In this episode of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter is joined by Dr. Ken Stefano, Clinical Psychologist and Owner of Kenneth Stefano & Associates, a socio-educational testing and consultation practice based in Rockville. Dr. Stefano specializes in the psychological assessment of children and adolescents, offering insights into their educational needs and supporting their learning development through tailored interventions.
Tune in to the episode to hear about:
The critical differences between school-based evaluations and private evaluations for educational needs.
The importance of a comprehensive understanding of a child’s learning profile to advocate effectively within the IEP process
Strategies for parents to navigate the educational system to secure the necessary support and accommodations for their children
The role of detailed and descriptive psychological reports in shaping educational outcomes and interventions
How parents can prepare for and contribute effectively to IEP meetings to ensure their child receives appropriate educational support
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP® experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
Voice-Over: Welcome to Stress-Free IEP®. You do not need to do it all alone with your host, Frances Shefter, principal of Shefter Law. You can get more details and catch prior episodes at www. Shefterlaw.com. The Stress-Free IEP® video podcast is also posted on YouTube and LinkedIn, and you can listen to episodes through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, Stitcher, and more. Now, here’s the host of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter.
Meet Dr. Ken Stefano
Frances Shefter: Hello everyone, and welcome to the show. Today’s special guest, Dr. Ken Stefano, is a clinical psychologist and owner of Kenneth Stefano Associates, where That is a socio educational testing and consultation practice in Rockville. And a fun fact that I don’t even know if Ken [00:01:00] remembers, but I met Ken, I want to say about a decade ago on a case when he did an evaluation for one of an educational decision makers client.
And then he had myself and the education as the education attorney and the educational decision maker come in and he reviewed the report with us. And that was the first time I had heard of somebody doing that. And I thought it was so amazing that he went through everything on the report so that we understood it all.
And then he also offered to review it with a child who was a teenager.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Um, I wish I remembered that. Thank you. Thank you for that.
Frances Shefter: But yeah, I just I remembered that and your name always stuck in my head because it was like I was so impressed with that, especially explaining to the child because these reports, you know, our kids need to understand them.
And as teenagers, um, what it says and what it says. how their brain works differently.
Understanding the IEP Process
Dr. Ken Stefano: Well, I think that this process, the IEP process [00:02:00] is overwhelming enough for a parent or parents. Um, but then, you know, The students themselves, they hear all this language thrown around, present levels of performance, IEP goals and, and services and, and they don’t know what, you know, what’s going on with them.
Why, you know, why do they need this extra support? And so I think that it’s, you know, really, um, essential for students to know about their learning profiles, their strengths and weaknesses so that they can better advocate for themselves and be better independent students than to not have to have to rely on their parents to always advocate for them.
Frances Shefter: But yeah, that is so, yeah, it’s so true. And then especially with our teenagers, I know, like I’ve said it before, I’m sure listeners have heard me say it, that the way I explain it is that your brain works differently. Uhhuh, . It’s not a disability, it’s not something [00:03:00] wrong with you. It doesn’t need to be fixed.
Your brain just works differently. And this is how your brain works.
Dr. Ken Stefano: I, I presented that, that, um, not everybody can swim as fast as Katie Ledecky. Right? Right. Your, you can’t read, write, sit, attend, as well as maybe, um, your best friend, but, you know, so I, that, that, that’s the way I describe it, because it, because they’re, yes, they’re not disabilities. I hate all of the labels. Um, uh, you know, the labels are essential, particularly for the IEP process, um, to have that label, which, you know, which is the gatekeeper to, um, to even start the process of the IEP. So,
Frances Shefter: yeah, I mean, I know the label. is what they use for 504 plans and IEPs, that disability. Although technically they don’t, legally, they don’t have to have a diagnosis.
The school can get the [00:04:00] information.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Correct.
Frances Shefter: But, um, obviously having a diagnosis is a little bit stronger.
School vs. Private Evaluations
Frances Shefter: Um, what do you think, like, I know we get questions a lot of like, Should I have the school evaluate or should I get a private evaluation? Like, what’s the difference for parents to understand the true process?
Dr. Ken Stefano: Well, and I had a, uh, a consultation recently with a family, um, where this came up, um, and Let me talk about this specific situation, and then I’ll expand that a little bit to talk about, you know, when and when to do what. So this is a youngster who’s been struggling, school’s been struggling, saying that he’s struggling with his academic progress for the last year, and the parents called to say the school is going to do an assessment of, to see if he has a learning disability, if he qualifies for an IEP.
But, um, we want our own opinion too. Like, okay, [00:05:00] well, um, uh, you know, You can’t do, uh, you know, both at the same time because some of the tests that are administered if you’re doing an evaluation, uh, cannot be re administered within a certain amount of time. What I advise this family, since the school system was the one who identified the problem and initiated the process, I, I recommended, go ahead and let the school system do their evaluations.
Then schedule a consult with me to review the evaluations to see if there’s any additional information that’s needed. And the reason for that is when the school system does an evaluation, not only might there be several disparate evaluations that don’t communicate with each other and don’t integrate with each other, But the school system, because of their demands and limited [00:06:00] resources, their goal is to, you know, do the minimal amount of testing that’s required to get the documentation.
And quite frankly, it’s not to the school system’s advantage to identify a problem, because then they have to use their resources to do something about it. So sometimes, um, a, a, a private evaluation. is going to be, uh, first of all, much more comprehensive. Um, for, um, example, when, um, the school system generally assesses academic achievement.
In addition to looking at the standardized testing scores and curriculum based, um, measures of progress, the school system will do an educational evaluation that will consist of a test called the Woodcock Johnson Test of Achievement. Most normally. Woodcock Johnson is a fine, um, test to hope [00:07:00] to, uh, to begin an, an educational evaluation.
It gets you some good information, but it doesn’t go in depth enough to tell you. not only to tell you what specific area of reading, writing or math is problematic, but it’s not sensitive enough to pick up all problems because it’s much more of a screening. So a private evaluation where the school based educational might be an hour Maybe 90 minutes if, if that private evaluation, the educational portion is about three to four hours, depending upon how many additional supplemental subtests that or supplemental measures that I give to be able to flesh out what the problem is.
Frances Shefter: You know, it’s interesting that you say that because I’ve said that all the time is that when the schools do it, the evaluation, they’re just also only focused on the educational. Oh, yes. Right impact and they have one [00:08:00] person do the academic and one person do the psychological And they go hand in hand And I know like when I got my daughters tested They were like, hmm.
They saw something that didn’t quite fit, right? So they dug deeper. Whereas when the school, when they’re looking at them individually, it’s not, it’s not comprehensive enough to know where you need to dig a little deeper, right?
Dr. Ken Stefano: Right. And absolutely.
The Importance of Comprehensive Reports
Dr. Ken Stefano: And not only dig deeper, but reports done by schools are generally very brief and they’re not very descriptive.
They report score. level performance. And, and that’s, that’s it. For me, sometimes getting an average score is not the most, um, uh, important aspect of that particular skill that’s being assessed. It’s how was that score achieved? Did [00:09:00] they, um, were they careless and missed a lot of early items? So they lost a lot of points.
Um, were they not confident in their responses? So they, Uh, said I don’t know or weren’t willing to take an academic risk. So without that analysis, sometimes when I get a school based report, I’m looking at the numbers and I’m like, well, that’s fine that they got an average score, but I don’t know what that means.
I don’t know how that, and so a private report, at least our reports for a psychoeducational evaluation, I write reports that are anywhere between 25 and 30 pages long. Right. Because you have to describe. What is going on?
Frances Shefter: Right. And the school’s educational assessments are usually three pages and the psychological Maybe seven or eight. I don’t think I’ve seen, I think I might’ve seen one like that was 13 or 14, but that’s because they, they put all the, yeah, yeah.
Frances Shefter: [00:10:00] The scores, which mean, you know, next to, well, which means next to nothing to most people. I know my absolute very first show was stress free cousin, Randy Ginsburg, who was a school based neuropsychologist and she explained the scores and able to break it down.
Um, very well. And then I know like what I’ve learned is that you want a sub scores because that’s where a lot of like dyslexia I know comes out because average their average dyslexic kids are usually very smart and they know how to, um, to mask.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Yeah. And
Frances Shefter: it’s not until you get down to the nitty gritty of those little sub scores that you see the difference.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Well, exactly.
ADHD and Dyslexia Insights
Dr. Ken Stefano: Uh, just speaking of dyslexia. Um, again, just doing a Woodcock Johnson, you would get a score that says decoding, um, is, is weak. But there are different aspects of decoding. Is [00:11:00] the problem more phonologically based? Um, you know, sound manipulation and decoding? Or is it more visually based in terms of visual memory for letter and word configurations?
And so you need to analyze that and sometimes pull out specific measures of phonological processing or the visual processing is called orthographic, um, processing in memory to see where the problem lies because my, uh, one of the things that I dislike About services in a lot of school systems is in addition to not doing remediation in a in a in a thorough and complete way, but they’re sort of doing it in the dark.
Which do I use Orton Gillingham? Do I use Linda Mood Bell? Do I use? phonographics, you need to know what type of dyslexia you’re [00:12:00] dealing with and just doing a one test is usually not enough to know that.
Frances Shefter: I’m so glad you said that because I know a lot of people, everybody says if they hear dyslexia they say Orton Gillingham.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Period.
Frances Shefter: But apparently it’s not right. There’s not always.
Dr. Ken Stefano: No.
Frances Shefter: Interesting. And so, um, going into that, going deeper, that’s, that just blew my mind. That’s my new thing. Like, like, that’s my one big thing I learned. That’s why I love doing my show is because I learn a lot.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Exactly.
Frances Shefter: Um, as a parent of both kids have dyslexia, so it makes a difference as well.
Um, but, um, yeah, interesting. So you, you were saying that you will review the school’s evaluations. Like what does that look like? How does that,
Dr. Ken Stefano: well, um, um, as I said before that, um, while I, I, I. Genuinely believe that [00:13:00] most educators have the student’s best interest, um, um, in the forefront. Um, there’s also, um, fiscal responsibilities and, and pressures in other areas. And so, um, oftentimes, as I said, when the school system does an evaluation, if it’s not comprehensive enough, there are signs or some yellow or red flags, but think, but nothing that rises to the level of indicating, uh, a substantially impactful, um, impact. Um, and so what I like to do is to, uh, first of all, um, see how comprehensive was this assessment?
Because as you said, certain Some psychologicals do, school based, do go into more detail, some educationals do, um, and I will review the evaluation to see, you know, if they came up with a diagnosis or came up with [00:14:00] areas of need, do I see that or do I don’t, or do, is there something in the data that I’m looking at that tells, that makes me want to improve?
explore a particular area more to to see because there’s, if there’s a problem, because, as you said, a lot of, for example, dyslexic kids are very bright and they’ve learned ways to compensate and to mask and hide their weaknesses. And so if Um, their skills are not pressed and they’re not stressed and not made to do things in different ways and multiple times.
They might, uh, sort of, uh, get by on a more abbreviated assessment.
Frances Shefter: Right. Yeah. And that’s what I’ve had before many times before that it didn’t show the dyslexia. [00:15:00] Um, and that where it came into the sub scores. That’s why I learned it because I had, I had a client and then it wasn’t the psychologist made a comment or reviewing everybody saying not not eligible.
The teacher was adamant. Um, everything not eligible. And the psychologist made a comment about the sub scores that it. Like, I think it was like between six and seven was one and a half standard deviations. And I’m like, wait a minute. So any scores of six would automatically be the discrepancy you need for eligibility.
She said, yes. I’m like spelling, reading fluency. And I forgot the third one. All of them were six. And she goes, Person’s up the kids eligible. Wow.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Yeah,
Frances Shefter: right. Yeah. And that was after six hours of meetings. We had three different meetings and it was just this fight, fight, fight. Like we knew it was there.
This fight, fight, fight. And it wasn’t like I knew to list like, listen, I was like, Whoa, wait a minute. And that one little piece, um, that was able to get us where we wanted to go.
Dr. Ken Stefano: I was at an [00:16:00] IEP meeting once. where I was advocating that the student should, um, get an IEP, not for dyslexia, but for a disorder of written expression, a written language learning disability.
And what, um, I believe the learning specialist or some school administrator said Was that the student couldn’t have a learning disability in written language because the school system did not have a standardized way of measuring writing achievement. So therefore, ergo, you can’t have a learning disability in it.
And before I could jump across the table, the school systems, uh, uh, attorney, um, jumped in and, and corrected, um, the person, but, uh, but, but yeah, and I, and I was at another meeting where. Um, the psychologist said at the beginning of the meeting before we talk about, um, these scores, I want you to make sure that it’s not always just percentiles and numbers.
[00:17:00] It’s, it’s absolute improvement, um, that we’re looking at. And, and he then presented data to show that over six in six months time, the students scores on a particular instrument, um, increased from, I’m just making this up 67 to, um, 85. So a big number increase. And so that showed significant progress until I pointed out to him that there’s a number increase.
Yes, but both of those scores are below the first percentile compared to people in the population. So there was a relative improvement, but they’re still functioning. less than 99 percent of their peers.
Tips for Parents and Final Thoughts
Dr. Ken Stefano: So I guess I say that to throw in, you know, part of this is talk about how to have a Stress-Free IEP® and how to, how to prepare, um, is to make [00:18:00] sure, um, you know, that, uh, that you do learn about, um, about your rights.
bring someone like you, um, to, um, a meeting, um, because, um, there is just, it’s just too complex and too much to know.
Frances Shefter: And I’m just thinking along the lines of if, you know, parents are out there and they want to do it on their end. I have parents all the time saying, well, I don’t want to be adversarial and bring an attorney.
And I’m like, I’m not the adversarial attorney. Usually I start off, you know, like I’m part of the team member. Um, you know, the team, let’s we work together and that’s how I’m bringing an attorney brings extra eyes and central office that knows a lot more. Um, and their attorneys that knows the law and can put things straight. But I’m thinking along the lines for those parents that going to an eligibility meeting that they can just bring the school documents to you and you can help point out and give them the language. to attempt on their own.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Yes. [00:19:00] I also, um, always make a recommendation. Um, uh, one of my parent recommendations, um, is for parents to check out rightslaw.com, you know, Peter Wright’s, um, organization in Northern Virginia. I just find that his books and his website are just fonts of information for parents about how to prepare themselves to, uh, to advocate for their children best.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, his, I use his site often. Um, and I went to his, one of his trainings. He has a one day training.
Oh, he does. He still does trainings. He does. He does them all virtual now, which is even better. Oh, that’s even better. I know. So, um, yeah, so he’s still doing the trainings. I think the next one, at least in Maryland is September. I want to say, because my new associate, your senior associate is gonna go to learn the basics.
Um, but yeah, I mean, I say that all the time for parents is is to educate yourself, [00:20:00] research, find the terminology. Um, you know, I often tell them also, Whether you have or you, well, I don’t want to say that always say, well, I was talking to an attorney, you know, because just saying that sometimes gets the school to change their mind about which way they’re going,
Dr. Ken Stefano: because that says,
Frances Shefter: oh, I might be bringing an attorney in and schools don’t want attorneys to come in generally.
Dr. Ken Stefano: No, they don’t. Um,
Frances Shefter: yeah.
Dr. Ken Stefano: And, and of course, I’m sure you found some, some specific schools within a school district or some school districts. are easier to work with than others.
Frances Shefter: Yes. And some attorneys within school districts are easier. And some
Dr. Ken Stefano: attorneys within, yes.
Frances Shefter: Exactly. And, and, you know, with, with doing this as long as I have, like I know which ones and I know how to communicate.
Um, and it’s always nice, like to have that conversation beforehand. Like we can’t predetermine, but attorneys can talk attorney to attorney of like, this is what we’re thinking. This is where we’re [00:21:00] going. And then it’s not like, it’s not the team predetermining anything. It’s just the attorneys talking to make the meeting a little bit more streamlined.
Um, because I hate when the schools won’t tell us what they’re thinking on disability code. I won’t tell us what they’re thinking about placement and services because they, at least in Montgomery County, they say it’s, it’s considered predetermination. And I’m like,
Dr. Ken Stefano: right. But on the other hand, how many times IEP meeting where before the meeting starts The school team is in the room with the door closed for several minutes, having the pre meeting to decide what they’re going to present.
So, you know, they
Frances Shefter: have, that’s not predetermination. It’s totally predetermination. And it’s so clear in some meetings on how, how predetermined it is because they’re not even listening or they only have, you know, a person from [00:22:00] one program there. know, I always make, like, I try to fight for my clients to be able to visit programs and they’re like, well, that’s predetermined.
I’m like, no, it’s not. It’s my clients gathering as much information as you all have as the school system to look at. Is the autism program appropriate? Is life skills appropriate? Is school community based learning appropriate? Like which program is appropriate? If my clients haven’t visited any of those schools, they’re relying on your information.
allow them to be fully informed and meaningfully participate.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Exactly. Exactly.
Frances Shefter: So, yeah, um, I love the idea of you. I’m just thinking it through of you reviewing things and giving your input of what you think, um, You know, disabilities and what points, right? Because you go, you go into deep detail and we’ll recommend what these you feel are primary or secondary.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Yes.
Frances Shefter: Um,
Dr. Ken Stefano: and to [00:23:00] follow up something from earlier, the, uh, an additional thing that you touched on that you get with a private evaluation is Um, in addition to classroom testing accommodations and recommended services and related services, uh, private evaluation should have specific recommendations for home in terms of how to support that student.
Um, you know, they’re reading their academics with their attention. Um, you know, the problem doesn’t end at three o’clock. It does for the school, and I get that that’s the only, you know, time period they have to, uh, worry about, but it doesn’t end for the parent.
Frances Shefter: Right, now that’s when a parent kicks up. And I think you have a book out there, um, For taking control of ADHD.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Yes. It’s called, yeah, it’s take control of, of ADHD. The ultimate guide for teens was written by myself [00:24:00] and my, I, I, I say late, um, partner, but she’s not deceased. It’s just, she retired and it’s no longer here. Ruth Spodak. And we really wrote it for, um, for teenagers to, um, demystify the diagnosis. And to, um, see that, um, they’re not alone. There is comfort in knowing that you’re not, you know, that we’re all in the same boat, that there’s other people in this boat with you, that you’re not going down this, uh, you know, this path, this, this river yourself. Um, and, um, I find that a lot of parents, uh, like it too because we, we wrote it in a very, Common everyday language way, trying not to use psycho jargon, which I also try not to use too much in my reports.
I’ve read some [00:25:00] psychological reports of specifically of looking at social, emotional and personality functioning, and they get done describing the Oedipal complex and this complex, and they’re using all this terminology. And I’m like, well, what does that mean? What is it, you know, functionally? How was this?
Um, kid impact. So it’s for parents also, but For parents also, but it really, it follows Um, six imaginary students of, uh, boys, girls, some with more executive functioning problems, some who are more hyperactive, some who are more just distractible, and it walks them through at each stage of identification. accommodations, treatment, and, and understanding.
Frances Shefter: Oh, that’s wonderful. And I’m sure that that’s really important for our, especially our older teens that are going off to college [00:26:00] because guess what? Mom and dad don’t drive the ship anymore. You’re 18 and you’re the one that has to go and advocate for your services and so forth.
Although I did have
Dr. Ken Stefano: one parent one time actually installed a landline telephone in their son’s dorm room so they could call him every morning to wake him up. Yes. Now that takes helicopter parenting and doing it, uh, you know, way too far. But, um, one of the, the, the, uh, I, one of the, I think, um, relatively unique things that my practice does also is after we do a feedback or interpretive conference with the parents to understand the report.
I never recommend that a student, um, read their psychoeducational evaluation. Um, it’s not written for them. It’s overwhelming enough for a parent to read a document that’s 25, 30 pages, uh, you know, about their, their child. Um, and [00:27:00] I also stress with parents that, um, you know, you didn’t pay me to go on about all of your child’s, um, Strengths and good qualities.
There are many qualities that your child has. You paid me to identify what’s the problem, describe it and then what’s the remedy. So therefore it’s 25, 30 pages on what’s not going well. So they need to, you know, understand that, that that’s not, The be all and end all of their child, uh, but for students, I’ll have, uh, I’ll meet with them, um, separately, uh, middle school and above, um, for a developmentally appropriate feedback session about what their learning style is, and what they do well, what they should emphasize, and then, you know, what are, what things are more challenging, um, for them.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, and that’s so important also, because it’s, it’s giving our kids the autonomy to be able to go in and [00:28:00] advocate for themselves and understand themselves.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Well, knowledge is power. And these diagnoses and labels and disorders are all very scary and very, you know, what’s wrong with me, I’m damaged. So the more you know, you know, for example, that ADHD, it’s estimated anywhere between 6 and 10 to 12 percent of the population has, has ADD or ADHD.
Um, it’s, you’re not so different, you’re not so impaired. Um, and when you find out the people, uh, who are successful in business or sports or, or entertainment, um, who have either dyslexia or, or ADHD. ADHD. Um, and that didn’t hold them back. So, you know, you have to instill some hope and, um, and, uh, and demystify it as we talk about it in psychology, the diagnosis for the [00:29:00] problem.
Frances Shefter: And it’s, you know, it’s funny you say that because I’ve had clients often, you know, say this is why ADHD is helpful, you know, because their brain works differently and there’s some things that your typical brains can’t do as well as
Dr. Ken Stefano: ADHD brains.
Frances Shefter: Um, yeah, no,
Dr. Ken Stefano: I mean, I always tell Um, uh, parents and students, while you’re in school, you need to be a jack of all trades.
You need to be able to read, write, do math, learn history, learn science, do all kinds of things that your brain may not be good at. Hopefully, when you choose a career path, you’re going to choose something that not only you’re interested in, but something that you’re good at. And the thing specifically about ADHD people is that in addition to not being able to attend to things that they don’t want to, they can hyper focus and hyper attend to [00:30:00] things that they are motivated to do or do jazz them up or do excite them. So therefore, on the job, they might be stellar because they hyper focus on it.
Frances Shefter: And that’s, that’s one of the misconceptions on ADD and ADHD. Everybody always thinks That a DD is the only thing is a DHD, it has the hyperactivity part, and that if your kid’s not bouncing off the wall, it can’t be a DHD. It can’t be a DD, right?
Dr. Ken Stefano: No. They’re just not trying hard enough. Or they’re, they’re under, they’re, they’re, they’re underachieving, they’re lazy. They don’t care. Um, when it is, you know, one of the ways I talk about ADHD is that we all have that little inner voice that motivates us to do things when we’re not feeling it. You know, like on Saturday morning when I just want to have another cup of coffee and not, not put in a load of laundry, I talk myself in, you [00:31:00] know, Ken, come on, just do it.
And then, and then you, and you get these things done. The ADHD person, it’s like that little voice is very minute. They can’t hear it, and they just can’t get themselves motivated to do those things.
Frances Shefter: And that it goes so much deep deeper because there’s the ina inattentive type. Mm-Hmm , which are the ones slip through the cracks all the time because they’re the ones that are quietly in the back of the room and look like they’re daydreaming. But that’s where, you know, they’re spaced out and lose, you know, um, that chunk of instruction. Um, which I know I’ve seen often that, um, anxiety often comes with the ADHD.
Dr. Ken Stefano: There’s a large
Frances Shefter: overlap.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Absolutely. Particularly performance or social anxiety, fear of making mistakes, embarrassing themselves, or being put on the spot. And, and that’s really, I think, because ADHD is, you know, it’s not a [00:32:00] problem of skills or abilities, but it’s a problem of performance. Um, when they need to demonstrate their skills and abilities, something, something happens. They can’t get organized, motivated, or focused to get started. They rush through it.
They lose focus halfway through. Or they do it and then forget to turn it in. Something happens, um, you know, I
Frances Shefter: hear that all of the time. It’s like they sat there all day. all weekend doing the assignments and they never turn them in.
Dr. Ken Stefano: And when that happens over and over that begin, that can in a lot of ADHD kids, uh, uh, lead to the development of comorbid anxiety. about me, right?
Frances Shefter: So what? I mean, that’s going into the executive functioning. I know. What are some things parents can do to help with that? Because we don’t want the parents to submit the work. We want the kids to submit the work. But how can the parents help [00:33:00] get the kids, like, get the kids to do it? Basically,
Dr. Ken Stefano: um, you, one of the ways I talk about accommodations for executive functioning or ADHD. Is that accommodations or strategies are kind of like eyeglasses? Uh, you know, my my glasses, they don’t make me smarter. I’m not wearing them because I’m dumb. I’m wearing them because my eyes don’t focus well enough far away for me to be able to see aboard. So for someone with ADHD, you don’t get upset with them. Because they’re not motivated, you get upset with them when they don’t wear their glasses, when they don’t do the strategies that they’ve been taught by you, by their coach, um, or a teacher to start a task. Um, and then, uh, it’s all about, um, [00:34:00] uh, scaffolding with ADHD.
ADHD kids are like buildings with unstable foundations. They’re not developing those attention, organization, and planning skills at the same degree or at the same rate, um, as their peers. So just like a building under construction needs scaffolding built around it while the foundation solidifies, ADHD kids need scaffolding around them, i.e. external structure, regular routines. You create the right environment for the student to then do the work. So right. You can’t make your, your, your kid do his or her homework, but you can make sure that they have a homework, dedicated homework, time, a dedicated homework place. the debt, the necessary materials, um, and the necessary either support or oversight that allows [00:35:00] them, um, to do the work.
Frances Shefter: And I just want to swing back to something you said, because you said, um, taught the skills and that’s a big one, um, between 504s and IEPs where it comes in and you know, the executive functioning skills need to be directly taught. That’s the specialized instruction that you need for an IEP. You don’t get it on the 504 and that’s
Dr. Ken Stefano: right. It’s not, um, uh, uh, it, it, they, they’re not, the skills are not developing naturally. So you need to, um, to augment that, you know, it’s kind of like, um, Um, you know, if they’re, they’re supposed to be functioning here and they’re functioning, you know, here, um, the, you need to teach those skills to narrow that gap so that they’re acquiring those skills that are lagging.[00:36:00]
Frances Shefter: And that’s, I know, well written reports will often put in the recommendations, you know, teach executive functioning skills, do this, which, which is the language the parents need to get that transferred into an IEP.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Right. Yes.
Frances Shefter: And so, like, I know I’ve had clients before, like they got, they did a private evaluation and it came back without school recommendations.
So, of course, my client reached back out and said, Hey, we need school recommendations. You know, we need to take that. What, what are the necessary parts that parents should make sure are in reports when they want to get an
Dr. Ken Stefano: IEP? Very good. Um, well, um, a report. needs to, um, uh, first and foremost, have some sort of statement about the reliability or, or believed validity of the scores.
So, uh, you know, I [00:37:00] remember when computers were first, um, brought out and they used to have a phrase called Geico garbage in garbage out. If you don’t enter the information correctly, you’re not going to get it out correctly. Um, it’s the same thing with testing. You need to have this student’s best performance. on that day. And so, um, they, they need to be properly prepared for the evaluation. But the report should make a statement that, that they’ve worked hard. They, um, were motivated, seemed motivated. They persevered, um, when things got challenging or the opposite, did they give up right away? Um, did they, uh, become anxious and start making self derogatory comments about their performance?
Um, you need to have a description of the performance in addition, um, to the scores. Um, I, a report [00:38:00] also needs to, if you’re getting a private evaluation, Um, by, uh, uh, a psychologist, our training teaches us to diagnose and while it’s true that you don’t always need a diagnosis for school based accommodations or an IEP, having that label is sometimes very important down the road.
It’s important because for ADHD, for example, there are some pediatricians and psychiatrists who will not prescribe ADHD meds unless that student has had an evaluation and a diagnosis because the meds, you know, have been so over prescribed, um, uh, over the years. But
Frances Shefter: diagnosed. Just want to clarify that schools not diagnosed. So that’s another difference.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Yes. And sometimes that diagnosis is needed then [00:39:00] for maybe college board accommodations. It’s needed for college accommodations. So, uh, if you get a private evaluation, it should have a diagnosis. Um, a private evaluation should, um, also document clearly in what ways the diagnosis is interfering with academic and daily functioning.
Exactly. Because you can have, and just as the school system rightly says, you can have a dozen diagnoses. But if those diagnoses are not impacting education, they don’t get services. Exactly. And they wouldn’t need them. They, it has to be big enough. And sometimes that’s something that’s really tough for parents to understand.
Well, he has a diagnosis, so we should get the [00:40:00] accommodations and it’s just not. You know, not always the case,
Frances Shefter: and that’s something that where we come in to make sure the educational impact and where to fight the educational impact
Dr. Ken Stefano: use.
Frances Shefter: And I wanted to give a pointer to that. If they’re doing this without an attorney or an advocate, or even if they are, and the attorney or advocate doesn’t know when they bring an independent evaluation to the school, and they have it reviewed, Good. What I always do is I let the psychologist go through the evaluation, give their report, you know, whoever else does part of it, do that. And then before I say anything about the report, I say, so you’re accepting this as valid and, you know, acceptable because once they’ve said this is valid scores, a lot of times what schools will say is, well, yeah, we accept it.
We don’t, we don’t, we don’t totally agree with the recommendation. Right. But we agree with the report because then when I [00:41:00] go in and point out, well, you said here that the child, you know, wasn’t paying attention. Well, that’s not available for learning. That’s an educational impact, you know, or like then when I go in and point out in the report where hey These are the educational impact. They don’t have a leg to stand on. They just accepted it as valid I’m not talking about recommendations. I’m talking about the scores and the Actual what’s in the report?
Dr. Ken Stefano: Oh, yeah that’s sometimes where a Educational attorneys and advocates that I’ve also worked with will sometimes want me to go to the IEP meeting as well to hear the school systems review of my evaluation to see if they’ve said any, if they’ve missed anything, if they glossed over anything or discounted things in their conceptualization or their [00:42:00] opinion about the report. Thank you.
Frances Shefter: That’s so important. Yeah. Yeah. No, I don’t like I’m like thinking about it now, but I’m also thinking about like parents. It’s frustrating that they have to pay the attorney and pay the advocate, pay the private psychologist, pay all this to get the school. To what they need to do and they’re supposed to do and it’s frustrating But as a parent i’m like, but what would I do for my child,
Dr. Ken Stefano: right?
Frances Shefter: You know like their life their education their self confidence I’ll pay what I have to pay, you know, like i’ll go Survive on one car. The only thing I told my husband is i’ll never give up the maid I’ll give up eating out. I’ll give up
Dr. Ken Stefano: everything but but that I don’t want to have to I can’t And to run my the rest of the life
Frances Shefter: Yeah, I’m not scrubbing a toilet. Sorry. but you know, like that’s it. It’s important that we do what we need to do for our kids and make it happen because again, like all of this impacts the rest of their life. [00:43:00] So important. Um, uh, well, this has been so great. I’m just looking at the time and I’m like, Oh my gosh, I have so many more questions and so many more things. I feel like we could talk all day about it. We,
Dr. Ken Stefano: we, we, we could. This is, I’m, I’m so enjoying this.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, definitely. Um, so yeah, I think, but I think we are at a good point to wrap up. I’m thinking so, um, because I’m trying to think if there was anything else, was there anything else that I didn’t hit on that you think is important for parents to know?
Dr. Ken Stefano: would say that sometimes. It’s important to, um, establish a paper trail so that, you know, maybe you can’t get the school system to do an evaluation quite yet because, you know, they don’t see that there’s a big enough problem. Make sure that you’ve saved. Emails that you’ve sent to the teacher about your concerns.
Make sure you save screenshots of missing assignments on the online portal so that [00:44:00] you’ve got that paper trail. Um, in the event that it comes up again, because that’s part of die. Part of diagnosing and also part of special education.
Identification is that the problem is not just transient or transitory.
Frances Shefter: The problem has been there and that also helps if it ever goes to litigation and getting competitive. Or even the private evaluation reimbursed for it Refused to evaluate so great advice. I always say it I put it in writing if it’s a phone conversation. You said any For our conversation yesterday did it in writing, you know, they didn’t respond to say it was wrong
Dr. Ken Stefano: Exactly.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, this has been awesome and so helpful. Oh,
Dr. Ken Stefano: thank you. And I’m so appreciative that you invited me to do this. Um, it, it, um, was, uh, very enjoyable and, um, uh, you know, just, [00:45:00] I would just say to parents out there, um, don’t be embarrassed or shy about not knowing What’s going on? Um, there’s it’s so complicated.
That’s why there are people like you
Frances Shefter: And people like you because this is both hand in hand You know, we both rely on each other because I don’t know everything, you know, and you don’t know
Dr. Ken Stefano: Right
Frances Shefter: both both are needed unfortunately, well not unfortunately, but both are needed in making a case
Dr. Ken Stefano: Yeah.
Absolute.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. Thank you so much for being on the show. You’re
Dr. Ken Stefano: very welcome. It was again, it was my pleasure.
Voice-Over: You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEP® with your host, Frances Shefter. Remember, you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through shefterlaw.com, where prior episodes are also posted.Thank you for your positive reviews. Comments and sharing the show with [00:46:00] others through YouTube, LinkedIn, Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, Stitcher, and more.
Evaluating Your Special Needs Child with Dr. Ken Stefano
Stress-Free IEP® with Frances Shefter, Episode 65
In this episode of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter is joined by Dr. Ken Stefano, Clinical Psychologist and Owner of Kenneth Stefano & Associates, a socio-educational testing and consultation practice based in Rockville. Dr. Stefano specializes in the psychological assessment of children and adolescents, offering insights into their educational needs and supporting their learning development through tailored interventions.
Tune in to the episode to hear about:
Watch the earlier Stress-Free IEP® episode mentioned in this one: Understanding Test Results with Dr. Randi Brown
Learn more about Dr. Ken Stefano:
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Stress-Free IEP®:
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP® experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
Watch more episodes of Stress-Free IEP®:
Connect and learn more from your host, Frances Shefter:
Read the whole transcript:
Introduction to Stress-Free IEP®
Voice-Over: Welcome to Stress-Free IEP®. You do not need to do it all alone with your host, Frances Shefter, principal of Shefter Law. You can get more details and catch prior episodes at www. Shefterlaw.com. The Stress-Free IEP® video podcast is also posted on YouTube and LinkedIn, and you can listen to episodes through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, Stitcher, and more. Now, here’s the host of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter.
Meet Dr. Ken Stefano
Frances Shefter: Hello everyone, and welcome to the show. Today’s special guest, Dr. Ken Stefano, is a clinical psychologist and owner of Kenneth Stefano Associates, where That is a socio educational testing and consultation practice in Rockville. And a fun fact that I don’t even know if Ken [00:01:00] remembers, but I met Ken, I want to say about a decade ago on a case when he did an evaluation for one of an educational decision makers client.
And then he had myself and the education as the education attorney and the educational decision maker come in and he reviewed the report with us. And that was the first time I had heard of somebody doing that. And I thought it was so amazing that he went through everything on the report so that we understood it all.
And then he also offered to review it with a child who was a teenager.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Um, I wish I remembered that. Thank you. Thank you for that.
Frances Shefter: But yeah, I just I remembered that and your name always stuck in my head because it was like I was so impressed with that, especially explaining to the child because these reports, you know, our kids need to understand them.
And as teenagers, um, what it says and what it says. how their brain works differently.
Understanding the IEP Process
Dr. Ken Stefano: Well, I think that this process, the IEP process [00:02:00] is overwhelming enough for a parent or parents. Um, but then, you know, The students themselves, they hear all this language thrown around, present levels of performance, IEP goals and, and services and, and they don’t know what, you know, what’s going on with them.
Why, you know, why do they need this extra support? And so I think that it’s, you know, really, um, essential for students to know about their learning profiles, their strengths and weaknesses so that they can better advocate for themselves and be better independent students than to not have to have to rely on their parents to always advocate for them.
Frances Shefter: But yeah, that is so, yeah, it’s so true. And then especially with our teenagers, I know, like I’ve said it before, I’m sure listeners have heard me say it, that the way I explain it is that your brain works differently. Uhhuh, . It’s not a disability, it’s not something [00:03:00] wrong with you. It doesn’t need to be fixed.
Your brain just works differently. And this is how your brain works.
Dr. Ken Stefano: I, I presented that, that, um, not everybody can swim as fast as Katie Ledecky. Right? Right. Your, you can’t read, write, sit, attend, as well as maybe, um, your best friend, but, you know, so I, that, that, that’s the way I describe it, because it, because they’re, yes, they’re not disabilities. I hate all of the labels. Um, uh, you know, the labels are essential, particularly for the IEP process, um, to have that label, which, you know, which is the gatekeeper to, um, to even start the process of the IEP. So,
Frances Shefter: yeah, I mean, I know the label. is what they use for 504 plans and IEPs, that disability. Although technically they don’t, legally, they don’t have to have a diagnosis.
The school can get the [00:04:00] information.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Correct.
Frances Shefter: But, um, obviously having a diagnosis is a little bit stronger.
School vs. Private Evaluations
Frances Shefter: Um, what do you think, like, I know we get questions a lot of like, Should I have the school evaluate or should I get a private evaluation? Like, what’s the difference for parents to understand the true process?
Dr. Ken Stefano: Well, and I had a, uh, a consultation recently with a family, um, where this came up, um, and Let me talk about this specific situation, and then I’ll expand that a little bit to talk about, you know, when and when to do what. So this is a youngster who’s been struggling, school’s been struggling, saying that he’s struggling with his academic progress for the last year, and the parents called to say the school is going to do an assessment of, to see if he has a learning disability, if he qualifies for an IEP.
But, um, we want our own opinion too. Like, okay, [00:05:00] well, um, uh, you know, You can’t do, uh, you know, both at the same time because some of the tests that are administered if you’re doing an evaluation, uh, cannot be re administered within a certain amount of time. What I advise this family, since the school system was the one who identified the problem and initiated the process, I, I recommended, go ahead and let the school system do their evaluations.
Then schedule a consult with me to review the evaluations to see if there’s any additional information that’s needed. And the reason for that is when the school system does an evaluation, not only might there be several disparate evaluations that don’t communicate with each other and don’t integrate with each other, But the school system, because of their demands and limited [00:06:00] resources, their goal is to, you know, do the minimal amount of testing that’s required to get the documentation.
And quite frankly, it’s not to the school system’s advantage to identify a problem, because then they have to use their resources to do something about it. So sometimes, um, a, a, a private evaluation. is going to be, uh, first of all, much more comprehensive. Um, for, um, example, when, um, the school system generally assesses academic achievement.
In addition to looking at the standardized testing scores and curriculum based, um, measures of progress, the school system will do an educational evaluation that will consist of a test called the Woodcock Johnson Test of Achievement. Most normally. Woodcock Johnson is a fine, um, test to hope [00:07:00] to, uh, to begin an, an educational evaluation.
It gets you some good information, but it doesn’t go in depth enough to tell you. not only to tell you what specific area of reading, writing or math is problematic, but it’s not sensitive enough to pick up all problems because it’s much more of a screening. So a private evaluation where the school based educational might be an hour Maybe 90 minutes if, if that private evaluation, the educational portion is about three to four hours, depending upon how many additional supplemental subtests that or supplemental measures that I give to be able to flesh out what the problem is.
Frances Shefter: You know, it’s interesting that you say that because I’ve said that all the time is that when the schools do it, the evaluation, they’re just also only focused on the educational. Oh, yes. Right impact and they have one [00:08:00] person do the academic and one person do the psychological And they go hand in hand And I know like when I got my daughters tested They were like, hmm.
They saw something that didn’t quite fit, right? So they dug deeper. Whereas when the school, when they’re looking at them individually, it’s not, it’s not comprehensive enough to know where you need to dig a little deeper, right?
Dr. Ken Stefano: Right. And absolutely.
The Importance of Comprehensive Reports
Dr. Ken Stefano: And not only dig deeper, but reports done by schools are generally very brief and they’re not very descriptive.
They report score. level performance. And, and that’s, that’s it. For me, sometimes getting an average score is not the most, um, uh, important aspect of that particular skill that’s being assessed. It’s how was that score achieved? Did [00:09:00] they, um, were they careless and missed a lot of early items? So they lost a lot of points.
Um, were they not confident in their responses? So they, Uh, said I don’t know or weren’t willing to take an academic risk. So without that analysis, sometimes when I get a school based report, I’m looking at the numbers and I’m like, well, that’s fine that they got an average score, but I don’t know what that means.
I don’t know how that, and so a private report, at least our reports for a psychoeducational evaluation, I write reports that are anywhere between 25 and 30 pages long. Right. Because you have to describe. What is going on?
Frances Shefter: Right. And the school’s educational assessments are usually three pages and the psychological Maybe seven or eight. I don’t think I’ve seen, I think I might’ve seen one like that was 13 or 14, but that’s because they, they put all the, yeah, yeah.
Frances Shefter: [00:10:00] The scores, which mean, you know, next to, well, which means next to nothing to most people. I know my absolute very first show was stress free cousin, Randy Ginsburg, who was a school based neuropsychologist and she explained the scores and able to break it down.
Um, very well. And then I know like what I’ve learned is that you want a sub scores because that’s where a lot of like dyslexia I know comes out because average their average dyslexic kids are usually very smart and they know how to, um, to mask.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Yeah. And
Frances Shefter: it’s not until you get down to the nitty gritty of those little sub scores that you see the difference.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Well, exactly.
ADHD and Dyslexia Insights
Dr. Ken Stefano: Uh, just speaking of dyslexia. Um, again, just doing a Woodcock Johnson, you would get a score that says decoding, um, is, is weak. But there are different aspects of decoding. Is [00:11:00] the problem more phonologically based? Um, you know, sound manipulation and decoding? Or is it more visually based in terms of visual memory for letter and word configurations?
And so you need to analyze that and sometimes pull out specific measures of phonological processing or the visual processing is called orthographic, um, processing in memory to see where the problem lies because my, uh, one of the things that I dislike About services in a lot of school systems is in addition to not doing remediation in a in a in a thorough and complete way, but they’re sort of doing it in the dark.
Which do I use Orton Gillingham? Do I use Linda Mood Bell? Do I use? phonographics, you need to know what type of dyslexia you’re [00:12:00] dealing with and just doing a one test is usually not enough to know that.
Frances Shefter: I’m so glad you said that because I know a lot of people, everybody says if they hear dyslexia they say Orton Gillingham.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Period.
Frances Shefter: But apparently it’s not right. There’s not always.
Dr. Ken Stefano: No.
Frances Shefter: Interesting. And so, um, going into that, going deeper, that’s, that just blew my mind. That’s my new thing. Like, like, that’s my one big thing I learned. That’s why I love doing my show is because I learn a lot.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Exactly.
Frances Shefter: Um, as a parent of both kids have dyslexia, so it makes a difference as well.
Um, but, um, yeah, interesting. So you, you were saying that you will review the school’s evaluations. Like what does that look like? How does that,
Dr. Ken Stefano: well, um, um, as I said before that, um, while I, I, I. Genuinely believe that [00:13:00] most educators have the student’s best interest, um, um, in the forefront. Um, there’s also, um, fiscal responsibilities and, and pressures in other areas. And so, um, oftentimes, as I said, when the school system does an evaluation, if it’s not comprehensive enough, there are signs or some yellow or red flags, but think, but nothing that rises to the level of indicating, uh, a substantially impactful, um, impact. Um, and so what I like to do is to, uh, first of all, um, see how comprehensive was this assessment?
Because as you said, certain Some psychologicals do, school based, do go into more detail, some educationals do, um, and I will review the evaluation to see, you know, if they came up with a diagnosis or came up with [00:14:00] areas of need, do I see that or do I don’t, or do, is there something in the data that I’m looking at that tells, that makes me want to improve?
explore a particular area more to to see because there’s, if there’s a problem, because, as you said, a lot of, for example, dyslexic kids are very bright and they’ve learned ways to compensate and to mask and hide their weaknesses. And so if Um, their skills are not pressed and they’re not stressed and not made to do things in different ways and multiple times.
They might, uh, sort of, uh, get by on a more abbreviated assessment.
Frances Shefter: Right. Yeah. And that’s what I’ve had before many times before that it didn’t show the dyslexia. [00:15:00] Um, and that where it came into the sub scores. That’s why I learned it because I had, I had a client and then it wasn’t the psychologist made a comment or reviewing everybody saying not not eligible.
The teacher was adamant. Um, everything not eligible. And the psychologist made a comment about the sub scores that it. Like, I think it was like between six and seven was one and a half standard deviations. And I’m like, wait a minute. So any scores of six would automatically be the discrepancy you need for eligibility.
She said, yes. I’m like spelling, reading fluency. And I forgot the third one. All of them were six. And she goes, Person’s up the kids eligible. Wow.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Yeah,
Frances Shefter: right. Yeah. And that was after six hours of meetings. We had three different meetings and it was just this fight, fight, fight. Like we knew it was there.
This fight, fight, fight. And it wasn’t like I knew to list like, listen, I was like, Whoa, wait a minute. And that one little piece, um, that was able to get us where we wanted to go.
Dr. Ken Stefano: I was at an [00:16:00] IEP meeting once. where I was advocating that the student should, um, get an IEP, not for dyslexia, but for a disorder of written expression, a written language learning disability.
And what, um, I believe the learning specialist or some school administrator said Was that the student couldn’t have a learning disability in written language because the school system did not have a standardized way of measuring writing achievement. So therefore, ergo, you can’t have a learning disability in it.
And before I could jump across the table, the school systems, uh, uh, attorney, um, jumped in and, and corrected, um, the person, but, uh, but, but yeah, and I, and I was at another meeting where. Um, the psychologist said at the beginning of the meeting before we talk about, um, these scores, I want you to make sure that it’s not always just percentiles and numbers.
[00:17:00] It’s, it’s absolute improvement, um, that we’re looking at. And, and he then presented data to show that over six in six months time, the students scores on a particular instrument, um, increased from, I’m just making this up 67 to, um, 85. So a big number increase. And so that showed significant progress until I pointed out to him that there’s a number increase.
Yes, but both of those scores are below the first percentile compared to people in the population. So there was a relative improvement, but they’re still functioning. less than 99 percent of their peers.
Tips for Parents and Final Thoughts
Dr. Ken Stefano: So I guess I say that to throw in, you know, part of this is talk about how to have a Stress-Free IEP® and how to, how to prepare, um, is to make [00:18:00] sure, um, you know, that, uh, that you do learn about, um, about your rights.
bring someone like you, um, to, um, a meeting, um, because, um, there is just, it’s just too complex and too much to know.
Frances Shefter: And I’m just thinking along the lines of if, you know, parents are out there and they want to do it on their end. I have parents all the time saying, well, I don’t want to be adversarial and bring an attorney.
And I’m like, I’m not the adversarial attorney. Usually I start off, you know, like I’m part of the team member. Um, you know, the team, let’s we work together and that’s how I’m bringing an attorney brings extra eyes and central office that knows a lot more. Um, and their attorneys that knows the law and can put things straight. But I’m thinking along the lines for those parents that going to an eligibility meeting that they can just bring the school documents to you and you can help point out and give them the language. to attempt on their own.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Yes. [00:19:00] I also, um, always make a recommendation. Um, uh, one of my parent recommendations, um, is for parents to check out rightslaw.com, you know, Peter Wright’s, um, organization in Northern Virginia. I just find that his books and his website are just fonts of information for parents about how to prepare themselves to, uh, to advocate for their children best.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, his, I use his site often. Um, and I went to his, one of his trainings. He has a one day training.
Oh, he does. He still does trainings. He does. He does them all virtual now, which is even better. Oh, that’s even better. I know. So, um, yeah, so he’s still doing the trainings. I think the next one, at least in Maryland is September. I want to say, because my new associate, your senior associate is gonna go to learn the basics.
Um, but yeah, I mean, I say that all the time for parents is is to educate yourself, [00:20:00] research, find the terminology. Um, you know, I often tell them also, Whether you have or you, well, I don’t want to say that always say, well, I was talking to an attorney, you know, because just saying that sometimes gets the school to change their mind about which way they’re going,
Dr. Ken Stefano: because that says,
Frances Shefter: oh, I might be bringing an attorney in and schools don’t want attorneys to come in generally.
Dr. Ken Stefano: No, they don’t. Um,
Frances Shefter: yeah.
Dr. Ken Stefano: And, and of course, I’m sure you found some, some specific schools within a school district or some school districts. are easier to work with than others.
Frances Shefter: Yes. And some attorneys within school districts are easier. And some
Dr. Ken Stefano: attorneys within, yes.
Frances Shefter: Exactly. And, and, you know, with, with doing this as long as I have, like I know which ones and I know how to communicate.
Um, and it’s always nice, like to have that conversation beforehand. Like we can’t predetermine, but attorneys can talk attorney to attorney of like, this is what we’re thinking. This is where we’re [00:21:00] going. And then it’s not like, it’s not the team predetermining anything. It’s just the attorneys talking to make the meeting a little bit more streamlined.
Um, because I hate when the schools won’t tell us what they’re thinking on disability code. I won’t tell us what they’re thinking about placement and services because they, at least in Montgomery County, they say it’s, it’s considered predetermination. And I’m like,
Dr. Ken Stefano: right. But on the other hand, how many times IEP meeting where before the meeting starts The school team is in the room with the door closed for several minutes, having the pre meeting to decide what they’re going to present.
So, you know, they
Frances Shefter: have, that’s not predetermination. It’s totally predetermination. And it’s so clear in some meetings on how, how predetermined it is because they’re not even listening or they only have, you know, a person from [00:22:00] one program there. know, I always make, like, I try to fight for my clients to be able to visit programs and they’re like, well, that’s predetermined.
I’m like, no, it’s not. It’s my clients gathering as much information as you all have as the school system to look at. Is the autism program appropriate? Is life skills appropriate? Is school community based learning appropriate? Like which program is appropriate? If my clients haven’t visited any of those schools, they’re relying on your information.
allow them to be fully informed and meaningfully participate.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Exactly. Exactly.
Frances Shefter: So, yeah, um, I love the idea of you. I’m just thinking it through of you reviewing things and giving your input of what you think, um, You know, disabilities and what points, right? Because you go, you go into deep detail and we’ll recommend what these you feel are primary or secondary.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Yes.
Frances Shefter: Um,
Dr. Ken Stefano: and to [00:23:00] follow up something from earlier, the, uh, an additional thing that you touched on that you get with a private evaluation is Um, in addition to classroom testing accommodations and recommended services and related services, uh, private evaluation should have specific recommendations for home in terms of how to support that student.
Um, you know, they’re reading their academics with their attention. Um, you know, the problem doesn’t end at three o’clock. It does for the school, and I get that that’s the only, you know, time period they have to, uh, worry about, but it doesn’t end for the parent.
Frances Shefter: Right, now that’s when a parent kicks up. And I think you have a book out there, um, For taking control of ADHD.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Yes. It’s called, yeah, it’s take control of, of ADHD. The ultimate guide for teens was written by myself [00:24:00] and my, I, I, I say late, um, partner, but she’s not deceased. It’s just, she retired and it’s no longer here. Ruth Spodak. And we really wrote it for, um, for teenagers to, um, demystify the diagnosis. And to, um, see that, um, they’re not alone. There is comfort in knowing that you’re not, you know, that we’re all in the same boat, that there’s other people in this boat with you, that you’re not going down this, uh, you know, this path, this, this river yourself. Um, and, um, I find that a lot of parents, uh, like it too because we, we wrote it in a very, Common everyday language way, trying not to use psycho jargon, which I also try not to use too much in my reports.
I’ve read some [00:25:00] psychological reports of specifically of looking at social, emotional and personality functioning, and they get done describing the Oedipal complex and this complex, and they’re using all this terminology. And I’m like, well, what does that mean? What is it, you know, functionally? How was this?
Um, kid impact. So it’s for parents also, but For parents also, but it really, it follows Um, six imaginary students of, uh, boys, girls, some with more executive functioning problems, some who are more hyperactive, some who are more just distractible, and it walks them through at each stage of identification. accommodations, treatment, and, and understanding.
Frances Shefter: Oh, that’s wonderful. And I’m sure that that’s really important for our, especially our older teens that are going off to college [00:26:00] because guess what? Mom and dad don’t drive the ship anymore. You’re 18 and you’re the one that has to go and advocate for your services and so forth.
Although I did have
Dr. Ken Stefano: one parent one time actually installed a landline telephone in their son’s dorm room so they could call him every morning to wake him up. Yes. Now that takes helicopter parenting and doing it, uh, you know, way too far. But, um, one of the, the, the, uh, I, one of the, I think, um, relatively unique things that my practice does also is after we do a feedback or interpretive conference with the parents to understand the report.
I never recommend that a student, um, read their psychoeducational evaluation. Um, it’s not written for them. It’s overwhelming enough for a parent to read a document that’s 25, 30 pages, uh, you know, about their, their child. Um, and [00:27:00] I also stress with parents that, um, you know, you didn’t pay me to go on about all of your child’s, um, Strengths and good qualities.
There are many qualities that your child has. You paid me to identify what’s the problem, describe it and then what’s the remedy. So therefore it’s 25, 30 pages on what’s not going well. So they need to, you know, understand that, that that’s not, The be all and end all of their child, uh, but for students, I’ll have, uh, I’ll meet with them, um, separately, uh, middle school and above, um, for a developmentally appropriate feedback session about what their learning style is, and what they do well, what they should emphasize, and then, you know, what are, what things are more challenging, um, for them.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, and that’s so important also, because it’s, it’s giving our kids the autonomy to be able to go in and [00:28:00] advocate for themselves and understand themselves.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Well, knowledge is power. And these diagnoses and labels and disorders are all very scary and very, you know, what’s wrong with me, I’m damaged. So the more you know, you know, for example, that ADHD, it’s estimated anywhere between 6 and 10 to 12 percent of the population has, has ADD or ADHD.
Um, it’s, you’re not so different, you’re not so impaired. Um, and when you find out the people, uh, who are successful in business or sports or, or entertainment, um, who have either dyslexia or, or ADHD. ADHD. Um, and that didn’t hold them back. So, you know, you have to instill some hope and, um, and, uh, and demystify it as we talk about it in psychology, the diagnosis for the [00:29:00] problem.
Frances Shefter: And it’s, you know, it’s funny you say that because I’ve had clients often, you know, say this is why ADHD is helpful, you know, because their brain works differently and there’s some things that your typical brains can’t do as well as
Dr. Ken Stefano: ADHD brains.
Frances Shefter: Um, yeah, no,
Dr. Ken Stefano: I mean, I always tell Um, uh, parents and students, while you’re in school, you need to be a jack of all trades.
You need to be able to read, write, do math, learn history, learn science, do all kinds of things that your brain may not be good at. Hopefully, when you choose a career path, you’re going to choose something that not only you’re interested in, but something that you’re good at. And the thing specifically about ADHD people is that in addition to not being able to attend to things that they don’t want to, they can hyper focus and hyper attend to [00:30:00] things that they are motivated to do or do jazz them up or do excite them. So therefore, on the job, they might be stellar because they hyper focus on it.
Frances Shefter: And that’s, that’s one of the misconceptions on ADD and ADHD. Everybody always thinks That a DD is the only thing is a DHD, it has the hyperactivity part, and that if your kid’s not bouncing off the wall, it can’t be a DHD. It can’t be a DD, right?
Dr. Ken Stefano: No. They’re just not trying hard enough. Or they’re, they’re under, they’re, they’re, they’re underachieving, they’re lazy. They don’t care. Um, when it is, you know, one of the ways I talk about ADHD is that we all have that little inner voice that motivates us to do things when we’re not feeling it. You know, like on Saturday morning when I just want to have another cup of coffee and not, not put in a load of laundry, I talk myself in, you [00:31:00] know, Ken, come on, just do it.
And then, and then you, and you get these things done. The ADHD person, it’s like that little voice is very minute. They can’t hear it, and they just can’t get themselves motivated to do those things.
Frances Shefter: And that it goes so much deep deeper because there’s the ina inattentive type. Mm-Hmm , which are the ones slip through the cracks all the time because they’re the ones that are quietly in the back of the room and look like they’re daydreaming. But that’s where, you know, they’re spaced out and lose, you know, um, that chunk of instruction. Um, which I know I’ve seen often that, um, anxiety often comes with the ADHD.
Dr. Ken Stefano: There’s a large
Frances Shefter: overlap.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Absolutely. Particularly performance or social anxiety, fear of making mistakes, embarrassing themselves, or being put on the spot. And, and that’s really, I think, because ADHD is, you know, it’s not a [00:32:00] problem of skills or abilities, but it’s a problem of performance. Um, when they need to demonstrate their skills and abilities, something, something happens. They can’t get organized, motivated, or focused to get started. They rush through it.
They lose focus halfway through. Or they do it and then forget to turn it in. Something happens, um, you know, I
Frances Shefter: hear that all of the time. It’s like they sat there all day. all weekend doing the assignments and they never turn them in.
Dr. Ken Stefano: And when that happens over and over that begin, that can in a lot of ADHD kids, uh, uh, lead to the development of comorbid anxiety. about me, right?
Frances Shefter: So what? I mean, that’s going into the executive functioning. I know. What are some things parents can do to help with that? Because we don’t want the parents to submit the work. We want the kids to submit the work. But how can the parents help [00:33:00] get the kids, like, get the kids to do it? Basically,
Dr. Ken Stefano: um, you, one of the ways I talk about accommodations for executive functioning or ADHD. Is that accommodations or strategies are kind of like eyeglasses? Uh, you know, my my glasses, they don’t make me smarter. I’m not wearing them because I’m dumb. I’m wearing them because my eyes don’t focus well enough far away for me to be able to see aboard. So for someone with ADHD, you don’t get upset with them. Because they’re not motivated, you get upset with them when they don’t wear their glasses, when they don’t do the strategies that they’ve been taught by you, by their coach, um, or a teacher to start a task. Um, and then, uh, it’s all about, um, [00:34:00] uh, scaffolding with ADHD.
ADHD kids are like buildings with unstable foundations. They’re not developing those attention, organization, and planning skills at the same degree or at the same rate, um, as their peers. So just like a building under construction needs scaffolding built around it while the foundation solidifies, ADHD kids need scaffolding around them, i.e. external structure, regular routines. You create the right environment for the student to then do the work. So right. You can’t make your, your, your kid do his or her homework, but you can make sure that they have a homework, dedicated homework, time, a dedicated homework place. the debt, the necessary materials, um, and the necessary either support or oversight that allows [00:35:00] them, um, to do the work.
Frances Shefter: And I just want to swing back to something you said, because you said, um, taught the skills and that’s a big one, um, between 504s and IEPs where it comes in and you know, the executive functioning skills need to be directly taught. That’s the specialized instruction that you need for an IEP. You don’t get it on the 504 and that’s
Dr. Ken Stefano: right. It’s not, um, uh, uh, it, it, they, they’re not, the skills are not developing naturally. So you need to, um, to augment that, you know, it’s kind of like, um, Um, you know, if they’re, they’re supposed to be functioning here and they’re functioning, you know, here, um, the, you need to teach those skills to narrow that gap so that they’re acquiring those skills that are lagging.[00:36:00]
Frances Shefter: And that’s, I know, well written reports will often put in the recommendations, you know, teach executive functioning skills, do this, which, which is the language the parents need to get that transferred into an IEP.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Right. Yes.
Frances Shefter: And so, like, I know I’ve had clients before, like they got, they did a private evaluation and it came back without school recommendations.
So, of course, my client reached back out and said, Hey, we need school recommendations. You know, we need to take that. What, what are the necessary parts that parents should make sure are in reports when they want to get an
Dr. Ken Stefano: IEP? Very good. Um, well, um, a report. needs to, um, uh, first and foremost, have some sort of statement about the reliability or, or believed validity of the scores.
So, uh, you know, I [00:37:00] remember when computers were first, um, brought out and they used to have a phrase called Geico garbage in garbage out. If you don’t enter the information correctly, you’re not going to get it out correctly. Um, it’s the same thing with testing. You need to have this student’s best performance. on that day. And so, um, they, they need to be properly prepared for the evaluation. But the report should make a statement that, that they’ve worked hard. They, um, were motivated, seemed motivated. They persevered, um, when things got challenging or the opposite, did they give up right away? Um, did they, uh, become anxious and start making self derogatory comments about their performance?
Um, you need to have a description of the performance in addition, um, to the scores. Um, I, a report [00:38:00] also needs to, if you’re getting a private evaluation, Um, by, uh, uh, a psychologist, our training teaches us to diagnose and while it’s true that you don’t always need a diagnosis for school based accommodations or an IEP, having that label is sometimes very important down the road.
It’s important because for ADHD, for example, there are some pediatricians and psychiatrists who will not prescribe ADHD meds unless that student has had an evaluation and a diagnosis because the meds, you know, have been so over prescribed, um, uh, over the years. But
Frances Shefter: diagnosed. Just want to clarify that schools not diagnosed. So that’s another difference.
Dr. Ken Stefano: Yes. And sometimes that diagnosis is needed then [00:39:00] for maybe college board accommodations. It’s needed for college accommodations. So, uh, if you get a private evaluation, it should have a diagnosis. Um, a private evaluation should, um, also document clearly in what ways the diagnosis is interfering with academic and daily functioning.
Exactly. Because you can have, and just as the school system rightly says, you can have a dozen diagnoses. But if those diagnoses are not impacting education, they don’t get services. Exactly. And they wouldn’t need them. They, it has to be big enough. And sometimes that’s something that’s really tough for parents to understand.
Well, he has a diagnosis, so we should get the [00:40:00] accommodations and it’s just not. You know, not always the case,
Frances Shefter: and that’s something that where we come in to make sure the educational impact and where to fight the educational impact
Dr. Ken Stefano: use.
Frances Shefter: And I wanted to give a pointer to that. If they’re doing this without an attorney or an advocate, or even if they are, and the attorney or advocate doesn’t know when they bring an independent evaluation to the school, and they have it reviewed, Good. What I always do is I let the psychologist go through the evaluation, give their report, you know, whoever else does part of it, do that. And then before I say anything about the report, I say, so you’re accepting this as valid and, you know, acceptable because once they’ve said this is valid scores, a lot of times what schools will say is, well, yeah, we accept it.
We don’t, we don’t, we don’t totally agree with the recommendation. Right. But we agree with the report because then when I [00:41:00] go in and point out, well, you said here that the child, you know, wasn’t paying attention. Well, that’s not available for learning. That’s an educational impact, you know, or like then when I go in and point out in the report where hey These are the educational impact. They don’t have a leg to stand on. They just accepted it as valid I’m not talking about recommendations. I’m talking about the scores and the Actual what’s in the report?
Dr. Ken Stefano: Oh, yeah that’s sometimes where a Educational attorneys and advocates that I’ve also worked with will sometimes want me to go to the IEP meeting as well to hear the school systems review of my evaluation to see if they’ve said any, if they’ve missed anything, if they glossed over anything or discounted things in their conceptualization or their [00:42:00] opinion about the report. Thank you.
Frances Shefter: That’s so important. Yeah. Yeah. No, I don’t like I’m like thinking about it now, but I’m also thinking about like parents. It’s frustrating that they have to pay the attorney and pay the advocate, pay the private psychologist, pay all this to get the school. To what they need to do and they’re supposed to do and it’s frustrating But as a parent i’m like, but what would I do for my child,
Dr. Ken Stefano: right?
Frances Shefter: You know like their life their education their self confidence I’ll pay what I have to pay, you know, like i’ll go Survive on one car. The only thing I told my husband is i’ll never give up the maid I’ll give up eating out. I’ll give up
Dr. Ken Stefano: everything but but that I don’t want to have to I can’t And to run my the rest of the life
Frances Shefter: Yeah, I’m not scrubbing a toilet. Sorry. but you know, like that’s it. It’s important that we do what we need to do for our kids and make it happen because again, like all of this impacts the rest of their life. [00:43:00] So important. Um, uh, well, this has been so great. I’m just looking at the time and I’m like, Oh my gosh, I have so many more questions and so many more things. I feel like we could talk all day about it. We,
Dr. Ken Stefano: we, we, we could. This is, I’m, I’m so enjoying this.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, definitely. Um, so yeah, I think, but I think we are at a good point to wrap up. I’m thinking so, um, because I’m trying to think if there was anything else, was there anything else that I didn’t hit on that you think is important for parents to know?
Dr. Ken Stefano: would say that sometimes. It’s important to, um, establish a paper trail so that, you know, maybe you can’t get the school system to do an evaluation quite yet because, you know, they don’t see that there’s a big enough problem. Make sure that you’ve saved. Emails that you’ve sent to the teacher about your concerns.
Make sure you save screenshots of missing assignments on the online portal so that [00:44:00] you’ve got that paper trail. Um, in the event that it comes up again, because that’s part of die. Part of diagnosing and also part of special education.
Identification is that the problem is not just transient or transitory.
Frances Shefter: The problem has been there and that also helps if it ever goes to litigation and getting competitive. Or even the private evaluation reimbursed for it Refused to evaluate so great advice. I always say it I put it in writing if it’s a phone conversation. You said any For our conversation yesterday did it in writing, you know, they didn’t respond to say it was wrong
Dr. Ken Stefano: Exactly.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, this has been awesome and so helpful. Oh,
Dr. Ken Stefano: thank you. And I’m so appreciative that you invited me to do this. Um, it, it, um, was, uh, very enjoyable and, um, uh, you know, just, [00:45:00] I would just say to parents out there, um, don’t be embarrassed or shy about not knowing What’s going on? Um, there’s it’s so complicated.
That’s why there are people like you
Frances Shefter: And people like you because this is both hand in hand You know, we both rely on each other because I don’t know everything, you know, and you don’t know
Dr. Ken Stefano: Right
Frances Shefter: both both are needed unfortunately, well not unfortunately, but both are needed in making a case
Dr. Ken Stefano: Yeah.
Absolute.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. Thank you so much for being on the show. You’re
Dr. Ken Stefano: very welcome. It was again, it was my pleasure.
Voice-Over: You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEP® with your host, Frances Shefter. Remember, you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through shefterlaw.com, where prior episodes are also posted.Thank you for your positive reviews. Comments and sharing the show with [00:46:00] others through YouTube, LinkedIn, Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, Stitcher, and more.
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