planning, prioritizing, self-advocating with teachers, doing the work, focusing, and accepting help—then the agreement holds. Many kids, especially those in families with complicated dynamics, appreciate it. I often ask them, ‘How does it sound not to be constantly asked by your parents for three months about your schoolwork? Are you ready for the quiz? Have you prepared for the test? Is your essay done? Did you do the rough draft?’ Almost all of them enthusiastically agree. However, the real test is when it comes to implementation. When does it actually happen?
Frances Shefter: (00:43:41): Right. As a parent, I’m like, oh my God, I don’t have to ask my kid anymore, you know.
Jared Kallen: (00:43:47): Right, well, that’s one of the appealing aspects of it. However, it’s essential to understand that when you present this equation – whether it’s the bargain, negotiation, or the ‘no nagging’ rule – it works the other way too. If you choose not to take any action, your parents can become quite involved and concerned. They love you, they’re your parents, they’re providing for you, and they have expectations. They want to see results.
Ultimately, it all comes down to your choice. Sometimes, I need to emphasize this point with a kid or any client: ‘It’s your life.’ I might have to repeat it to drive the message home. ‘It’s your life.’ They might initially look puzzled or unsure, but I clarify that their parents are mostly irrelevant except for their love and support. Beyond that, it’s up to them to shape their own life, find a job, earn a living, and build a career. They need to figure it out.
This approach can be effective because it counters the enabling dynamic. It empowers them and emphasizes that while they may need to listen to their parents to some extent, ultimately, it’s their life and their decisions that matter.
Frances Shefter: (00:44:47): And it’s giving them ownership of “I don’t have to” Yes, you have to do what your parents say to an extent, but it’s your life. Do you want to get there in life or not? You know?
Jared Kallen: (00:44:58): Yeah, absolutely. And that’s where the concept that many therapists and coaches discuss comes into play – the concept of natural consequences. It’s challenging to implement, especially for parents or anyone, but it’s often crucial because it can drive personal growth.
Sometimes, when you receive a call or email from a concerned parent because their child hasn’t been doing any schoolwork, especially for a significant test, and their grades are on the line, the best response may be to allow them to face the possibility of failure. You’ve probably heard the phrase ‘let them fail.’ It can be tough to watch, but we can’t rescue or save anyone. We only have control over two things in our lives: our attitudes and our actions. Yelling at a kid or asking, ‘What were you thinking?’ usually doesn’t help.
In these situations, you can convey to parents or the child that they are ultimately responsible for their choices. Life is full of choices, and they make those choices. They either reap the rewards or face the consequences. The idea of hitting rock bottom is like the story of an alcoholic who lost everything, and when God offers to help, they ask if they can get back to it later. It reflects hesitation to change.
So, it’s important to address these issues promptly. Waiting another year with average grades, no direction, and lots of frustration isn’t a good option. It’s better to work hard, enjoy some fun, and engage in sports. Encouraging ownership and agency is crucial. We hope they embrace it, but if they don’t, we ask them why or share stories, which are powerful coaching tools.
Comparing oneself to others is generally unhelpful. It can lead to vanity or bitterness. The key is to focus on your own path and let the outcomes unfold naturally. This approach has often worked well for me.
Many principles and maxims that people have shared over the years may have sounded good in the past but don’t necessarily work in every situation. For example, ‘If nothing changes, then nothing changes.’ Sometimes, you need to assess the current situation and ask, ‘What do we do?
Frances Shefter: (00:49:00): You know, if you keep doing what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always gotten. Right?
Jared Kallen: (00:49:05): Right. You’ve probably heard the saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. We don’t want to be in that cycle anymore. That’s a fundamental aspect of our approach—let’s break free from this pattern and be real. What do you want to achieve from this experience, and how can I support you in achieving it? I’m willing to do whatever it takes. This message is crucial when establishing rapport with clients. It’s like saying, ‘I’ve got your back, and we’re in this together. Let’s go.’
I remember a student who had to excel on a final research paper a couple of years ago. He had a habit of procrastinating, but in that critical moment, I told him, ‘I’ll review your paper anytime it’s ready. If you call me at 2 a.m., I’ll get up, have some coffee, and provide feedback on the entire paper. You need to be on the other end of that Google Docs and be ready to accept or reject my suggestions and then submit the paper on time.’ Sometimes, you have to go the extra mile.
Building rapport is essential because many people, including therapists, struggle when they haven’t established a strong connection with their clients. Our friend David Levin, who’s a master at this, emphasizes the importance of unconventional approaches. I consider myself unconventional too, and I believe it’s beneficial for achieving positive outcomes, fostering a good atmosphere, and ultimately leading to improvement instead of stagnation or decline.
Frances Shefter: (00:50:41): Right? And I just noticed the time and I know we have to wrap up. So do you work with only high school and college or what age, grade?
Jared Kallen: (00:50:49): Yeah, that’s a great question. So I work with various age groups, including middle school, high school, college, graduate school, and a specific group I particularly enjoy working with are those in their twenties through their mid-thirties, often referred to as ‘failure to launch’ individuals. This demographic is more intriguing to me because when you’re working with middle school, high school, or college students, you often deal with recurring themes like setting goals, managing their time, clear communication, and self-advocacy. Once you’ve got those fundamentals in place, you’re good to go.
However, with the ‘failure to launch’ group, you’re dealing with people who may have tried something and didn’t succeed or who have pursued a career path like law but realized it’s not for them after experiencing the reality of billable hours. In these cases, it requires a hands-on, interactive coaching approach. I ask questions like, ‘What didn’t you like about your previous career?’ and ‘What are your strengths and weaknesses?’ Then, I leverage my network to connect them with professionals in fields they might be interested in. They can have coffee or lunch with these people and ask candid questions about their jobs, both the pros and cons, salary details, and more. The goal is to avoid making another career mistake.
In the ‘failure to launch’ group, many individuals might have neurodivergent traits, but they could also struggle with other challenges like addiction, alcohol, cannabis, excessive screen time, and more. It’s often difficult to get someone between the ages of 20 and 33 to completely eliminate a bad habit. This is where the concept of harm reduction comes into play. For instance, if someone is consuming nine beers a night, we might aim to reduce it to three beers over two weeks. Achieving that reduction is considered a win.
When I work with these individuals, I maintain open communication channels. I check my email and text messages regularly since much of our communication happens through text these days. After that, we typically engage in in-depth conversations about how I work and what I can do to help them. They appreciate receiving email recaps, as it eliminates the need to check portals.
To build rapport and better understand their needs, I send out a series of questions. These questions cover various aspects, including their experiences as students, their relationships with teachers and tutors, their parents’ concerns, and even personal preferences such as favorite sports, heroes, foods, and what might upset their children. This level of engagement helps strengthen our connection. Once they provide their answers, we finalize a contract, and we’re ready to move forward.
Frances Shefter: (00:54:08): That is awesome. And I know we’re gonna have your email and phone number in the show notes below. Thank you so much. This was so awesome and wonderful.
Jared Kallen: (00:54:16): Yeah, it was a lot of fun. I really appreciate it. And you mentioned, should I give a shout-out to other professionals? Absolutely! There are some fantastic professionals out there doing great work. Let me highlight a few:
Eric Kaufman, based in California, specializes in leadership development for neurodivergent learners. He runs an excellent program and is truly exceptional in his field.
Ronnie Landeck is a professional who can be reached at Ronnie Landeck Coaching. She offers one-on-one and group sales coaching with a holistic approach, addressing various aspects of personal and professional development.
David Levin, of the ADH Chesapeake Center, is outstanding in his work. He may be a bit controversial, but his effectiveness and the fact that he has a substantial waiting list speak volumes about his impact.
John Perlman, the owner of GMP Consults, has recently crossed my path. What impresses me most about John is his laser-like focus on each individual, leading to the best college fit for each student. He possesses a wealth of knowledge and seems to have an innate sense of what would or wouldn’t work in terms of the college environment, including social aspects, fraternities, sororities, and more. He asks questions that most counselors wouldn’t think to ask, such as a student’s high school experience, athletic involvement, and social preferences. John synthesizes all of this information to provide excellent guidance.
Frances Shefter: (00:56:05): That’s awesome. Thank you so much. I will definitely reach out to all of these people.
Jared Kallen: (00:56:08): All right. Sounds good. Thanks very much.
VOICEOVER: (00:56:14): You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEP® with your host, Frances Shefter. Remember you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through www.Shefterlaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments and sharing the show with others through YouTube LinkedIn Apple podcast, Spotify, Google Podcast, Stitcher and more.
Coaching Kids to Success with Jared Kallen (Stress-Free IEP® with Frances Shefter)
In this episode of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter speaks with Jared Kallen, Founder of Action Pact Coaching, Chief Excuse Buster and Major Fun Instigator.
Jared earned his Master’s Degree in Secondary Education with High Honors from the University of Pennsylvania and his Bachelor of Arts in Psychology from Amherst College. He has taught and coached English, History, Sociology, Political Science, Philosophy, American Studies, ALL Literature, and French to students in both private and public schools. While at Penn, he created innovative curricula for 9th-12th graders in English and Social Studies at an inner-city magnet school.
Action Pact Coaching provides educational, executive functioning, and full-on life coaching for ALL people: those with a wide range of abilities and learning differences including ADHD, ADD, and Autism Disorder — and “normal people” (ones with no diagnosis). As a lifelong Motivator, Success Coach, Athletic Coach, and Former Lead Humanities Teacher for young people in middle school, high school, college and beyond for over 35 years, Jared Kallen collaborates with his clients to create better habits, outcomes, and lives. Jared identifies and ELIMINATES his clients’ unproductive life narratives while providing ACTIONABLE and RELEVANT “toolkits” and concrete plans, then holds them ACCOUNTABLE, so that each client can be more proactive, authentic and successful.
Tune into to the episode to hear about:
Learn more about Jared Kallen:
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Stress-Free IEP®:
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP® experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
Watch more episodes of Stress-Free IEP®:
Connect and learn more from your host, Frances Shefter:
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
VOICEOVER: (00:00:00): Welcome to Stress-Free IEP®. You do not need to do it all alone with your host, Frances Shefter, Principal of Shefter Law. You can get more details and catch prior episodes at www.Schefterlaw.com. The Stress-Free IEP® video podcast is also posted on YouTube and LinkedIn and you can listen to episodes through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcast, Stitcher and more. Now, here’s the host of Stress-Free IEP®. Frances Shefter.
Frances Shefter: (00:00:37): Hello everyone and welcome to the show and for those of you that are watching live in Maryland. Happy second week of school. I can’t believe it’s already here. Hopefully, it’s going well for you. Our special guest today is Jared Kallen from Action Packed Coaching and Jared’s title is Chief Excuse Buster and Major Fun Instigator, which I absolutely love Jared because I think all of us need that. Tell us a little bit more about it. What do you mean by Chief Excuse Buster?
Jared Kallen: (00:01:13): Yeah. So, thanks for asking, and thanks for having me. Basically, we all make excuses in life. But in particular, with the neurodivergent population, they tend to make quite a bit of excuses and it tends to be not about them but more in the sort of like blaming shaming mode. So, why didn’t she get the work done? My mom didn’t tell me I had to do it or the teacher is awful. And so why should I do the work, or I didn’t get enough sleep last night, but that’s because my mom or dad forgot to put the alarm on or they didn’t feed me enough food or whatever it is. So, and it can go on and on as you can see. So one of the keys I found is just that you have to first develop the report, which is the second part of your question, I think. But the first, you know, once you do that, then to get growth and development and change real change, you have to be able to call people on their stuff like or else it doesn’t really move as well as it should.
Frances Shefter: (00:02:22): The accountability piece. Yeah. No, totally. I love that. So, through your coaching, you’re building the rapport and then helping your clients hold themselves accountable through you holding them accountable.
Jared Kallen: (00:02:37): Yeah. It starts with the rapport, one of my phrases is always like, we’re gonna have fun first and then we’re gonna get things done and people remember that because it rhymes fun and done, fun and done. So the goal is to make it fun enough so that they, any of my clients, like me, but more importantly, they know that I like them and that I’m rooting for them at all stages. And so if they feel that they’re much more likely to stop with the baloney excuses or the ones that really are not relevant or even useless really. And to move forward with the tool kits that we could provide and to move forward with change in terms of what they could be doing for themselves to have a more productive life, a more successful life, a happier life, a less codependent life, all these things, you know, sort of gel. And so the major fun is that everything, every kid that I or any client I take on it, I customize everything to the client. So that creates identification and strong rapport. So if the kid is a football player, we will talk about football for a while. I may show him a very exciting video about football. I may share that I was a football player or that I coach football. Or if a kid loves Drake, I may play Drake. I may show a video of anime, whatever it takes to have the client say he’s got me, he sort of, he gets it like he’s not this, you know, the prototypical Latin teacher 40 years ago and says, pull out your books and start declining Amare. I want to go the opposite route. And then, and all the data shows that the more that you engage, especially with the neuro diversion population, but really all teenagers and all young people, I think, the more mileage you get in almost every area that you’re trying to improve upon with that client.
Frances Shefter: (00:04:38): Which is so true. I say that with IEPs and stuff, especially when we get to our older children and our high school and sometimes even middle school, if they’re not buying into the IEP, it doesn’t matter what the rest of us are doing, we can write whatever we want. But if the child is not buying in, they’re not gonna do it. I’m not going, I’m not doing it.
Jared Kallen: (00:04:57): Right. Absolutely. And what that brings up is that hopefully the rapport that we build gets it to the point where they’re no longer see the value in oppositionality, you know, to be up to oppose me or anyone, they don’t see the point or they see that it’s really a, a form of self harm. So, you know, in other words, I’m gonna generalize a lot here and so we can’t just say, oh, you know, but the general tenor is that kids, especially these kinds of kids or young people. Their first answer is usually no, not, yes, whatever it is. Can you organize yourself? Can you use Google Calendar? Would you sync at your iphone? Can you text me every day with just the stuff you owe for the next day? And if they don’t, sort of grab onto that then, what do you do? So that’s sort of where it starts, the first thing you have to get past in general, there is going to be opposition. Why? Because a lot of these people have been living the same way for years or months or decades. And they’ve also been enabled from a lot of different areas. Whether it’s parents, teachers, babysitters, it doesn’t matter, it’s like ADHD or other problems are often not really addressed, they’re sort of enabled. Ok. Oh, you don’t know how to turn on your alarm. Let me, I’ll do it. I’m faster than you. It’s taking too long. And then that frustrates everybody. But also that the main chief target client who I was hired to help is not being helped because on the sidelines, too many other people are lending their help and it’s all well intentioned. That could be a mom, a dad, an uncle, a caring teacher. But if we’re in the business of creating better outcomes for our kids, then we need to heed that and let them be and let them learn, let them fail, let them make mistakes, let them learn how to self advocate and also let them learn how to be clear communicators. Communication is one of the biggest sorts of where things fall apart. For example, every kid is supposed to text me every day, including weekends with their plan just for the day and we take it one day at a time. Often, the texts don’t come over even though in the very first session, we set an alarm and I give the kid a say, I say, what time would it be good when no one will be distracting you when you won’t have work when mom and dad aren’t around where you can text me. It takes about five seconds. So I said what time then they say 10 a.m. OK. If the text doesn’t come over, that’s one problem that I would address and I have to chase them in the beginning. But if the text comes over, just wanna be clear and they say work that’s, that tells us nothing that doesn’t tell us where he or she is in any course spanish, english, math, or chemistry. It doesn’t tell us at what stage they are. It doesn’t do anything to be really honest. But if we can convert it from work to prepare for a spanish quiz, read the first chapter of Great Gatsby. Do outline for my origins of World War One research paper. Now that’s a 1000% better text if that makes sense.
Frances Shefter: (00:08:20): No, totally. And I’m assuming that what you do is whenever you meet with the child, the student because I know you work with adults also, you set up that plan so that they know what they should be doing every day.. So that it’s not them trying to, oh, I don’t know what I need to do. Oh, I’ll just say this.
Jared Kallen: (00:08:37): Right. Right. So, modeling is a huge part of this a lot of what I found out over the years because sometimes I would write an email right after the session. I always write email recaps that are very detailed but are also directed so that they don’t have to worry about what I’m trying to do during the session. They get it. They go, oh right. He wants me this, he wants that, but the thing is, I just recently said, why aren’t you responding to the emails? Because at the bottom, the email says, please respond in caps so that I know that we’re all on the same page and then there’s no response. So after two or three emails where there’s no response, I said, what’s going on, why is there no response? And then they might say, well, I don’t know how to respond or what to respond. What do you mean respond? And now maybe either I failed to communicate that correctly on the first session or something else was broken down, we dropped the ball somewhere and so then I immediately say, oh, just, just something like, yup, I understand. I got you, will do, anything. You only learn this as you’re going through the process because you might be thinking, oh, the person this, this kid doesn’t wanna learn, this kid doesn’t wanna grow, change whatever. And really they’re just saying, I don’t know what you want me to do. Tell me, tell me.
Frances Shefter: (00:9:51): And it’s all the communication. What do you do? Because I know a lot of teenagers are do this, I got this, like I don’t need you, I got this. My mom’s making me come, how do you handle those type of situations?
Frances Shefter: (00:10:05): Well, it’s a great question. First of all you get that almost all the time or the majority of the time because often when you first start with a kid, a younger person, you’re gonna get resistance and all you have to do and, it usually happens right after you establish the report because otherwise they don’t really want to listen to anything you have to say, right? And then maybe that makes sense. So, you establish a rapport, the connection, you identify with them, you have them identify with you, you let them know that you love them no matter what. But OK, and then and then when they say I got this and the evidence clearly shows that they don’t got this because you just look at their student portal and you see missed homeworks, not handed in, homeworks, not submitted homeworks, complete procrastination, you know, major test on Friday. They, they can’t, they didn’t even remember they had a test and that, that meant that we there was a breakdown in the planning, you know, with Google calendar, you know, maybe I asked them to input all the important work in the first week on Google calendar. They didn’t do that for whatever reason. They didn’t want to do it. They procrastinated to do it. They didn’t know how to do it, who knows? But it did get done. And so then when they say I got this and then you just look at the outcome or you just look at the Google calendar, I don’t see a test on the Google calendar on Friday. Why is it not there? You know, that would indicate that you’re not gonna be prepared for the test on Friday, and it’s sort of a mixture between a nuance of just being a real person and fun sort of. And then also say, wait, I don’t see anything. Where is it, how would you know, why are you not, why didn’t you set up the plan for the week or the month or the, the entire semester? Especially for college kids? You know, so now we’re sort of not going in the right direction. How can we reverse it?
Frances Shefter: (00:11:50): I like that, how can we reverse it? Holding them accountable to help with the plan? And there was something I want to go back to that you said about the parents, I mean, I’m a parent. I know you know, well, meaning as we are, it’s easier for us to do it sometimes. So, what do you do to stop the parents from enabling their children or set the expectations?
Jared Kallen: (00:12:15): Well, it’s a very important issue and it can be a very thorny issue as you point out because no parent really wants to say, you know, you’re messing this up or, even worse you do you realize how you hurt your child if you’re always prompting them to do the next task, instead of having them develop their own planning system and their own accountability system. So, often you have to have a side parent coaching in one form or another even either put zoom call, or you set your expectations straight on the contract that you send to the client. The goal is that we’re moving from codependence to independence. And part of that means you stepping off or stepping away and letting the process unfold and then seeing what happens. And so that’s sort of, I don’t think that’s a hard concept to understand, but it may be a hard concept to actually actuate or implement for any parent, you know, they’re like, well, what do you mean? What if he goes out and he continues to not brush his teeth in the morning or he can never get out of bed. I’m not gonna let him not go to school maybe a better approaches. Ok, describe to me exactly what happens in the morning. Then the mom might say, or the dad might say, well, he has four alarms go off when he sleeps through them all. Now, we have a problem. Now, we have to figure out how is he sleeping through them all? Is he shutting them all off? And then go right back to bed? Is he going to bed at 3 a.m. Which many, many kids do? How could any alarm wake him up? Or even if alarm did wake him up and he woke up, how could he go to school and be alert if he’s only got two hours of sleep? So, it’s sort of like drilling down on multiple habits that maybe have to get reversed. Usually this is not uncommon. It’s usually, you know, we might start with, oh, you know, he’s my executive functioning coach. But then I get, a lot of feedback from all parents, in the very beginning before I ever start and then all along the way. And I often ask tell me what you’re seeing. At the home because I’m not in the home. What do you see? What do you like? What don’t you like? Where is their progress? Where is there no progress? And then I might get a whole email on hygiene. Always forgets to brush his teeth, and is always late to the car. So then that makes my the sister late. Ok? And then the next session I’ll talk about what are you doing for sleep when you’re going to bed? Are you on video games till 2 a.m. How can we curb that back? You know, and then maybe you have to get into negotiation, and that’s sort of like where it’s more of an art than a science. It’s like if the kid says, look, I, hate school and I’m not going to bed before two am, I love video games. And it’s also they might say it’s social. I am with friends. So don’t tell me I’m just isolating, right? And then you have to say, ok, fine. Ok. So then, can you scale up, can you this week, can you try going from 2 a.m. to one? And then if they say yes and they do it, that’s great, then you might go the next week, 1 to 12. So you can get at least six hours of sleep. And now and then if you built this, ecosystem where there’s trust, faith, love, kind, kindness, warmth, support. And yet still the desire for real change and real outcomes, then it might just work.
Frances Shefter: (00:15:25): There’s so much to unpack there because I’m thinking that the issue is not necessarily that the child’s not getting up for school and that you’re going in with the parents and the child or the student to figure out why the child’s not getting up to school and then trying to, you know, it’s kind of like instead of throwing a drug at a disease, like find out what the reason for the symptom is and then the accountability piece comes in.
Jared Kallen: (00:15:48): But first and this is what a lot of people forget I think is that you have to model what, how it maybe should go really much better, right? So for example, let’s say a kid is, you know, chronically disorganized and chronically doesn’t want to plan ahead and it’s chronically late to school, then you have to build, you have to break it down into chunks like little chunks like, OK what time do you start to think about going to sleep? And then right after that, you say, OK, do you put your clothes out at night, usually it would be a, no, you say, could you do that? And then what clothes? And then maybe in the next day or the next week you say what clothes did you put out last night? Just to see if they’re doing it, you know, and then, and on and on and on. So it’s sort of like, if you’re a good listener and that is a skill, you know, it’s not always to be a good listener, you have to listen and, you know, they’ll say, well, I was ready for school, but then I decided to help my sister on something and then, then you might have to say, well, why do you wanna help your sister? Why? And then they might say, well, because I wanted to do a solid for, I wanted to help her and then you say, ok, but then what was the result? Well, we both got in the car late, mom was pissed off, we got to school late, we were off to a bad start. And so then you have to drill down. So how can we avoid that? If you plan to help your sister in the morning, then you have to plan to get up earlier, reset your alarm, you know, make sure your clothes are out and then let’s go, go, go, you know, and that happens with other things too. You get sort of a disconnect sometimes between what we want people to do or how to change and then how to do it, you know,how to really concretely do it. They may say, well,I can’t get up on it earlier. Then why, you know what’s going on? You know, do you have a lot of anxiety? Why do you have a lot of anxiety? And then often you can trace the level of anxiety to the low level of organization. So they’re linked, you know, they’re like inversely proportional. So if you can say wait, do you like sleep? Hell, yeah, I like sleep, Jared. Who doesn’t like sleep, right? So then, you go OK. Well, do you see that if your Google calendar is filled up and it syncs your iphone and you know, you, all that you owe for school right? Then you’re gonna get more sleep because you’ll know what’s coming up, you know what you have to do. Hopefully you’ll do it and then you’ll be done instead of fishing around on your student portal at 11 at night and saying, oh wow. I have a test. I have a quiz. Oh Wow, it’s worth 50 points. I’m screwed. Anything like that. That’s bad. So, its, the most amazing thing about this whole niche of neurodivergent learning and Neurodivision, neurodivergent coaching is that there are so many nuances which you’re touching on. There are so, you know, a lot of things, you get a lot of no’s instead of yeses and you have to turn them into yeses. You get a lot of butts and you don’t want the butts. You know, like when someone says, but you have to listen really closely. Then to be honest with you, it’s a whole language. So if I say to a kid, can you do this? They almost always will say yes. But the only the next logical question that anyone could ask is, will you do it? Will you do it? And they always do, they might pause but they always say I’ll do it. You know, it’s almost like they’ve surrendered in the moment or maybe just a moment. But they say we’ll do it, I’ll do it.
Frances Shefter: (00:19:17): It’s so funny. You say that because it just, what triggered for me is when I was a kid and we would go up to teachers and say, can I go to the bathroom and the teachers, like, I don’t know, can you, you go? Right. Right. Oh, yeah. May I go to the, you know?
Jared Kallen: (00:19:32): Especially within the neurodivergent households there is a lot of family stress. There are a lot of negative family dynamics there. You know, a lot. Sometimes when I get my first call from my mom or dad it could be something like I have had it. I’ve tried, I’ve tried everything. I’ve modeled everything probably the way you do. And that’s true. It’s a true statement. They’re saying, and i’m at that point, sometimes they just want to hand the kid over to me and say just, you know, and I might get a really good email directive from them which I usually ask for about the, the top five or six things they really want to see change or, you know, the, the top five or six weaknesses. And then sometimes it’s like, just do your thing, you know, and after every session, every parent or, client or guardian gets a very detailed email recap from me about what’s going right, what’s going wrong where we’re making progress where we’re not and it doesn’t just address academic stuff. It’s social, emotional behavioral attitudes, pro maybe false narratives that they’re harboring. And it’s all in there and, what the only thing that does, that is somewhat very useful. So, the parents can read it and if they’re ok with how things are going, they don’t have to bring it up. They don’t have to say, how did this session go with Jared or how are you doing, or where’s your homework or do you think it’s working or do you think your writing is getting stronger because they got the email recap? And so because a lot of times some parents are like, this is great. Let’s just do it. This is a lot better than what’s happening currently. So, you know, it’s like I have to hold myself accountable, which means I have to listen and I have to have a plan and I have to have tools. I have to hold the kid accountable because that’s our subject. I also have to have the parents accountable because sometimes they may be just habitually doing something that is not going to lead to growth or maybe, stagnation if that makes sense.
Frances Shefter: (00:21:35): No, totally. And it’s just, it makes sense because then the parents know exactly what’s going on because I know what, well, I shouldn’t even say just teenagers. My nine year old does it too. Like, so what did you do today? Nothing. What did you learn? Nothing. I was just gonna say that as parents we want to know, well, are we spending money is something happening? But that you give that update? Is that reassurance?
Jared Kallen: (00:22:05): Yeah. And Francis, you bring up a great point because a lot of people do pay me and they want to see results. And so of course, that’s understandable.Now we have to deal with expectations and the expectations are dangerous because they can quickly become premeditated resentment. You know, they can say, I’m paying this money and I don’t see much change or the grades haven’t really improved that much or something like that. And so what’s really going on? But the problem is quote unquote is multifactorial and has been going on usually for years. So on my contract, there is a little clause that I had to put in there many years ago that just says if you’re expecting really quick results or a huge uptick in grades or behavior, I am not your guy because that’s what I’ve experienced, you know. So if you have a first or second session and a parent says, what do you think? You know, do you think there’s, is there hope, you know the most accurate answer and the most genuine answer is, I don’t know yet. I’m just starting. Sometimes it’s a really good story because the parents or guardians might get in the habit of just filling me in on what they’re seeing in the home, what they like, what they don’t like. And then that gives me an opportunity to pick and choose my approach and how I want to go about it without pinning anything on the parents. But I can get at it and then I can say, you know, what’s going on here or here or here, it could be relationship, it could be social anxiety, it could be that the girl or guy is worried about an upcoming date and they cannot do work because they are just stuck on the date. How am I gonna look? How’s it gonna go? Is this real? He’s so good looking whatever it is, right? And so then it’s my job to say, ok, it’s understandable that you’re excited about that excited about the date or nervous about the date. But we have three days before the date and the work must get done one way or another. It’s gotta get done, you know, because your first job at school or in college is to get the work done or to learn, and of course we want you to have fun. That’s why I say have fun and get things done. But, it starts with you and then, better time management and better focus and better commitment and better self advocating with teachers and professors. And the end goal is always, if you do it, that you will have more fun, you’ll get more things done and you’ll have more time for the dates and the frat parties and the good stuff. It sort of starts there and often it takes a while for people to realize that, oh, you know, this went really better because my Google calendar was fully filled up. So I knew what I had to do. I knew that I had to do it before I went to the party or went to the football game or whatever I did. It was a good story.
Frances Shefter: (00:24:57): Yeah, it makes me think about, there’s so many times that we procrastinate. I mean, even as adults and put things off and put things off and I’m thinking like, oh, I’ll do it over the weekend but then for the next three days it’s hanging over my head. And so I’m not in the moment I’m not enjoying what I’m doing. Because it’s hanging and that if I would just take the 20 minutes and get the thing done that space in my head opens up for more fun.
Jared Kallen: (00:25:21): But that, and that’s why, you know, procrastination as, you know, is like, you know, one of the huge hallmarks, all many neuro neuro diversion, learners and the, you know, there’s there, you can’t really, it’s not, it’s, it’s not very easy to scur around that, you know, I mean, because you just have it just like the Nike commercial says, just do it, do it, you know, don’t put it off, do it, do it to the best of your ability and, and then move on, you know, and and to avoid like, overwhelm, instead of focusing on grades like a B or C or, or 90 versus 100 versus 70 we focus on processes, you know, tools. So, basically, you know, if a kid’s organized, then the outcome is almost always gonna be better than if the kid is not organized, right? And so if you see your organization, you can just say way to go, we’re, we’re going in the right direction. Let’s, let’s keep it real, let’s keep it rolling, you know, and, and it’s sort of it’s sort of, you know, come, it makes common sense, it’s common sense go. But a lot of people don’t, don’t always see that connection and then when they do, they get it more excited, which then promotes more inputs in the Google calendar, more organization, more time management because they see, they sort of start to see, you know, that it’s working, you know. And so, , but it, you know, the, the bottom line is that you, we have to meet, meet the, the client where he or she is, you know, you can’t, they, they, you, you may have to start off slower than you ever have in the past and then ramp up, you know, because every kid is different. You know, , if I get a referral from one therapist as soon as he goes, you gotta go real slow with this one. I’m telling you right now. Speak slowly, you know, lower, you know, lower the vole, you know, and then we, we might go into the particulars of that kid, you know, and, but that’s good guidance, you know, and, and then, but with every client at some point, sometimes you have to say it’s time to go. Let’s go, you know. You know, we’ve been, we’ve been, we’ve, we’ve sort of done it halfway here, you know, we, we missed a little bit of here or, you know, even though even after I showed you just to say, yep, I got the email or got you or we’re good or whatever, it’s still not that you’re still not responding, what’s the problem? You know, what, what, what’s stopping you?
Frances Shefter: (00:27:34): Right? And when I’m hearing I hate grades or society puts so much on grades and the sad thing is when you look at the grades, there are some people that get straight A’s without even cracking a book, you know, they don’t have to do anything and then others that are struggling and, work so hard and they get that C, but it’s only a C, and our society makes the A look so much better than the C where in reality, the C is the one that did all the work and the effort behind it.
Jared Kallen: (00:28:08): I say that the most important word in the English language is try, try, try because that addresses your point, then you’re not comparing am A student to a C student or an, A paper, a C paper you’re looking to see for evidence of a real attempt at whatever the task is. And then the second two most important words following try is try harder, you’re working with the situation and if those things are done, the grades will always be better, the outcomes will always be better because they could not be the person who before now has maybe not tried much or maybe listened to someone who called them quote stupid or dumb and all those negative things that we hear and especially in the space now they’re starting to say, well I just took that as the gospel. I didn’t try because, why would I? I’m stupid, right? I’m dumb. You know, I’m not… What’s the point? Somebody told me that the best job I’m gonna have is whatever. And I didn’t like it. So why should I try? So you have to reverse that, like with writing. There’s some kids, and they say the same things. The plan… Some kids will come on the screen, like we are right now, and they’ll say, ‘I don’t plan, and I’m not gonna plan.’ So there you go, you have to work with that. You might have to, and they might say, ‘Besides, I don’t have to plan because I don’t plan to go to college.’ And then you might say, ‘Well, what do you plan to do?’ And they might say, ‘Well, I’m pretty entrepreneurial. I’ve been selling sneakers on the sneaker stock market. So, that’s what I’m gonna do.’ So then, you might say, ‘Well, let’s say we’re talking about writing. They’re not gonna write about history or English; they will refuse. But if you tell them to write a really good paragraph using the tool you just gave them in terms of writing, like a body paragraph, but telling me and explaining to me why it’s hard to succeed at the sneaker stock market, then they’ll do it because this is something that they like. They get it; they wanna make money; they’re interested; they’re engaged. You know, and that’s happened numerous times where they might say, ‘I hate English. I hate history. So don’t teach me any of that stuff.’ And I say, ‘Okay, what do you like? What floats your boat?’ And then from there, you say, ‘They’re right about that,’ and then you get less resistance because you’re like, ‘This guy’s working with me. I might as well do something here.’ You know, and sometimes they see really good results. And then, hopefully, we can transfer that, you know, the writing about the sneaker sales market, stock market, sorry, to whatever they have to do to make themselves more productive and happy in whatever they choose to do.
Frances Shefter: (00:30:41): Right, it’s happened, it’s happened to their zones, to where their genius zone is. You know, interesting. Yeah, kids are like, ‘I don’t want to read that. It’s, you know, it’s boring. Who wants to read history?’ You’re right. Okay, let’s make it a little more fun. And, you know, can you pick out the top three, whatever in the reading?
Jared Kallen: (00:31:01): I went into it. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, you know, I’m seeing more and more that there are a lot of delusional thoughts and false narratives going on. So I’ve had a couple of clients over the last couple of years that, you know, they reject school or something, and then I say, ‘What will you do?’ And they say, ‘Well, everyone’s making money in Bitcoin trading, so I’m gonna do Bitcoin.’ Okay. But when you look at the actual reality, very few people will make money with Bitcoin. And more to the point, almost nobody makes money on Bitcoin unless they know exactly what they’re doing.
So, sometimes you have to challenge them. Have you Bitcoin traded before? Have you made any money? Sometimes you find out they haven’t even tried it or don’t know much about it or lost money. It’s just a way to avoid the more traditional path. The same thing happened with someone I coached a couple of years ago. They said, ‘I’m going to be a realtor. They make tons of money.’ Okay. But they didn’t know anything about it. So, I linked them up with some realtors I knew and said, ‘Spend a day with them, see the whole process, cold calls, visits, showing houses, dealing with difficult clients.’ Understand that in commission-based jobs, you only get paid when you close a deal. Do you even understand what you’re talking about? Are you willing to research this before deciding to be a Bitcoin trader or a realtor without any context or information, instead of focusing on school or other options?
Frances Shefter: (00:33:12): The work behind it reminds me of basketball players. Professional basketball players will be like, ‘Oh, they make millions, you know, and I just want to shoot hoops.’ But they don’t see the player that misses the free throw and, after the game, for three hours, will sit there, practicing free throw after free throw after free throw.
Jared Kallen: (00:33:32): Absolutely. And that’s what I always bring up with athletes. They often mention Michael Jordan as the best ever or Kobe Bryant. Michael Jordan, for example, has many videos where people say, ‘You’re the best, and you’re so rich, life must have been easy.’ His resounding message is, ‘No, it was not easy.’ To your point, he was in the gym all the time. We all know he got cut from the ninth-grade team and had to fight to get back on varsity. There are videos highlighting how he worked tirelessly on the court and pushed everyone else around him as a leader. This kind of dedication was required, and it’s the same for Kobe Bryant and many other athletes. People often only see the end result and the fame or money, but, as you mentioned, it’s about the hard work put in between ages 10 and 18 before they got drafted.
Frances Shefter: (00:34:24): It’s the will behind the skill.
Jared Kallen: (00:34:26): Yeah, the will behind the skill. Exactly. It’s like, you know, there are tons of people that I coach, and other people coach, who have sky-high IQs. They’re super smart. So it’s not about the skill, but they may have ADHD or something. Where the will comes in is, will you text me more clearly every day? Will you make sure and then double-check your Google calendar and cross-check it with your specific student portal to make sure you haven’t missed anything, big or small? That’s the will part. If we can get that, we’re making progress.
A lot of therapists I talk to focus on just a couple of things. One is consistency. Are we getting more consistent? Are we growing? For example, if the kid was supposed to text every day for the week but only texted once, can we get it to three or four times per week? That’s growth, that’s a win, as opposed to a lower grade or fewer texts.
If a Google calendar was initially very empty and incomplete, but a week or two later, it’s much more populated, that’s a huge win. We should celebrate those achievements.
Frances Shefter: (00:35:48): Right, it’s like, and what comes to mind for me is truancy because I’ve had a lot of truancy cases with DC Superior Court. You know, when a kid never goes to school, and we manage to get them to go once a week, that’s a cause for celebration. But the school is always like, ‘He needs to be here every day.’ I’m thinking, can’t we just celebrate the fact that he’s going once a week? Because if he feels a sense of accomplishment once a week, he’s more likely to want to come back the next day, you know.
Jared Kallen: (00:36:14): But yeah, I mean, a lot of it is, to your point, I only coach with positive reinforcement. So, for example, if a kid doesn’t do much during the week, let’s say from one session to the next session, like it’s a weekly session, say, on Monday at 5 p.m., and the next session will be the following Monday at 5 p.m. If the kid drops the ball for whatever reason—no homework submitted, didn’t do the homework, totally unprepared for the math test, whatever it is—what a lot of people, including parents, would say is, ‘What were you thinking?’ They’ll scream it. ‘You knew the test was coming, and there was no preparation. So why are you surprised when you got a bad grade?’
I don’t do that. I say, ‘Let’s look at your week. Let’s examine what happened. What are the concrete, granular details? How did you manage your time? Where did you spend your time? What did you focus on? Did you self-advocate with the teacher? Did you send the teacher an email? Did you request a quick tutor for that subject?’ There are always plenty of tutors available. That’s where it really matters.
It’s not about blaming; it’s about finding solutions. So if a lot of things were dropped the previous week, our only job is to figure out how to prevent it from happening next week. What needs to be made up? What are the priorities? Who needs to be contacted for an extension? Where are you confused, especially with something like an essay prompt? What steps can you take on a daily basis to catch up, keep going, and avoid a disastrous semester?”
Frances Shefter: (00:38:08): Right? Because the, “what were you thinking? All the kid here, I’m a failure. I wasn’t thinking” and then go from there.
Jared Kallen: (00:38:14): Yeah, but to the parents’ credit, you know, we walk a fine line. It’s okay; it’s not crazy to think that a whole week went by with big assessments due, and maybe it wasn’t at the top of your mind. Then, when you finally realized it, some kids—though not all—get upset. They say, ‘Oh, I did poorly on that exam.’ And you ask, ‘Well, let’s look at the situation. When did you prepare? Not much? I didn’t really prepare then. How did you think you were going to do? Well, I don’t know.’
Many kids say ‘I don’t know,’ and I’ve seen this a lot during Zoom calls with therapists. We share the same observations. Sometimes therapists point out that kids say ‘I don’t know’ frequently, and that doesn’t help. There’s usually something that happened within the past 24 hours—distractions, video games, daydreaming, fear, confusion, or just an attitude of overconfidence—that prevented them from focusing on the task at hand. It’s like not emailing the teacher for clarification or preparing adequately for a big math or Spanish test or even something like a rough draft. It’s a common pattern.
Frances Shefter: (00:39:51): It reminds me of the personal growth seminars. I did way back when and if you ever said, I don’t know, the response was always, well, if you did know, what would the answer be?
Jared Kallen: (00:40:01): Oh, that’s good. I like that.
Frances Shefter: (00:40:02): Right? Because like we do know, we know we’re just we’re blocking it out and so that it just makes you think differently.
Jared Kallen: (00:40:11): I really like that a lot. What you just said makes a lot of sense, and I really appreciate it. Sometimes you have to step out to get back in with anybody. Instead of saying, ‘What were you thinking?’ as many people might do, the more creative or results-oriented person might ask, ‘Okay, what were you doing? How did you see this playing out, or did you not see it playing out at all?’ Some people can’t see the connection between lack of effort and a bad outcome. They tend to hang on to hope, thinking everything will be alright, but sometimes you have to point out that if you did nothing, how would it work out since you’re the architect of your own life?
For example, the phone can be a big distraction. Screen addiction is widespread. Sometimes in my email recaps, which go directly to students, especially those at colleges and universities, I might include a message like ‘Put the phone down, put the phone down, put the phone down.’ Then, as a reward (since we all deal with positive reinforcement, rewards, and consequences), I suggest turning the phone back on, but only after you’ve completed your work. Go to the library, turn the phone off while you work, and then turn it back on. This can be more efficient because you’re not constantly responding in real time. You can focus on your work first and then enjoy your free time without distractions.
Frances Shefter: (00:42:06): Right? That makes so much sense. I heard so much about it. I wanna find out more about your program. So I know you said something about like an hour a week and then texting every day. How is it when somebody engages with you? What does the program look like?
Jared Kallen: (00:42:21): The program works like this: I make a bargain with both the parent and the kid. If they follow roughly 80% of my suggestions, then the parent cannot nag them about academic stuff. However, this doesn’t extend to other responsibilities like taking out the trash, doing the dishes, or helping with the laundry.
The bargain is genuine. If the kid genuinely follows about 80% of what I recommend—texting, planning, prioritizing, self-advocating with teachers, doing the work, focusing, and accepting help—then the agreement holds. Many kids, especially those in families with complicated dynamics, appreciate it. I often ask them, ‘How does it sound not to be constantly asked by your parents for three months about your schoolwork? Are you ready for the quiz? Have you prepared for the test? Is your essay done? Did you do the rough draft?’ Almost all of them enthusiastically agree. However, the real test is when it comes to implementation. When does it actually happen?
Frances Shefter: (00:43:41): Right. As a parent, I’m like, oh my God, I don’t have to ask my kid anymore, you know.
Jared Kallen: (00:43:47): Right, well, that’s one of the appealing aspects of it. However, it’s essential to understand that when you present this equation – whether it’s the bargain, negotiation, or the ‘no nagging’ rule – it works the other way too. If you choose not to take any action, your parents can become quite involved and concerned. They love you, they’re your parents, they’re providing for you, and they have expectations. They want to see results.
Ultimately, it all comes down to your choice. Sometimes, I need to emphasize this point with a kid or any client: ‘It’s your life.’ I might have to repeat it to drive the message home. ‘It’s your life.’ They might initially look puzzled or unsure, but I clarify that their parents are mostly irrelevant except for their love and support. Beyond that, it’s up to them to shape their own life, find a job, earn a living, and build a career. They need to figure it out.
This approach can be effective because it counters the enabling dynamic. It empowers them and emphasizes that while they may need to listen to their parents to some extent, ultimately, it’s their life and their decisions that matter.
Frances Shefter: (00:44:47): And it’s giving them ownership of “I don’t have to” Yes, you have to do what your parents say to an extent, but it’s your life. Do you want to get there in life or not? You know?
Jared Kallen: (00:44:58): Yeah, absolutely. And that’s where the concept that many therapists and coaches discuss comes into play – the concept of natural consequences. It’s challenging to implement, especially for parents or anyone, but it’s often crucial because it can drive personal growth.
Sometimes, when you receive a call or email from a concerned parent because their child hasn’t been doing any schoolwork, especially for a significant test, and their grades are on the line, the best response may be to allow them to face the possibility of failure. You’ve probably heard the phrase ‘let them fail.’ It can be tough to watch, but we can’t rescue or save anyone. We only have control over two things in our lives: our attitudes and our actions. Yelling at a kid or asking, ‘What were you thinking?’ usually doesn’t help.
In these situations, you can convey to parents or the child that they are ultimately responsible for their choices. Life is full of choices, and they make those choices. They either reap the rewards or face the consequences. The idea of hitting rock bottom is like the story of an alcoholic who lost everything, and when God offers to help, they ask if they can get back to it later. It reflects hesitation to change.
So, it’s important to address these issues promptly. Waiting another year with average grades, no direction, and lots of frustration isn’t a good option. It’s better to work hard, enjoy some fun, and engage in sports. Encouraging ownership and agency is crucial. We hope they embrace it, but if they don’t, we ask them why or share stories, which are powerful coaching tools.
Comparing oneself to others is generally unhelpful. It can lead to vanity or bitterness. The key is to focus on your own path and let the outcomes unfold naturally. This approach has often worked well for me.
Many principles and maxims that people have shared over the years may have sounded good in the past but don’t necessarily work in every situation. For example, ‘If nothing changes, then nothing changes.’ Sometimes, you need to assess the current situation and ask, ‘What do we do?
Frances Shefter: (00:49:00): You know, if you keep doing what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always gotten. Right?
Jared Kallen: (00:49:05): Right. You’ve probably heard the saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. We don’t want to be in that cycle anymore. That’s a fundamental aspect of our approach—let’s break free from this pattern and be real. What do you want to achieve from this experience, and how can I support you in achieving it? I’m willing to do whatever it takes. This message is crucial when establishing rapport with clients. It’s like saying, ‘I’ve got your back, and we’re in this together. Let’s go.’
I remember a student who had to excel on a final research paper a couple of years ago. He had a habit of procrastinating, but in that critical moment, I told him, ‘I’ll review your paper anytime it’s ready. If you call me at 2 a.m., I’ll get up, have some coffee, and provide feedback on the entire paper. You need to be on the other end of that Google Docs and be ready to accept or reject my suggestions and then submit the paper on time.’ Sometimes, you have to go the extra mile.
Building rapport is essential because many people, including therapists, struggle when they haven’t established a strong connection with their clients. Our friend David Levin, who’s a master at this, emphasizes the importance of unconventional approaches. I consider myself unconventional too, and I believe it’s beneficial for achieving positive outcomes, fostering a good atmosphere, and ultimately leading to improvement instead of stagnation or decline.
Frances Shefter: (00:50:41): Right? And I just noticed the time and I know we have to wrap up. So do you work with only high school and college or what age, grade?
Jared Kallen: (00:50:49): Yeah, that’s a great question. So I work with various age groups, including middle school, high school, college, graduate school, and a specific group I particularly enjoy working with are those in their twenties through their mid-thirties, often referred to as ‘failure to launch’ individuals. This demographic is more intriguing to me because when you’re working with middle school, high school, or college students, you often deal with recurring themes like setting goals, managing their time, clear communication, and self-advocacy. Once you’ve got those fundamentals in place, you’re good to go.
However, with the ‘failure to launch’ group, you’re dealing with people who may have tried something and didn’t succeed or who have pursued a career path like law but realized it’s not for them after experiencing the reality of billable hours. In these cases, it requires a hands-on, interactive coaching approach. I ask questions like, ‘What didn’t you like about your previous career?’ and ‘What are your strengths and weaknesses?’ Then, I leverage my network to connect them with professionals in fields they might be interested in. They can have coffee or lunch with these people and ask candid questions about their jobs, both the pros and cons, salary details, and more. The goal is to avoid making another career mistake.
In the ‘failure to launch’ group, many individuals might have neurodivergent traits, but they could also struggle with other challenges like addiction, alcohol, cannabis, excessive screen time, and more. It’s often difficult to get someone between the ages of 20 and 33 to completely eliminate a bad habit. This is where the concept of harm reduction comes into play. For instance, if someone is consuming nine beers a night, we might aim to reduce it to three beers over two weeks. Achieving that reduction is considered a win.
When I work with these individuals, I maintain open communication channels. I check my email and text messages regularly since much of our communication happens through text these days. After that, we typically engage in in-depth conversations about how I work and what I can do to help them. They appreciate receiving email recaps, as it eliminates the need to check portals.
To build rapport and better understand their needs, I send out a series of questions. These questions cover various aspects, including their experiences as students, their relationships with teachers and tutors, their parents’ concerns, and even personal preferences such as favorite sports, heroes, foods, and what might upset their children. This level of engagement helps strengthen our connection. Once they provide their answers, we finalize a contract, and we’re ready to move forward.
Frances Shefter: (00:54:08): That is awesome. And I know we’re gonna have your email and phone number in the show notes below. Thank you so much. This was so awesome and wonderful.
Jared Kallen: (00:54:16): Yeah, it was a lot of fun. I really appreciate it. And you mentioned, should I give a shout-out to other professionals? Absolutely! There are some fantastic professionals out there doing great work. Let me highlight a few:
Frances Shefter: (00:56:05): That’s awesome. Thank you so much. I will definitely reach out to all of these people.
Jared Kallen: (00:56:08): All right. Sounds good. Thanks very much.
VOICEOVER: (00:56:14): You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEP® with your host, Frances Shefter. Remember you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through www.Shefterlaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments and sharing the show with others through YouTube LinkedIn Apple podcast, Spotify, Google Podcast, Stitcher and more.
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