Stress-Free IEP™: Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
In this episode of Stress-Free IEP™: Frances speaks with Stephanie Frumkin of Exceptional Educational Solutions. Stephanie specializes in helping bright and gifted children and teens with learning differences succeed in school.
Voiceover (⏱ 00:00:02): Welcome to Stress-Free IEP™. You do not need to do it all alone with your host Francis Schefter principle of Schefter law. She streams a show live on facebook on the last Tuesday of every month at noon Eastern. Get more details and catch prior episodes at www.Shefterlaw.com. The Stress-Free IEP™ video podcast is also posted on Youtube and linkedin and you can listen to episodes through apple podcasts, Spotify, google podcasts, stitcher and more. Now here’s the host of Stress-Free IEP™ Frances Shefter.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:00:46): Hi welcome everyone. I am so excited to have my next guest on our show, Stephanie Frumkin. I’ve been wanting to have Stephanie on for a while. I know it’s our third episode. I’m excited. She’s one of our top five. Stephanie, please introduce yourself and let everybody know what you do.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:01:05): Yeah thank you so much Frances. I’m very excited to be on. I appreciate you inviting me as a guest. Um I’ve been watching your videos and so I’m excited to actually be on with you. So a little bit about myself. So I’m an educational consultant. I’m the founder and CEO of exceptional educational solutions. So they said I’m an educational consultant but my focus really is bright and gifted students um in K to 12 with learning differences. So I work with a lot of twice exceptional families with kids that are twice exceptional who are you know very you know very smart, you know high Q. And also have some challenges going on for like for example ADHD, Autism, anxiety, specific specific learning disabilities such as dyslexia, dysgraphia, language disorders, you name it. Um These kids are out of the box and they tend to be kind of complex because they’ve got the highs, they’ve got a lot of strength a lot going for them. And they also have some of the challenges so they need support. So it’s kind of that mix. So they’re super complex kiddos and I really enjoy it. I love it. It’s very rewarding
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:02:9): and it’s so awesome that you do that because it’s I know it’s the new category the 2E. But so many of our children don’t fit in the box that IDEA forces us to label them and code them and so forth. And our 2E kids especially go undiagnosed or unrecognized or um you know just not correct placements because they’re so complex. So what do you look at? Like when you’re looking at the families and talking to the families about different schools, what are some of the things like questions you might ask families to help guide them in the right direction?
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:02:47): Right? So um so just a little bit more background. I do help parents figure out the best option for them. So I’m looking we’re looking at public school, we’re looking at private school, we’re looking at home school online school, some kind of hybrid approach. So we’ve got a lot of options at our fingertips. So I try to customize it to each individual family like whatever educational option is best for them. But to answer your question about and what do I ask them I guess I start with a really the the biggest part of my process is really getting to know the individual child who they are. You know that goes along with all their strengths and all their challenges and just trying to really get to know who they are. And I do that in a lot of ways by I um you know I read their reports they have usually have multiple psychological reports but whatever I can do to find out more about the child I have a really um extensive interview with the parents. I meet the child sometimes I do a classroom observation um talk to teachers, talk to um therapist. Just again just really really get to know the child and from that point um you know I’m able to sort of figure out what what might make sense and we work together in a process to get there.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:04:02): I love hearing that. I mean there’s definitely times that I’ve had clients come to me because of placement issues in Montgomery County or D. C. Um and they are not agreeing with the school and what’s the best and unfortunately the law doesn’t provide for the best education for our Children but good enough education. And there have definitely been times where I’ve advised parents that if private school is an option it might be the better route to go
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:04:33): I love having you as a resource because as much as I know as public schools and some of the private schools I don’t always know as well how to fit a family you know how to make it work um for the student of what’s best I hear what. But I’m assuming you’re in the schools more and know the profile of all the different schools. Is that correct?
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:04:54): Right. Yes. No I loved it. One of my favorite parts of my job is going out and visiting schools which pandemic made it difficult to get out there. But I love when I can visit schools and see because each school is so unique and I do sort of the D. C. Metro area like yourself. Um And yeah there’s just there’s so many schools in this area so I find that very exciting because we have like Montessori schools, we have parochial schools, we have um schools that you know a democratic school. We have just so many different types of schools in the area. It’s just a project based learning. I mean there’s just so many really cool um different types of schools out there and then we have um we have homeschool co ops that have different flavors. There’s some that do like serve more of the gifted population and some that are just more, you know, like have a social justice value. There’s just so much out there. So I love, I love that that there’s so much variety of classes for their families to take this online. I mean there’s just, I love it. There’s so much, I’m just like, I’m all about options and what life does work best. So I mean, clearly I’m, you know, I’m also an advocate. I’m public school advocate and in a private school advocate, whatever. You know, I try to help the families however I can, but you’re right. It is a bit limiting if you’re only, I mean it’s definitely what you do is super valuable, but it, you know, it’s for the individual family. It could be limiting in what would be the actually the best, the best fit for them, Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:06:19): Right. And unfortunately sometimes finances is huge because I’m assuming the private schools are costly and there’s not getting the difference between private schools and non publics. I know I’ve done a video on that because a lot of people get confused like, well, can’t we get, you know, the county to pay for our private school? It’s like, well,
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:06:43): no, a
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:06:44): non public school, which is a special ed school, which are very different. Can you go into a little bit of the differences that you see with the private and non publics.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:06:54): Well, sure what um, I mean, my understanding of non publics is generally they’re following. Um They’re following IEPs. There they have to have certain standards they have to follow that are based on the state standards. So they have you know your parents with us. But um you know they have to meet their child’s IEP. There’s a lot more flexibility in a private school. I mean they may it may or may not serve a child but you know clearly the individual what will work best. But I mean some private schools are able to serve needs not following exactly. IEP mean usually they depends on doing on the type of school. I mean some of them do offer a lot of support and have therapies involved. But some of them you know some kids like that in a public school setting where they actually they need an IEP and they need a lot of support. Just if they have like alternative type environment. They might not need a lot of support. They could just have a little plan perhaps or if it’s very small and everyone knows everybody and the teachers are warm and loving and have a pause relationship. I mean a lot of students they can do really well with that. So they wouldn’t might not need all the rigorous supports that they might need in a non public school or public school. I mean some kids need that clearly and
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:08:06): right now it’s definitely I mean the the non public it’s all special education students. So the profile is very different of what the child what your child is and for our two E kids I know can be challenging because although the non publics are on the regular curriculum, high school, you know what they’re supposed to be on the regular education curriculum that they’re following, it can be a little bit more challenging and sometimes are two e kids because their intellect is so high, they tend to get bored. And I know from my classroom days, a bored child is just as bad, just has just as difficult of a time as a child that’s lost because that’s when the behaviors come out.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:08:49): Yes, exactly. I wish schools would have a better understanding of that and when they’re determining like this child, you know, as eligible for an IEP. You know, a lot of times dismiss them because their grades are good. Well you know, they test well. I mean these are these two kids, they, yeah, they tend to test very well. At the very least some of the some do do really well with their grades, some don’t, some have perfectionist tendencies and a lot of anxiety. So even though their grades are good, that might not actually be a good sign. Some of them have straight A’s and um actually might be showing their like severe anxiety. Um I’ve
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:9:26): seen that and I’ve seen a lot that schools say, well they’re, you know, they’re so smart and they’re doing it all it’s all behavior that they’re not doing turning in their homework or you know um Which is our executive functioning issues with our autism spectrum Children or even our A. D. H. D. Children. And so they need that support. And schools are like no they have a high I. Q. Um No I’ve seen that a lot and have to I fight the schools often on that
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:9:55): um get
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:9:56): the right environment. Um I know class size is huge though with the private schools,
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:10:02): the private schools. Um No
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:10:07): huge is in that they’re smaller. Class size is a huge factor that you have to that didn’t come out right.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:10:14): Yeah. I mean I will say that that would be a benefit to the a lot of the private schools that there’s a lot of them have a very small classes. Or it could be a very small environment where some of that anxiety will just dissipate. And I mentioned anxiety a lot I think because of the pandemic and just there’s so much anxiety but also I do believe that kids who are not getting their their needs met in school in public school. They are they I mean there’s I I’m finding that there’s this um autism anxiety I find autism, ADHD, And anxiety they all go together. Um Even or dyslexia anxiety ptsd anxiety. There’s always like the anxiety piece and sometimes with depression and self esteem is really a big concern because if they’re not getting their needs in school met then they cycle and um they feel badly about themselves. They can’t meet the expectations of what their you know what teachers expect from them. And some of them who um mask their disability is very well. They’re not getting served well. So a private school that’s smaller could actually
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:11:18): And I say that a lot I 100% agree with you with anxiety. It’s it’s often because the one of the challenges or um with our two week kids is that they’re bright enough to know that they’re different and that is such a hard place to be because unfortunately the way our society is we don’t accept different as much as we can.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:11:48): Right? Right. And even the whole IEP Model is just medical model, the diagnosis with you know, rather than like neuro diversity. The diversity movement, it’s very positive and so people are different people think differently. Let’s accept people that are different and schools are you know are just not set up that way. I think currently.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:12:9): Right, and I know one of the issues I’ve had with eligibility is that everybody in the room at an I. E. P. Table agrees that the child needs some extra supports. But then when you go down the eligibility checklist, they don’t fit in this box. They don’t fit in that box. They don’t fit in this box. Oh well they don’t qualify we can’t give them supports. And it’s just so frustrating because if a kid needs supports, we should be able to put supports in place. Yeah, but that’s a whole other discussion of how
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:12:43): I agree completely. It’s fairly hard and it seems some, I don’t know less staffing shortages. I don’t know what seems to be even harder to get eligibility these days.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:12:55): I agree. It’s challenging because I see also the problems that a lot of schools, I don’t know if you’re seeing this as well. Is that a lot of schools we’ve said if the child succeeding, they don’t need an IEP. But they don’t factor in all of this outside things that the parents tend to do. The parents hire the tutors and the parents have the executive functioning coach and all the things that the school should be doing the parents are providing.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:13:25): Exactly because I mean parents like you can’t watch your child fail, you’re not willing. You know, that’s like I think that’s the hard thing in public, you know that Children are sort of expected to fail in order to get support. And as parents, you know, we try not to let our kids fail. Like you said, like if we can afford it, we will hire tutors and therapist and then right then it looks like they’re doing okay. But yeah
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:13:51): and the good news on that, the law is clear about that, that we do not have to let your child fail in order to prove they need services. Um, and I’ve had a couple of IEP meetings where I’ve been able to go in and say, okay, well the child is doing so well because mom, private tutor dad, you know, whoever at home is giving all of the support and teaching all of the things and now there’s issues at home. Whereas if we take those factors and put the supports in the school where it should be, it just makes a happier family and a well rounded child and the child’s happier because then they can not have to be on all of the time.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:14:39): And I mean it’s, it’s all, I mean, I say it all the time, it’s all about the kids and it’s focused on the kids. Um, I love hearing that you go in and get to know the child. Um, because while I’ll do like the paper side and get to know the child in the interview with the parents and something and it’s a little bit more limited when we’re going in the public school, but you get to go in and really get to know the child and match them with a good school. Um, So what are some of the questions you might ask parents to help them because I know you’ve said sometimes parents come to you thinking they’re gonna go one way and then it totally you know it’s another way. Yes. What are the questions you asked to get them there.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:15:24): So I’ll talk a little bit about the first part of what you just said because I think it’s really interesting kind of very interesting in my work because because as I said I work with some of these complex profiles and parents. They just say oh like I think I want I want you to help me find a private school for my child or I want you help me with my child IEP. Or I want you to help me home school. I don’t know whatever it is. There’s a lot of times they’ll come in, they’ll come to me and and but then when once I dive in I find that once I start I read the paperwork, I talk to the child and talk to the family a lot of times we’ll go in multiple directions and that’s like actually the crux of my work really is. It’s just being there for the family and getting all the information and guiding them and sort of this journey that and to you know, but I always try to remind my parents it’s a process, we will get there like like take several months but just engage with me in the process and um I definitely have a pretty good intuition after like gathering a lot of information. I kind of have a sense like where I think this child should be. And sometimes it takes a little time to get the parents on board with that. I have to sort of help them see or might try a few things and you know I might ask them to go visit some a few schools or consider this and sometimes it takes a little time. But and then sometimes things happen like in the middle of our process like the child of a. Now they’re they’re in a private school and now they’ve um started getting counseled out of their private school and now we have to look at something for the intermediate placement and and long term. So you know it’s just a little bit you know it’s a little a little crazy. But I I mean I love it it’s super rewarding but
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:17:00): it’s so great that you’re there and available for the parents because I mean it’s hard you know my daughter, I’ve always open about it. My daughter has an IEP. And I remember going and the mom guilt because this is what I do for a living. I’m a former teacher, I’m a former special ed teacher. I was my child you know and then not always knowing what’s right.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:17:20): Yeah I can relate to that because I feel like also similar similar situation here and it’s really different when it’s your own child. And actually that’s how I got into this work because I had a really hard time as a parent trying to figure out the best educational options for my child. We went a lot of different directions. So I feel like I want to offer that to other parents, but I do want to, I want to ask you a question that you asked me. Like, what do we like, what do I ask them? So, I mean, some of the things that I will, you know, I want to uncover for sure. So it’s a process which is like reading paperwork, interviewing the child, observing the child, talking to parents, whatever, you know, whoever talking to a therapist, whatever it takes to learn. But then, so the questions I might ask are, you know, wanna find out more about the child disability and like just how it presents. Like how does it present in the, in the classroom or how does this, what does this look like? I mean, you’re trying to autism, I mean, so what does that look like? Does it look like um they have having meltdowns? Are they having difficulty making friendships? Are they? You know, it’s just some kids, I’m extreme. Like, some kids are throwing things, you know, like that’s a very different. That’s a very different school fit. We’re going to need for a child who has, you know, having regulation issues and is, you know, kind of Externalizing their behaviors versus if they’re internalizing the behavior, you know, they’re internalizing it and a lot of times having that anxiety and depression. I mean that’s also equally difficult. I mean neither is positive, but it’s still doing a different fit like some because I have to also be realistic about schools, like I, you know, cause I talked to admissions directors and I know the schools that will be open to kids that are more Externalizing behaviors and I have to be really aware of that and other ones that can support a child that, that are internalizing um issues and can support an emotional level. So I have to just be really, um careful and understand like how things are presenting um, other things are, you know, you wouldn’t be surprised as I start going along in my work, I found that every family is just so different and I really look at it holistically for the whole family. I mean clearly the child is most important, but I really feel like this has to work for everybody and
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:19:38): yeah,
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:19:39): so I have to like, you know, I try to pull out information from parents like and try to get as much information as possible. Like, you know, their, their values. Like when I mentioned like social, social justice, if that’s something that’s important to them to their to their family or or they want or that’s really important that there’s green space that there’s a lot of, you know, nature or if it’s important that um, you know, like, yeah, some political views or, or even things like I found out for one child, like I didn’t find out till later in the process that the child gets carsick, like severe car sickness, so I can’t send this child far away. Like, yeah,
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:20:19): proximity is gonna be a huge factor.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:20:22): Yeah. So just really, really details about each family. I mean, I think it’s, I find that very interesting in my work because everyone is so different and I really, I really try to, I’m not, I’m not judgmental, I just want to hear and I ask a lot of questions and,
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:20:38): and it matters. I mean, I love, and that’s the thing, like when you take the whole family, I mean, I say the same thing when you have the right educational environment for the child with the right supports. It makes such a huge difference in the whole family. Yes. No, because the child more relaxed during the school day, you can come home more relaxed. They’re not, you know, in that intense feeling like I, I put it to some families, like think of a work day for us. Like if I’m in court all day for eight hours or you know, in some intense thing for eight hours, I come home and I can’t handle it. You know, like, I need to go have a glass of wine, I need to go watch the show. I need to unwind and our kids don’t always have the tools of what to unwind and they come home and it’s like, no, you gotta do homework or you gotta go play baseball and you gotta go do this and it’s, you know, knowing what’s important to the families is so important to getting in the right environment.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:21:40): Also, I would say like because I do help families um look home with home schooling with a lot of times we consider home schooling for these kids. I mean we may or may not go there, but something, you know, I definitely wanna look at like parent work schedules, what their openness is to, it usually have to explain a little more about what homeschooling is. People don’t really get it, but but that’s definitely a clearly a whole whole family, let’s talk about
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:22:03): that a little because I I have definitely recommended homeschooling for some clients because just if financially private school is not appropriate. And unfortunately as much as public schools are supposed to have the continuum of services, there is definitely a gap. What does home school look like? Like how do you help families find that home school might be the right.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:22:27): Right. So, I mean, yeah, it depends on the unique, unique situation and unique, you know, something like, I will say that there a lot of like really like highly highly gifted students like will um have these learning differences, these disabilities will home school at some point or another. I don’t know what the percentage is, but it’s like, it’s like the percentage is kind of high, I don’t know what the stats, but you know, because they just don’t fit in the box. So um if they’re really, really gifted and have other challenges, you know, it just, I I would like them like families to consider it because it just might be the only thing that might work for a period of time. Usually those families are not like career homeschoolers and some of them are, you know, some like enjoy it and they might want to continue, but at least for like a short time, a lot of families do end up sometimes need to home school, but in terms of like putting together a program, like I really, I will help them, I want to make a schedule that works for the whole family. Um you know, depending on the parents’ work schedules and the the rhythms of the child and the rhythms of everyone in the household and what’s gonna work and then finding curriculum and then finding social opportunities. Um I hope, you know, I do a lot of….
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:23:42): you help with all of that.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:23:43): Yeah, but together a whole plan, like they might take some online classes, they might take, go to coop. Um yeah, I helped them put together a whole plan, so it’ll work.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:23:54): That’s awesome because I think, I know with homeschooling especially with when the pandemic hit and everything shut down and those were a lot of calls I got for neurodiverse Children and sitting there in front of a computer all day is not going to work. Um and what home school would look like. I wish I had known you two years ago because that I mean it was a hot topic that finding the right thing and I know a lot of families that once they went work virtual with work they decided to homeschool their Children and they just like rented and bought an RV and just travel.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:24:36): Love that.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:24:37): Yeah. I was like uh unfortunately my husband’s cannot do that virtual
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:24:44): I think that’s so cool, they call it road schoolers.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:24:46): right. I mean, it makes sense. How do you learn about the Grand Canyon? You know actually doing the Grand Canyon.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:24:55): You can learn a lot that way it’s super interesting. We’ve we’ve never done road schooling but I met some road schoolers and I think it’s super interesting concept and it seems like spending a few months or a year and people do it.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:25:10): Yeah definitely. I don’t know if I could handle even with my teaching background. I don’t know if I can handle 24/7.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:25:15): Yeah
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:25:18): maybe if I didn’t have to but then I couldn’t help as many families. So I don’t know if I want to do that.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:25:23): I don’t recommend it for everybody but I I do like to usually at some point not everybody but at some point I might bring it up. So I I would say I don’t, I’m not helping that many people with actual homeschooling but it’s something because people, it’s not like the most popular choice usually, but it’s something that we always discuss especially if a student is being dug counseled out basically expelled or you know from their school um something we want to consider that just kind of brings anxiety level down. It might be just super temporary um or just something and also just brings anxiety level down. Like if we’re looking at private schools and we’re not sure is this child going to be admitted or you know, like okay, don’t you know, I always feel like it’s a good backup plan that we can always fall back on this and I do feel like just the idea of that and and if they know that there’s someone there that can help them. That it seems to bring, I feel like it brings anxiety down for parents.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:26:20): I agree. I think I think knowing there’s other options, is such a huge thing because you know, it’s I know with a lot of the families that I’ve worked with and even when I was a teacher it’s like, well the school says this is your option and there are no other options and you feel trapped and then what and then just knowing like, oh I didn’t consider that, you know, and you know, could we make that work and I’m sure you talk through of like this is how you could make it work even if you’re a two income family, you know, these are things to consider,
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:26:55): right? No, I agree. I think I I love I love school options and generalizing it. There’s just it’s yeah, it’s very freeing to know that there are options. And even for pride you were mentioning before about not everyone can afford a private school, which is true. I mean I’m not gonna lies everyone can, but you know, if you apply early, there’s financial aid, there’s different types of schools that have different, you know, some expenses, some have, you know very, you know have a lot of the large financial aid package and some don’t so it really varies,
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:27:28): right? No, I’ve seen that and I know um you know, people always say if it… you find a way, if it if if it’s what’s needed, you find a way um which I know a lot of people are like, oh well that’s easy for you to say, but you don’t know my life and, and and I get it. But you know, I know somebody that I went to law school with wound up with law school free because she went and got a job as a security guard on campus. You know, like if you want it bad enough, she used to get teased by, you know, a lot of the law students which is crazy, but you know a lot of like really work here and she’s like, yeah and how much debt are you gonna have when you get out and how much will I have?
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:28:07): You know, not everyone can say that, but I would say a lot of people like, you know, like you said like kind of there’s a will, there’s a way, yeah, at one point, I mean I’ll be frank with, you know, I was a homeschool parent before I, you know, I used to be a teacher, a long time teacher, but I was homeschooling my my Children for a number of years kind of, you know, kind of what we talked about school wasn’t the right fit at that time. And so we were a one income family and um I wanted my son to start in public school and so we did hire an expensive advocate. Um, you know, we wanted the best, you know, so we kind of wanted to, you know, we, we, but I, we didn’t pay for it. My mother paid for it. I was just, you know, I’m just saying like you find a way, you know, I, I needed that, I needed help, I needed help to get my son back into uh put into public school and that was the only way I felt that I can make it would work. So
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:29:02): yeah, definitely. I mean, and that’s, you know, you find a way and you do what you need to do um which is hard and I get frustrated because when schools, especially the public schools aren’t doing what they’re supposed to be doing it can be so challenging. Um And that’s why I do these shows. I have my Youtube channel and I try to put information out there for families. That’s all free content. Um you know on my YouTube channel Shefter Law P. A. Um Facebook like everything that it’s just there for families to go and educate themselves. Um Because that’s yeah you know the parent with the knowledge walking into an IEP. Meeting, it’s so much better like just knowing what to expect. Um And that being said like it’s still I’m in a facebook group with attorneys with Children with disabilities. And somebody made a comment one time about why they get so upset and how hard it is to walk into an I. E. P. Meeting and I was like um I do this for a living and I support families and it’s still hard going to my daughters I. E. P. meeting because it’s emotional. It’s hard.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:30:19): Exactly. It is very emotional. Um Sometimes I just wish the whole process was just run by lawyers completely because you got your people and these people that you know your that are supporting your child and you know you have you need to have a good relationship with them. These are people taking care of your child but you might be disagreeing on what they need and that is just stressful in itself. So
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:30:41): yeah and what I find, I mean from my teaching days, I remember thinking that we were following the law and doing what we were supposed to be doing. Um and then once I went to law school and actually read the law was like that wasn’t quite it and I find it’s not the teachers, it’s rarely the teachers that are disagreeing with the parents. Most of the time I see agreement there. The problem is the higher ups sometimes put pressure on people who are providing,
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:31:16): keep gatekeepers for the resources, there’s pressure coming down downward. Yeah. Actually, I mean I do attend IEP meetings as well And yeah sometimes I found um that if you just actually state the problem like like okay if this happens, this child may be expelled. Like just put like or if this if this if this happens then um I don’t know like some something, I mean that’s kind of extreme spell but like you know like this child will not be if you know if this team does not agree with this placement, this child will not be considered for this placement. They’re like like they’re like oh yeah I watched it unfold and I see where this is going. I’m like panicking like okay. And then I put it out there as a as a reality for for this unsuspecting teachers and staff and they’re just like oh no no no no we recommend that placement. I’m like what you just said leading up there didn’t. But they changed their tune and they’re like oh no we don’t want to expel this child, they don’t really get it like what’s happening.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:32:19): Yeah and that’s I mean I’ve had times that we’ve had discussions like there was one with extended school year and I remember and you know they’re going through the checklist and it was a child with a learning disability and they’re like well doesn’t qualify for ESY. I’m like oh wait a minute why not? And they’re like well because it’s not a critical life skill, I’m like um reading is not a critical life skill, that’s not a critical life skill. And all of a sudden they’re all like oh. Because as a teacher we were always what, you know um that oh it’s for more severe kids for extended school year and that’s not what it is. So I got over that hurdle and they’re like well there’s no regression, I’m like no no no the teacher said over winter break, there was regression and then they’re like okay so they qualify for yes you said it you know E. S. Y. No but when they were talking about what happened in the reality of what they saw, it was 100% yes extended school year. They qualify. Yeah extended school year is a whole another thing on appropriateness which I’ve done a presentation which actually people can download on my website, an extended school were because extended school year is not limited to the summer. There’s 3-4 weeks that the school system provides. That’s not what extended school year is.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:33:57): It doesn’t have to be in that building or it could be a lot of different things
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:34:01): exactly. As long as you find it appropriate. Um, I feel like we could talk all day on this because we’re just so, and it’s funny because people are like, well wait a minute, doesn’t she do what you do? And I’m like, no, she does it. And that’s the thing. It’s like, yes, with the advocate. It might overlap a little bit, but it’s not the same. It’s more um, I can see how we complement each other and how referring clients, you know, because as we know, schools, They’ll pay attention to advocates to a point. But there comes a point that sometimes an attorney is necessary.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:34:38): Absolutely. 100%. Yeah. You have a lot more training, you know, than an advocate. You know, I mean, I went through a program that was a good program and I learned a lot, but I will always defer to an attorney if needed because I question so,
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:34:53): and I always defer to you. I I believe I said clients to you of like when they’re looking at a school, I’m like, yeah, I can recommend what I’ve heard. But you truly know the details of the schools and can get in there and find the right match because, you know, even private schools might not be the right match and knowing, you know, knowing which schools are better to to support our two week kids and support our neural diverse kids is so important for parents not to waste time trying to get into a school that might not be appropriate.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:35:26): Right? I see that all the time, like, oh, we’ve applied to all these, you know, these four schools and we were rejected. I’m like, okay, well, I’m not surprised because that’s not the right fit for your child. Like, you know what I know. And so yeah, well, thank you for thinking it was valuable. I think what you do is valuable too. And so yeah, I’m glad we
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:35:44): yeah, I love that. You say that is that coming to you saves a lot of time, because that’s what I say as well. Is that starting with having support earlier in the process makes things go easier. And, you know, people are like, oh, I don’t want to bring an attorney in that makes it adversarial. But no, it doesn’t, it doesn’t have to be adversarial. It just make sure that people are doing what they’re supposed to be doing.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:36:11): Exactly, yeah, clearly getting help early is important and could be very helpful and save a lot of stress, Stress-free IEP
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:36:20): Exactly,
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:36:22): Love your tagline, I think it’s perfect. Yes.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:36:26): Um, so how can people reach out to you, how can people connect your best places?
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:36:29): The best place is my website, um which is exceptionaleducationalsolutions.com very slowly cause I know it’s a lot of words
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:36:38): The link will definitely be in the show notes.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:36:40): Okay.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:36:42): Um so people can find you.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:36:44): I mean I’m I’m on Facebook, I’m on LinkedIn, I’m on, you know, Instagram, Twitter or whatever, but you can find me there. But the best best place to find, learn more about me and what I do and get connected my to find me is through my website. Thanks
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:36:58): Perfect. Thank you and thank you so much for joining me on my show and one of my first five people get us kicked off and I look forward to working with you in the future.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:37:11): Likewise, Frances, thanks so much for having me as a guest. I really appreciate it. It’s fun talking to you today.
Voice over (⏱ 00:37:17): You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEP™. With your host Frances Shefter. Remember you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through ShefterLaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments, and sharing the show with others through Youtube, LinkedIn, Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, and more.
Stress-Free IEP™ with Frances Shefter and Stephanie Frumkin (video podcast)
Stress-Free IEP™:
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
In this episode of Stress-Free IEP™:
Frances speaks with Stephanie Frumkin of Exceptional Educational Solutions. Stephanie specializes in helping bright and gifted children and teens with learning differences succeed in school.
Connect with and learn more from Stephanie Frumkin:
stephanie@exceptionaleducationalsolutions.com | https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephanie-frumkin-m-a-ed-614182/ | https://www.exceptionaleducationalsolutions.com/
Watch more episodes ofStress-Free IEP™:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCff0foIeCETrWbtsQSDwckQ
Connect and learn more from your host, Frances Shefter:
shefterlaw.com/#contact-me
Shefterlaw.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/francesshefter/
Read the full transcription of this episode:
Voiceover (⏱ 00:00:02): Welcome to Stress-Free IEP™. You do not need to do it all alone with your host Francis Schefter principle of Schefter law. She streams a show live on facebook on the last Tuesday of every month at noon Eastern. Get more details and catch prior episodes at www.Shefterlaw.com. The Stress-Free IEP™ video podcast is also posted on Youtube and linkedin and you can listen to episodes through apple podcasts, Spotify, google podcasts, stitcher and more. Now here’s the host of Stress-Free IEP™ Frances Shefter.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:00:46): Hi welcome everyone. I am so excited to have my next guest on our show, Stephanie Frumkin. I’ve been wanting to have Stephanie on for a while. I know it’s our third episode. I’m excited. She’s one of our top five. Stephanie, please introduce yourself and let everybody know what you do.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:01:05): Yeah thank you so much Frances. I’m very excited to be on. I appreciate you inviting me as a guest. Um I’ve been watching your videos and so I’m excited to actually be on with you. So a little bit about myself. So I’m an educational consultant. I’m the founder and CEO of exceptional educational solutions. So they said I’m an educational consultant but my focus really is bright and gifted students um in K to 12 with learning differences. So I work with a lot of twice exceptional families with kids that are twice exceptional who are you know very you know very smart, you know high Q. And also have some challenges going on for like for example ADHD, Autism, anxiety, specific specific learning disabilities such as dyslexia, dysgraphia, language disorders, you name it. Um These kids are out of the box and they tend to be kind of complex because they’ve got the highs, they’ve got a lot of strength a lot going for them. And they also have some of the challenges so they need support. So it’s kind of that mix. So they’re super complex kiddos and I really enjoy it. I love it. It’s very rewarding
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:02:9): and it’s so awesome that you do that because it’s I know it’s the new category the 2E. But so many of our children don’t fit in the box that IDEA forces us to label them and code them and so forth. And our 2E kids especially go undiagnosed or unrecognized or um you know just not correct placements because they’re so complex. So what do you look at? Like when you’re looking at the families and talking to the families about different schools, what are some of the things like questions you might ask families to help guide them in the right direction?
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:02:47): Right? So um so just a little bit more background. I do help parents figure out the best option for them. So I’m looking we’re looking at public school, we’re looking at private school, we’re looking at home school online school, some kind of hybrid approach. So we’ve got a lot of options at our fingertips. So I try to customize it to each individual family like whatever educational option is best for them. But to answer your question about and what do I ask them I guess I start with a really the the biggest part of my process is really getting to know the individual child who they are. You know that goes along with all their strengths and all their challenges and just trying to really get to know who they are. And I do that in a lot of ways by I um you know I read their reports they have usually have multiple psychological reports but whatever I can do to find out more about the child I have a really um extensive interview with the parents. I meet the child sometimes I do a classroom observation um talk to teachers, talk to um therapist. Just again just really really get to know the child and from that point um you know I’m able to sort of figure out what what might make sense and we work together in a process to get there.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:04:02): I love hearing that. I mean there’s definitely times that I’ve had clients come to me because of placement issues in Montgomery County or D. C. Um and they are not agreeing with the school and what’s the best and unfortunately the law doesn’t provide for the best education for our Children but good enough education. And there have definitely been times where I’ve advised parents that if private school is an option it might be the better route to go
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:04:33): I love having you as a resource because as much as I know as public schools and some of the private schools I don’t always know as well how to fit a family you know how to make it work um for the student of what’s best I hear what. But I’m assuming you’re in the schools more and know the profile of all the different schools. Is that correct?
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:04:54): Right. Yes. No I loved it. One of my favorite parts of my job is going out and visiting schools which pandemic made it difficult to get out there. But I love when I can visit schools and see because each school is so unique and I do sort of the D. C. Metro area like yourself. Um And yeah there’s just there’s so many schools in this area so I find that very exciting because we have like Montessori schools, we have parochial schools, we have um schools that you know a democratic school. We have just so many different types of schools in the area. It’s just a project based learning. I mean there’s just so many really cool um different types of schools out there and then we have um we have homeschool co ops that have different flavors. There’s some that do like serve more of the gifted population and some that are just more, you know, like have a social justice value. There’s just so much out there. So I love, I love that that there’s so much variety of classes for their families to take this online. I mean there’s just, I love it. There’s so much, I’m just like, I’m all about options and what life does work best. So I mean, clearly I’m, you know, I’m also an advocate. I’m public school advocate and in a private school advocate, whatever. You know, I try to help the families however I can, but you’re right. It is a bit limiting if you’re only, I mean it’s definitely what you do is super valuable, but it, you know, it’s for the individual family. It could be limiting in what would be the actually the best, the best fit for them,
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:06:19): Right. And unfortunately sometimes finances is huge because I’m assuming the private schools are costly and there’s not getting the difference between private schools and non publics. I know I’ve done a video on that because a lot of people get confused like, well, can’t we get, you know, the county to pay for our private school? It’s like, well,
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:06:43): no, a
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:06:44): non public school, which is a special ed school, which are very different. Can you go into a little bit of the differences that you see with the private and non publics.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:06:54): Well, sure what um, I mean, my understanding of non publics is generally they’re following. Um They’re following IEPs. There they have to have certain standards they have to follow that are based on the state standards. So they have you know your parents with us. But um you know they have to meet their child’s IEP. There’s a lot more flexibility in a private school. I mean they may it may or may not serve a child but you know clearly the individual what will work best. But I mean some private schools are able to serve needs not following exactly. IEP mean usually they depends on doing on the type of school. I mean some of them do offer a lot of support and have therapies involved. But some of them you know some kids like that in a public school setting where they actually they need an IEP and they need a lot of support. Just if they have like alternative type environment. They might not need a lot of support. They could just have a little plan perhaps or if it’s very small and everyone knows everybody and the teachers are warm and loving and have a pause relationship. I mean a lot of students they can do really well with that. So they wouldn’t might not need all the rigorous supports that they might need in a non public school or public school. I mean some kids need that clearly and
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:08:06): right now it’s definitely I mean the the non public it’s all special education students. So the profile is very different of what the child what your child is and for our two E kids I know can be challenging because although the non publics are on the regular curriculum, high school, you know what they’re supposed to be on the regular education curriculum that they’re following, it can be a little bit more challenging and sometimes are two e kids because their intellect is so high, they tend to get bored. And I know from my classroom days, a bored child is just as bad, just has just as difficult of a time as a child that’s lost because that’s when the behaviors come out.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:08:49): Yes, exactly. I wish schools would have a better understanding of that and when they’re determining like this child, you know, as eligible for an IEP. You know, a lot of times dismiss them because their grades are good. Well you know, they test well. I mean these are these two kids, they, yeah, they tend to test very well. At the very least some of the some do do really well with their grades, some don’t, some have perfectionist tendencies and a lot of anxiety. So even though their grades are good, that might not actually be a good sign. Some of them have straight A’s and um actually might be showing their like severe anxiety. Um I’ve
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:9:26): seen that and I’ve seen a lot that schools say, well they’re, you know, they’re so smart and they’re doing it all it’s all behavior that they’re not doing turning in their homework or you know um Which is our executive functioning issues with our autism spectrum Children or even our A. D. H. D. Children. And so they need that support. And schools are like no they have a high I. Q. Um No I’ve seen that a lot and have to I fight the schools often on that
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:9:55): um get
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:9:56): the right environment. Um I know class size is huge though with the private schools,
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:10:02): the private schools. Um No
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:10:07): huge is in that they’re smaller. Class size is a huge factor that you have to that didn’t come out right.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:10:14): Yeah. I mean I will say that that would be a benefit to the a lot of the private schools that there’s a lot of them have a very small classes. Or it could be a very small environment where some of that anxiety will just dissipate. And I mentioned anxiety a lot I think because of the pandemic and just there’s so much anxiety but also I do believe that kids who are not getting their their needs met in school in public school. They are they I mean there’s I I’m finding that there’s this um autism anxiety I find autism, ADHD, And anxiety they all go together. Um Even or dyslexia anxiety ptsd anxiety. There’s always like the anxiety piece and sometimes with depression and self esteem is really a big concern because if they’re not getting their needs in school met then they cycle and um they feel badly about themselves. They can’t meet the expectations of what their you know what teachers expect from them. And some of them who um mask their disability is very well. They’re not getting served well. So a private school that’s smaller could actually
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:11:18): And I say that a lot I 100% agree with you with anxiety. It’s it’s often because the one of the challenges or um with our two week kids is that they’re bright enough to know that they’re different and that is such a hard place to be because unfortunately the way our society is we don’t accept different as much as we can.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:11:48): Right? Right. And even the whole IEP Model is just medical model, the diagnosis with you know, rather than like neuro diversity. The diversity movement, it’s very positive and so people are different people think differently. Let’s accept people that are different and schools are you know are just not set up that way. I think currently.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:12:9): Right, and I know one of the issues I’ve had with eligibility is that everybody in the room at an I. E. P. Table agrees that the child needs some extra supports. But then when you go down the eligibility checklist, they don’t fit in this box. They don’t fit in that box. They don’t fit in this box. Oh well they don’t qualify we can’t give them supports. And it’s just so frustrating because if a kid needs supports, we should be able to put supports in place. Yeah, but that’s a whole other discussion of how
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:12:43): I agree completely. It’s fairly hard and it seems some, I don’t know less staffing shortages. I don’t know what seems to be even harder to get eligibility these days.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:12:55): I agree. It’s challenging because I see also the problems that a lot of schools, I don’t know if you’re seeing this as well. Is that a lot of schools we’ve said if the child succeeding, they don’t need an IEP. But they don’t factor in all of this outside things that the parents tend to do. The parents hire the tutors and the parents have the executive functioning coach and all the things that the school should be doing the parents are providing.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:13:25): Exactly because I mean parents like you can’t watch your child fail, you’re not willing. You know, that’s like I think that’s the hard thing in public, you know that Children are sort of expected to fail in order to get support. And as parents, you know, we try not to let our kids fail. Like you said, like if we can afford it, we will hire tutors and therapist and then right then it looks like they’re doing okay. But yeah
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:13:51): and the good news on that, the law is clear about that, that we do not have to let your child fail in order to prove they need services. Um, and I’ve had a couple of IEP meetings where I’ve been able to go in and say, okay, well the child is doing so well because mom, private tutor dad, you know, whoever at home is giving all of the support and teaching all of the things and now there’s issues at home. Whereas if we take those factors and put the supports in the school where it should be, it just makes a happier family and a well rounded child and the child’s happier because then they can not have to be on all of the time.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:14:31): Exactly. That’s great. That’s great. You’re healthy parents that way. It’s really important. Exactly.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:14:39): And I mean it’s, it’s all, I mean, I say it all the time, it’s all about the kids and it’s focused on the kids. Um, I love hearing that you go in and get to know the child. Um, because while I’ll do like the paper side and get to know the child in the interview with the parents and something and it’s a little bit more limited when we’re going in the public school, but you get to go in and really get to know the child and match them with a good school. Um, So what are some of the questions you might ask parents to help them because I know you’ve said sometimes parents come to you thinking they’re gonna go one way and then it totally you know it’s another way. Yes. What are the questions you asked to get them there.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:15:24): So I’ll talk a little bit about the first part of what you just said because I think it’s really interesting kind of very interesting in my work because because as I said I work with some of these complex profiles and parents. They just say oh like I think I want I want you to help me find a private school for my child or I want you help me with my child IEP. Or I want you to help me home school. I don’t know whatever it is. There’s a lot of times they’ll come in, they’ll come to me and and but then when once I dive in I find that once I start I read the paperwork, I talk to the child and talk to the family a lot of times we’ll go in multiple directions and that’s like actually the crux of my work really is. It’s just being there for the family and getting all the information and guiding them and sort of this journey that and to you know, but I always try to remind my parents it’s a process, we will get there like like take several months but just engage with me in the process and um I definitely have a pretty good intuition after like gathering a lot of information. I kind of have a sense like where I think this child should be. And sometimes it takes a little time to get the parents on board with that. I have to sort of help them see or might try a few things and you know I might ask them to go visit some a few schools or consider this and sometimes it takes a little time. But and then sometimes things happen like in the middle of our process like the child of a. Now they’re they’re in a private school and now they’ve um started getting counseled out of their private school and now we have to look at something for the intermediate placement and and long term. So you know it’s just a little bit you know it’s a little a little crazy. But I I mean I love it it’s super rewarding but
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:17:00): it’s so great that you’re there and available for the parents because I mean it’s hard you know my daughter, I’ve always open about it. My daughter has an IEP. And I remember going and the mom guilt because this is what I do for a living. I’m a former teacher, I’m a former special ed teacher. I was my child you know and then not always knowing what’s right.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:17:20): Yeah I can relate to that because I feel like also similar similar situation here and it’s really different when it’s your own child. And actually that’s how I got into this work because I had a really hard time as a parent trying to figure out the best educational options for my child. We went a lot of different directions. So I feel like I want to offer that to other parents, but I do want to, I want to ask you a question that you asked me. Like, what do we like, what do I ask them? So, I mean, some of the things that I will, you know, I want to uncover for sure. So it’s a process which is like reading paperwork, interviewing the child, observing the child, talking to parents, whatever, you know, whoever talking to a therapist, whatever it takes to learn. But then, so the questions I might ask are, you know, wanna find out more about the child disability and like just how it presents. Like how does it present in the, in the classroom or how does this, what does this look like? I mean, you’re trying to autism, I mean, so what does that look like? Does it look like um they have having meltdowns? Are they having difficulty making friendships? Are they? You know, it’s just some kids, I’m extreme. Like, some kids are throwing things, you know, like that’s a very different. That’s a very different school fit. We’re going to need for a child who has, you know, having regulation issues and is, you know, kind of Externalizing their behaviors versus if they’re internalizing the behavior, you know, they’re internalizing it and a lot of times having that anxiety and depression. I mean that’s also equally difficult. I mean neither is positive, but it’s still doing a different fit like some because I have to also be realistic about schools, like I, you know, cause I talked to admissions directors and I know the schools that will be open to kids that are more Externalizing behaviors and I have to be really aware of that and other ones that can support a child that, that are internalizing um issues and can support an emotional level. So I have to just be really, um careful and understand like how things are presenting um, other things are, you know, you wouldn’t be surprised as I start going along in my work, I found that every family is just so different and I really look at it holistically for the whole family. I mean clearly the child is most important, but I really feel like this has to work for everybody and
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:19:38): yeah,
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:19:39): so I have to like, you know, I try to pull out information from parents like and try to get as much information as possible. Like, you know, their, their values. Like when I mentioned like social, social justice, if that’s something that’s important to them to their to their family or or they want or that’s really important that there’s green space that there’s a lot of, you know, nature or if it’s important that um, you know, like, yeah, some political views or, or even things like I found out for one child, like I didn’t find out till later in the process that the child gets carsick, like severe car sickness, so I can’t send this child far away. Like, yeah,
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:20:19): proximity is gonna be a huge factor.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:20:22): Yeah. So just really, really details about each family. I mean, I think it’s, I find that very interesting in my work because everyone is so different and I really, I really try to, I’m not, I’m not judgmental, I just want to hear and I ask a lot of questions and,
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:20:38): and it matters. I mean, I love, and that’s the thing, like when you take the whole family, I mean, I say the same thing when you have the right educational environment for the child with the right supports. It makes such a huge difference in the whole family. Yes. No, because the child more relaxed during the school day, you can come home more relaxed. They’re not, you know, in that intense feeling like I, I put it to some families, like think of a work day for us. Like if I’m in court all day for eight hours or you know, in some intense thing for eight hours, I come home and I can’t handle it. You know, like, I need to go have a glass of wine, I need to go watch the show. I need to unwind and our kids don’t always have the tools of what to unwind and they come home and it’s like, no, you gotta do homework or you gotta go play baseball and you gotta go do this and it’s, you know, knowing what’s important to the families is so important to getting in the right environment.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:21:40): Also, I would say like because I do help families um look home with home schooling with a lot of times we consider home schooling for these kids. I mean we may or may not go there, but something, you know, I definitely wanna look at like parent work schedules, what their openness is to, it usually have to explain a little more about what homeschooling is. People don’t really get it, but but that’s definitely a clearly a whole whole family, let’s talk about
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:22:03): that a little because I I have definitely recommended homeschooling for some clients because just if financially private school is not appropriate. And unfortunately as much as public schools are supposed to have the continuum of services, there is definitely a gap. What does home school look like? Like how do you help families find that home school might be the right.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:22:27): Right. So, I mean, yeah, it depends on the unique, unique situation and unique, you know, something like, I will say that there a lot of like really like highly highly gifted students like will um have these learning differences, these disabilities will home school at some point or another. I don’t know what the percentage is, but it’s like, it’s like the percentage is kind of high, I don’t know what the stats, but you know, because they just don’t fit in the box. So um if they’re really, really gifted and have other challenges, you know, it just, I I would like them like families to consider it because it just might be the only thing that might work for a period of time. Usually those families are not like career homeschoolers and some of them are, you know, some like enjoy it and they might want to continue, but at least for like a short time, a lot of families do end up sometimes need to home school, but in terms of like putting together a program, like I really, I will help them, I want to make a schedule that works for the whole family. Um you know, depending on the parents’ work schedules and the the rhythms of the child and the rhythms of everyone in the household and what’s gonna work and then finding curriculum and then finding social opportunities. Um I hope, you know, I do a lot of….
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:23:42): you help with all of that.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:23:43): Yeah, but together a whole plan, like they might take some online classes, they might take, go to coop. Um yeah, I helped them put together a whole plan, so it’ll work.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:23:54): That’s awesome because I think, I know with homeschooling especially with when the pandemic hit and everything shut down and those were a lot of calls I got for neurodiverse Children and sitting there in front of a computer all day is not going to work. Um and what home school would look like. I wish I had known you two years ago because that I mean it was a hot topic that finding the right thing and I know a lot of families that once they went work virtual with work they decided to homeschool their Children and they just like rented and bought an RV and just travel.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:24:36): Love that.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:24:37): Yeah. I was like uh unfortunately my husband’s cannot do that virtual
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:24:44): I think that’s so cool, they call it road schoolers.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:24:46): right. I mean, it makes sense. How do you learn about the Grand Canyon? You know actually doing the Grand Canyon.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:24:55): You can learn a lot that way it’s super interesting. We’ve we’ve never done road schooling but I met some road schoolers and I think it’s super interesting concept and it seems like spending a few months or a year and people do it.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:25:10): Yeah definitely. I don’t know if I could handle even with my teaching background. I don’t know if I can handle 24/7.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:25:15): Yeah
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:25:18): maybe if I didn’t have to but then I couldn’t help as many families. So I don’t know if I want to do that.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:25:23): I don’t recommend it for everybody but I I do like to usually at some point not everybody but at some point I might bring it up. So I I would say I don’t, I’m not helping that many people with actual homeschooling but it’s something because people, it’s not like the most popular choice usually, but it’s something that we always discuss especially if a student is being dug counseled out basically expelled or you know from their school um something we want to consider that just kind of brings anxiety level down. It might be just super temporary um or just something and also just brings anxiety level down. Like if we’re looking at private schools and we’re not sure is this child going to be admitted or you know, like okay, don’t you know, I always feel like it’s a good backup plan that we can always fall back on this and I do feel like just the idea of that and and if they know that there’s someone there that can help them. That it seems to bring, I feel like it brings anxiety down for parents.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:26:20): I agree. I think I think knowing there’s other options, is such a huge thing because you know, it’s I know with a lot of the families that I’ve worked with and even when I was a teacher it’s like, well the school says this is your option and there are no other options and you feel trapped and then what and then just knowing like, oh I didn’t consider that, you know, and you know, could we make that work and I’m sure you talk through of like this is how you could make it work even if you’re a two income family, you know, these are things to consider,
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:26:55): right? No, I agree. I think I I love I love school options and generalizing it. There’s just it’s yeah, it’s very freeing to know that there are options. And even for pride you were mentioning before about not everyone can afford a private school, which is true. I mean I’m not gonna lies everyone can, but you know, if you apply early, there’s financial aid, there’s different types of schools that have different, you know, some expenses, some have, you know very, you know have a lot of the large financial aid package and some don’t so it really varies,
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:27:28): right? No, I’ve seen that and I know um you know, people always say if it… you find a way, if it if if it’s what’s needed, you find a way um which I know a lot of people are like, oh well that’s easy for you to say, but you don’t know my life and, and and I get it. But you know, I know somebody that I went to law school with wound up with law school free because she went and got a job as a security guard on campus. You know, like if you want it bad enough, she used to get teased by, you know, a lot of the law students which is crazy, but you know a lot of like really work here and she’s like, yeah and how much debt are you gonna have when you get out and how much will I have?
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:28:07): You know, not everyone can say that, but I would say a lot of people like, you know, like you said like kind of there’s a will, there’s a way, yeah, at one point, I mean I’ll be frank with, you know, I was a homeschool parent before I, you know, I used to be a teacher, a long time teacher, but I was homeschooling my my Children for a number of years kind of, you know, kind of what we talked about school wasn’t the right fit at that time. And so we were a one income family and um I wanted my son to start in public school and so we did hire an expensive advocate. Um, you know, we wanted the best, you know, so we kind of wanted to, you know, we, we, but I, we didn’t pay for it. My mother paid for it. I was just, you know, I’m just saying like you find a way, you know, I, I needed that, I needed help, I needed help to get my son back into uh put into public school and that was the only way I felt that I can make it would work. So
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:29:02): yeah, definitely. I mean, and that’s, you know, you find a way and you do what you need to do um which is hard and I get frustrated because when schools, especially the public schools aren’t doing what they’re supposed to be doing it can be so challenging. Um And that’s why I do these shows. I have my Youtube channel and I try to put information out there for families. That’s all free content. Um you know on my YouTube channel Shefter Law P. A. Um Facebook like everything that it’s just there for families to go and educate themselves. Um Because that’s yeah you know the parent with the knowledge walking into an IEP. Meeting, it’s so much better like just knowing what to expect. Um And that being said like it’s still I’m in a facebook group with attorneys with Children with disabilities. And somebody made a comment one time about why they get so upset and how hard it is to walk into an I. E. P. Meeting and I was like um I do this for a living and I support families and it’s still hard going to my daughters I. E. P. meeting because it’s emotional. It’s hard.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:30:19): Exactly. It is very emotional. Um Sometimes I just wish the whole process was just run by lawyers completely because you got your people and these people that you know your that are supporting your child and you know you have you need to have a good relationship with them. These are people taking care of your child but you might be disagreeing on what they need and that is just stressful in itself. So
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:30:41): yeah and what I find, I mean from my teaching days, I remember thinking that we were following the law and doing what we were supposed to be doing. Um and then once I went to law school and actually read the law was like that wasn’t quite it and I find it’s not the teachers, it’s rarely the teachers that are disagreeing with the parents. Most of the time I see agreement there. The problem is the higher ups sometimes put pressure on people who are providing,
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:31:16): keep gatekeepers for the resources, there’s pressure coming down downward. Yeah. Actually, I mean I do attend IEP meetings as well And yeah sometimes I found um that if you just actually state the problem like like okay if this happens, this child may be expelled. Like just put like or if this if this if this happens then um I don’t know like some something, I mean that’s kind of extreme spell but like you know like this child will not be if you know if this team does not agree with this placement, this child will not be considered for this placement. They’re like like they’re like oh yeah I watched it unfold and I see where this is going. I’m like panicking like okay. And then I put it out there as a as a reality for for this unsuspecting teachers and staff and they’re just like oh no no no no we recommend that placement. I’m like what you just said leading up there didn’t. But they changed their tune and they’re like oh no we don’t want to expel this child, they don’t really get it like what’s happening.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:32:19): Yeah and that’s I mean I’ve had times that we’ve had discussions like there was one with extended school year and I remember and you know they’re going through the checklist and it was a child with a learning disability and they’re like well doesn’t qualify for ESY. I’m like oh wait a minute why not? And they’re like well because it’s not a critical life skill, I’m like um reading is not a critical life skill, that’s not a critical life skill. And all of a sudden they’re all like oh. Because as a teacher we were always what, you know um that oh it’s for more severe kids for extended school year and that’s not what it is. So I got over that hurdle and they’re like well there’s no regression, I’m like no no no the teacher said over winter break, there was regression and then they’re like okay so they qualify for yes you said it you know E. S. Y. No but when they were talking about what happened in the reality of what they saw, it was 100% yes extended school year. They qualify. Yeah extended school year is a whole another thing on appropriateness which I’ve done a presentation which actually people can download on my website, an extended school were because extended school year is not limited to the summer. There’s 3-4 weeks that the school system provides. That’s not what extended school year is.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:33:57): It doesn’t have to be in that building or it could be a lot of different things
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:34:01): exactly. As long as you find it appropriate. Um, I feel like we could talk all day on this because we’re just so, and it’s funny because people are like, well wait a minute, doesn’t she do what you do? And I’m like, no, she does it. And that’s the thing. It’s like, yes, with the advocate. It might overlap a little bit, but it’s not the same. It’s more um, I can see how we complement each other and how referring clients, you know, because as we know, schools, They’ll pay attention to advocates to a point. But there comes a point that sometimes an attorney is necessary.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:34:38): Absolutely. 100%. Yeah. You have a lot more training, you know, than an advocate. You know, I mean, I went through a program that was a good program and I learned a lot, but I will always defer to an attorney if needed because I question so,
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:34:53): and I always defer to you. I I believe I said clients to you of like when they’re looking at a school, I’m like, yeah, I can recommend what I’ve heard. But you truly know the details of the schools and can get in there and find the right match because, you know, even private schools might not be the right match and knowing, you know, knowing which schools are better to to support our two week kids and support our neural diverse kids is so important for parents not to waste time trying to get into a school that might not be appropriate.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:35:26): Right? I see that all the time, like, oh, we’ve applied to all these, you know, these four schools and we were rejected. I’m like, okay, well, I’m not surprised because that’s not the right fit for your child. Like, you know what I know. And so yeah, well, thank you for thinking it was valuable. I think what you do is valuable too. And so yeah, I’m glad we
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:35:44): yeah, I love that. You say that is that coming to you saves a lot of time, because that’s what I say as well. Is that starting with having support earlier in the process makes things go easier. And, you know, people are like, oh, I don’t want to bring an attorney in that makes it adversarial. But no, it doesn’t, it doesn’t have to be adversarial. It just make sure that people are doing what they’re supposed to be doing.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:36:11): Exactly, yeah, clearly getting help early is important and could be very helpful and save a lot of stress, Stress-free IEP
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:36:20): Exactly,
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:36:22): Love your tagline, I think it’s perfect. Yes.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:36:26): Um, so how can people reach out to you, how can people connect your best places?
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:36:29): The best place is my website, um which is exceptionaleducationalsolutions.com very slowly cause I know it’s a lot of words
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:36:38): The link will definitely be in the show notes.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:36:40): Okay.
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:36:42): Um so people can find you.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:36:44): I mean I’m I’m on Facebook, I’m on LinkedIn, I’m on, you know, Instagram, Twitter or whatever, but you can find me there. But the best best place to find, learn more about me and what I do and get connected my to find me is through my website. Thanks
Frances Shefter (⏱ 00:36:58): Perfect. Thank you and thank you so much for joining me on my show and one of my first five people get us kicked off and I look forward to working with you in the future.
Stephanie Frumkin (⏱ 00:37:11): Likewise, Frances, thanks so much for having me as a guest. I really appreciate it. It’s fun talking to you today.
Voice over (⏱ 00:37:17): You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEP™. With your host Frances Shefter. Remember you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through ShefterLaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments, and sharing the show with others through Youtube, LinkedIn, Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, and more.
Categories