In this episode of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter speaks with Naomi Rubinstein, Family Educator and Social Learning Specialist in the Baltimore, Maryland area.
Tune into to the episode to hear about:
What a Social Learning Specialist is
Identifying if a child is having a hard time following routines or navigating social interactions
Supporting social habits in children both on and off of the spectrum
Identifying and addressing anxious feelings and behavior
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP® experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
VOICEOVER (00:00:02): Welcome to Stress-Free IEP®. You do not need to do it all alone with your host, Frances Shefter, Principal of Shefter Law. You can get more details and catch prior episodes at www.Shefterlaw.com. The Stress-Free IEP® video podcast is also posted on youtube and linkedin and you can listen to episodes through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcast, Stitcher and more. Now, here’s the host of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter.
Frances Shefter: (00:00:40): Hello, everyone and welcome to the show. I am hoping we’re not going to have issues because it looks like at the intro, there are a couple of glitches, but hopefully we’re gonna be good for today. Today’s special guest is Naomi Rubenstein, who is a family educator and social learning specialist and she’s in the Baltimore, Maryland area. So Naomi, please introduce yourself a little bit. Tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:01:05): Good morning. So, I have my Master’s in education and I work with children and families and I’ve been doing it for many years, but through kind of different venues. So I started out my graduate work in New York and came down back to Maryland and have been working in a lot of different settings, private schools, public schools, and just really happy to be here today. Thank you so much for having me.
Frances Shefter: (00:01:44): Thank you. And so social learning specialist. What is that specifically? Like, what does that title mean?
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:01:51): So that’s a great question. It basically means that I support mainly children who have challenges in the pragmatic language area with social communication. So this can be basically young children who are having difficulty in their preschool setting, who are, , maybe having difficulty picking up cues following routines. And then older children sometimes need support navigating kind of the nuances of social interactions as they get older. But my job is really to support them with kind of everything involving social communication. So that’s both non-verbal and verbal
Frances Shefter: (00:02:46): And that’s a pragmatic language. I know a lot of people associate pragmatics with children on the spectrum, but do kids have to have a diagnosis in order for you to assist them?
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:02:57): No, not at all. So I would say that most of the children I work with are either neuro diverse or they’re kind of in the process of getting a diagnosis. But there are many kids out there who especially, post pandemic who haven’t had a lot of the experiences that we all traditionally have had and so kind of, they’re their ability to kind of experience all of the interactions that we would like them to have, hasn’t been as robust as we would like. And so we’re seeing some kids who maybe wouldn’t necessarily fall into the category of neuro diverse needing some support with that social communication. And I think, , sometimes it’s also not necessarily autism, it might be ADHD, sometimes anxiety gets in the way, right? Like if we think about, if we’re in a situation where we’re feeling anxious, we’re not really as available to picking up on these social cues and also to using some of the skills that we already have. So, what I find is, sometimes I’ll go in one setting with a child and they’ll be really available to using all of these pragmatic language skills. But in another setting, they might present just completely differently and they just aren’t available when they might be stuck on one thing in the environment that might be making them anxious and it’s interfering enough that they’re not picking up on, , what’s happening around them and, and really processing what’s happening. It also depends on, , the number of, of Children and environment around them, the stimuli, certain stimuli affects every child differently. Fo some kids visual stimuli might interfere for other kids auditory stimuli might interfere even just like, internally that interception piece how they’re feeling on the inside. Right? Like, are they able, may, they might not feel in that moment that they’re hungry? But they’re really lacking kind of the internal resources because they haven’t eaten in several hours that something like that might be interfering with their ability to communicate with other people.
Frances Shefter: (00:05:46): right? You know, it’s so interesting because you say, like the anxiety and I had brought up the, , spectrum ASD kids and, and the ADHD and those three often times are together. I wind up with kids that have all three and it’s, to me, I’m like, is it, or is it just… I have such an issue with labels sometimes because it’s just… like, not, not necessarily… like, as you said, you don’t need a label. If you’re struggling, let’s find why you’re struggling and help with that issue. So I know you were saying, like you work with the whole family and in different settings, like, how does that work? What does that look like?
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:06:27): It’s a great question. It really truthfully, it depends on every family. So I have some families who I work with. Well, let me backtrack a little bit. And the reason why I say that I work with the whole family is because family dynamics are so important. And, and we have to understand the big picture to actually really understand what’s happening with the child. And parents are stressed, children are stressed and this isn’t about the pandemic, this is kind of historically, I think you see this kind of this dynamic where like one person in the house is having a challenge and then it really is kind of going through the entire household is going through. There might be a sibling involved, maybe a sibling is having a hard time, maybe even a grandparent is going through something and then the parent is stressed and then it just kids are very in tune with our kind of emotions and sometimes look, we’re human, right? Like we can’…, especially with young Children, it’s like sometimes they might know something is a little off, but especially the kids who are kind of struggling with that emotional regulation to begin with and they have those challenges, underlying challenges they might kind of pick up saying pick up on things that are kind of off with a parent, but also they might not understand why and really be able to kind of connect all the dots and then it becomes even more challenging for that child because they’re kind of feeling a little bit deregulated because the parents a little bit deregulated. Sometimes it’s even having nothing to do with the child. Right. Like the parent might be going something at work and then, and then they’re a little stressed at home and then that’s impacting the child. There are all sorts of things. And I think as practitioners, it’s really important that we understand the big picture of what’s happening at home and also what’s happening just generally in all environments, I would say kind of picking up on the details but making sure that we understand the big picture too.
Frances Shefter: (00:08:57): The first thing that came to my mind when we were talking about that is when I was a teacher and sometimes the teacher would be talking, like, why is this kid like that? And then the parent would walk in and we’re like, oh, that’s why. And it’s just not that it’s bad or anything but like, that’s the role models they have. And if this is the way your parent is acting, then that’s the only way how to act. And the other thing is just that the kids know what’s going on. And, and I’d like to say, like any intellectual level, like when I used to teach, I taught, kids that didn’t interact that they were, , below 40 in the IQ. And… but you, like, I had one, that one time we were at the emergency room again because she had a seizure and the doctors were amazed because when I walked into the room how the child, they saw a difference in the child. And so it’s, does she cognitively know what’s going on around her? No, but she instinctively, her body feel energy and felt the calming of me in the room.
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:10:00): Yeah, I think… and that’s, that’s just a huge piece of what of my work with families is making sure that everyone one understands the child’s strengths and challenges and also their own. A lot of the work that I do with parents is parent through parent coaching it might be this way virtually just talking through challenges at home and talking about strategies and then trying out a strategy and then coming back together and kind of going through the motions of, well, this worked in the morning, but it didn’t work in the afternoon. This worked on this day. It didn’t work on that day and how can we kind of tweak it a little bit and then try it again. Making sure that the parents are using all of the strategies that we’ve been working on, for example, if I’m working directly with the child, making sure the parents are involved and, and coaching them honestly in real time is really helpful. looking at the whole family, sometimes the sibling is in the sessions with us. Sometimes I’m supporting the the dynamic, the challenges between the siblings in real time, I think that that can be really, really effective. And talking through with parents ways to, to support all of the people in the household, not just necessarily that one child that they’re looking for the support with. Yeah, so that whole family piece is really important and helping parents really understand why they need to put on their oxygen masks first. Helping them kind of guiding them to and, and educating them. and, and helping them understand that, , they need to be calm, they need to be in a good place before using the strategies. But I it’s something that we need to make sure that kind of everybody is on the same page and that’s a lot of the collaborative work that I do with families and outside practitioners.
Frances Shefter: (00:12:28): It’s just, , because it does matter with the whole family and especially with the siblings because I know the dynamics are so different with the siblings. And so you were saying that you do different sessions and when you’re working with a child or working with the family, like, what does that look like? Do you work directly with the child? Do you work with the whole family? Is it a mix match? How does it work?
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:12:51): That’s a great question. So as I said earlier, it really depends on the child and the family. Ideally I prefer to have the parents involved in the session with us or because, and kind of is similar with, with teachers too. If, if the parent is there during the session with us, I can model these strategies for them in real time and then they can practice them with me and then I can coach them through it if we’re on a virtual meeting like this and I’m relay the information to them. It’s not nearly as productive or empowering to parents. I think when they can see in real time, what I’m doing and I can also give them scripts which I can do this way too. But it’s, it’s really important, really, really important.
Frances Shefter: (00:13:56): It’s interesting you say that because like I know as a parent myself, like yes, I could read a book and I could sit and watch a video and stuff but I mentally know what I need to be doing but when you’re in the heat of the moment and something’s going on, it’s hard to remember what’s going on. Like the child doesn’t think what’s going on if there’s too much stimuli going on. I see that it, it’s showing them how to do it. I know we’re having feedback.I know, I’m sorry, I, apparently there’s feedback that I don’t hear. So I don’t know if it’s on my end or not.
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:14:35): I, I heard it too. I t seems to actually be really improving. I’m not sure why.
Frances Shefter: (00:14:41): Ok, because I turned off my air and I thought that might be it.
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:14:47): My air is not enough.
Frances Shefter: (00:14:49): I don’t know, we’ll just keep on going.
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:14:52): Maybe I’ll try turning off my headphones and just going…
Frances Shefter: (00:14:56): I don’t hear it. So it might be on my end.
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:14:58): Yeah, I hear it too. So maybe, maybe I’ll, maybe I’ll try to. Oh, I see what you’re saying. You don’t hear it. Let me, let me try. Let me just turn them off.
Frances Shefter: (00:15:12): Is that better?
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:15:24): No, I still hear it. No, I still hear it unfortunately. Oh no, it’s gone. Ok. But now I can’t hear you.
Frances Shefter: (00:15:49): Ok.
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:15:50): Ok. No. Yes, I think we’re, is that better? I don’t hear it anymore.
Frances Shefter: (00:15:55): Ok. Good. Ok. Ok. There we go, no big deal. Sorry, it’s the reality of life, right? Technology today. , so we were talking about like what…
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:16:06): I lost you again.
Frances Shefter: (00:16:10): Yeah. Are you there? Can you hear me?
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:16:26): How do we do?
Frances Shefter: (00:16:27): OK, I can hear you. Can you hear me? I can’t hear you. Uh oh no,
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:16:27): There we go. Apologies
Frances Shefter: (00:16:29): Thank you for that. Yeah, thank you. It’s so funny because it’s just like, like you were saying with the pandemic and stuff and you would think we were through all this but it’s life and it’s just like thinking this through, it reminds me of what kids go through in the communication because it’s something different going on and like, oh no, wait a minute, I’m not used to this coming at me. How do I fix it? What do I do? So how do you help kids with, with that? With like putting it into different scenarios and using the skills?
Naomi Rubinstein (00:17:00): That’s a really great question. So for a lot of the kids I work with, They need that direct that explicit instruction, one on one first. And when they’re ready, when they’re available, I support them to generalize it in all settings. So what that would look like would be this. So let’s say I have a child who’s struggling with maybe self-regulation or particularly cognitive flexibility, which comes up with, I would say almost all of my clients practicing being flexible, one on one with me and then meeting with the other practitioners on the team, particularly teachers in the administration at whatever school they’re in and kind of making sure that we’re all on the same page in terms of the language, we’re using the prompts, the queuing, et cetera and then going into the classroom or maybe going onto the playground with them or going to a play date with the child and really pushing into the setting so that I can support the child in real time. Because what I find is that a child can work with a practitioner once or twice a week, right? And they can practice these skills and you see the improvement in this vacuum. But when they get into these other settings, like school, a birthday party, right? Like that’s like the most challenging place, family vacations, wherever they have struggled to really utilize all these skills because of the things we talked about in the beginning of our conversation, right? Like anxiety, overstimulation or sometimes like even almost being under responsive to stimuli. So it’s important that we make sure that we help them generalize. And so this, it’s kind of like you wanna kind of come at it from a lot of different angles. One, it’s me making sure that I’m regularly communicating with parents and the school and outside practitioners and when the child is available to it, kind of slowly pushing into different scenarios. For example, one on one play date would probably be the next step because it’s just that child and one other with a peer then you kind of can go into the school or you might… I have kids I work with who really struggle on the playground because it’s so unstructured and it, and, and they’re just that kind of a lot of the time for some kids when they have trouble, they might have trouble with like initiating, they may have trouble with organizing and planning and then executing or even responding to peers on the playground or in school. And we wanna make sure that we’re there to model for the kids too. And really, I do a lot of thinking aloud because it’s so… this goes back to my graduate work and education as a teacher and I know I’m sure you can relate to this Frances is that you’re thinking aloud and modeling during those kind of mini lessons. Right. Well, I do that in real time. I mean, I do it in one on one, , explicit instruction. But I might, like, let’s say I have a child and we’re in the classroom and, , the child kind of instinctively grabs a toy from a peer instead of asking. And I… we see that the, the peer gets upset and so I might model and think aloud for the child. Oh, I see that Johnny has a frown on his face. I think that means that he’s not happy that you took the toy out of his hand. I can see you want that toy. That’s ok. When I want a toy, I ask my friend Johnny, may I please have a turn? And what I usually do depending on the child is, I’ll wait. I give a lot of wait time. A lot of my friends need a lot of wait time and I give them an opportunity to kind of use that… the script that I’ve given them and sometimes that’s not enough. Sometimes I, they need a prompt. You can say, may I have a turn? Then you wait, right? Do they ask you? Wait? And then if they don’t, I just model it, Johnny, may I have a turn? And then there’s kind of that reflection piece after Johnny gives the toy? Oh, I asked Johnny. So he had a picture in my head that he wanted a toy and then he could give it to me and look, that’s a lot of language right there. So, , please know that’s not necessarily the strategy I would use for every child because some of my kids…I would lose because it was just too much language. But that’s just an example of how I’m working with kids in the classroom because a lot of kids, they really do need that and look, the reality is that teachers work very, very hard, but many of them have many kids in their classrooms. My client is typically not the only child. Neurotypical kids have challenges too. Everybody has a challenge, right? Teachers are navigating various strengths and challenges in differentiating instruction in the classroom and they might not always be able to meet the needs of every child in that moment, right? They might be over on the other side of the room withIsabelle, , because she’s upset because a friend took her toy or whatever it is. So I think, , a lot of my work with teachers also has to be really thoughtful because I have to really problem solve with them to create strategies that are going to be practical for them. It’s easy for me to come into a classroom and say, “oh, I think I think Josie needs this, this and this and this” is what, like that’s probably not, that’s just not realistic. , teachers need to, you, , you, you to kind of take a step back and really think carefully about the strategies that you’re giving them because they’re, they need to be practical for them. And I also think, part of my job is helping parents understand the realities of whatever educational setting their child is in, is the setting really going to be able to provide what your child needs or do they need a more specialized setting? For some of my kids, they thrive in a regular education setting with a certain amount of support and that the school is able to give that or, if they’re not, , there are enough specialists kind of coming in and, and everyone’s just kind of on board and open to strategies and for others, unfortunately, that setting is not appropriate and we need to, to really think about a more specialized setting or, or a setting that has maybe a better teacher student ratio. So that the child just is more available because the setting doesn’t have as much stimuli that’s overwhelming them. But, but generalizing, generalizing the skills I would say is the hardest part. And I think, also making sure that we are careful about not giving too much support and not giving too little support. And when we’re giving a certain amount of support, when we release it, we release it very carefully and very slowly. The idea is that we want a child to be as independent as possible and whatever setting they’re in. I’m always looking for ways that we can slowly release support, but we wanna do it in the right way. We want to make sure that the child feels safe and doesn’t kind of go from 0 to 60. But, yes, it, it really does look different for every child in terms of that generalization because some schools are really open to it. I would say most schools are really open to it. I mean, certainly we’re limited, , I live in North Potomac Maryland. So I’m in Montgomery County. If I, I wanna go observe a child in Montgomery County public schools that can happen and I do that but I don’t have the same ability to work with a child and during the school day in, in Montgomery County, as I would say, in a private school.
Frances Shefter: (00:25:57): Right. Yeah. And setting makes all the difference. I have that conversation a lot with my clients because sometimes we know the general education setting is not 100% right. But we also know the special ed set, the full special ed setting isn’t right. And so where do we go from there? And it’s challenging. But it’s, I love that you do the modeling because thinking back to the teacher days or just with my own Children don’t grab a toy, you need to ask, telling a child to do that… obviously. Ok, what does that mean? And then the child has a process where you say like, oh, I see now that child “A” is upset because you took their toy that it’s just, it’s teaching them to see it and not just “don’t do that” it’s teaching them the why.
Naomi Rubinstein (00:26:42): Those cognitive strategies for the kid. Look, there are some kids who need, I would say more scripts than others. But when you have a child who’s available to the cognitive strategies. Getting them to actually think about think things through. So for example, like a cognitive cue might be “I wonder if Johnny wants a turn?” And then the child actually needs to think. Huh? Does Johnny need a turn and then they have to organize and plan it, right? Ok. If Johnny wants a turn, , then I need to ask them, ok, this is what I need to say and then, I need to be able also to respond to what Johnny says. So it migh be multiple levels of, of kind of cognitive strategies, right? Like a strate, , cognitive prompt for asking, then it may be a cognitive prompt for. Oh, what was, what was Johnny’s answer? Getting them to think? Oh, did Johnny answer? Oh, let me check in and , and see some kids, , again, it’s kind of this kind of progression of skills, some kids are ready for that. Other kids might need me to point out. Oh, , I didn’t hear Johnny’s answer. I’m wondering if he heard me, let me ask him, “Johnny, did you hear my question? “ I just think, , and again, it kind of also kind of bringing it back to the parents when we do that when I model for parents. I think it’s just so empowering and that’s my goal. I want parents to feel empowered. I want them to feel like when they’re on the playground with their child, they don’t need me there, they know what to do or they have just and I always say to parents like, look, you’re not always gonna have the answer. You might try attend to strategies and none of them work and like, remember like you’re human, your kids are human. Like sometimes you’re just gonna have a day, you’re just gonna have a minute, you’re just gonna have an hour and in those moments you might have to gently say to your child. “Ok, I’m, I see you’re really upset right now and we’re gonna leave, I’m going to pick you up and I’m gonna carry you to the car” And that’s it. , they’re just, it’s, they’re having, they’re having a hard time and they’re communicating a message to us that, that they just can’t be in that setting anymore. And that’s ok. , because I know, look as a parent…
Frances Shefter: (00:29:11): I like that because it’s done in a gentle way instead of, “That’s it, you don’t know how to behave or leaving.”
Naomi Rubinstein (00:29:15): Yeah. I mean, I think, like, I think kids need to know what’s going to happen, especially the kids I work with and what they might not hear… If they’re, the, the emotional side of their brain is flooded. They’re, they’re not, they might not hear us but we at least need to try and let them know like, ok, or like, even like, using a whisper voice. I always tell my parents, , it’s like being… if you’re a teacher in a class of 30 kids and, , everyone’s noisy and then you’ll see here some teachers kind of like, start to get louder and louder. I always tell teachers if you could just try to get quieter and quieter and quieter and dim the lights and just continue to talk like this. The kids are gonna say think, oh, the teacher’s trying to talk about, we can’t hear her so we need to get quiet. Right. Same thing with our voice. We can use our voice to actually calm the brain. We know that. So using like this whisper voice, I mean, it may, it may sound really silly, but we’re actually helping to calm our children. And quite frankly for some parents and look, everybody’s neurological system is different for me as a parent. If I start to whisper, I get calmer.
Frances Shefter: (00:30:24): Yep.
Naomi Rubinstein (00:30:25): So it’s actually a strategy, not just for the child, but also for the parent to calm themselves down. And again, I also feel like it’s empowering. One thing we haven’t had a chance to talk about yet is that I’m a parent of two neurodivergent teenage boys and I love my kids and, we have been through years of lots of wonderful things and some challenges. And so my approach with families is probably quite different than, it would be otherwise.
Frances Shefter: (00:31:05): Yeah, and it’s, I mean, being a parent of a child that has yes, no diverse, whatever it is, it’s such a huge difference. And I, I feel like for me, at least I can relate to the parents more and can be more empathetic and be like, I get it. I understand where you are and like, let’s see where we are now and how can we get to the next stage and what do we need to do? And the other thing I was thinking about is that, and I think I did a post on this the other day is that when a child elevates, they really need us to come down because if we go up, they’re going to go up, then we’re gonna, and then what happened? And I know I don’t feel good after that. So I’m sure my child doesn’t. So it’s kind of like, wait, let’s bring it back down and model that we can be upset and frustrated and not screaming now.
Naomi Rubinstein (00:31:58): And I think that is one of the hardest things as a parent. I mean, to be honest with you, sometimes I say to parents, like if you’re in a situation that’s safe for your child and you are having a hard time calming down, the best thing to do is model it right? Like I’m feeling really angry right now. So I need a break. Our Children… we want our kids to self advocate, which is, a goal for most of the kids I work with is that self advocacy goal. So let’s advocate for ourselves in front of our Children and let them know what is the appropriate thing to do in those moments. You’re feeling really stressed instead of raising your voice, let them know you need a break. It might not work for every situation. You might not be in a setting that’s safe for your child and you can just walk away. , if you have a really young child, you might not just be able to walk away even in your home. But if you have an older child just saying, “You know what I am feeling really, really tense right now, I’m gonna set a timer for two minutes and I’m just gonna go sit down and I’m gonna put on my headphones and I’m gonna listen to my music…” or whatever way helps you stay calm for some. For some parents, we are, we know that for example, there might be a calming strategy that we want our kids to use and we know it’s, it’s been, , beneficial for them and it really works. So in those moments of frustration, you might use it to try to model that strategy that you want your to, to learn. Well, it might be a strategy of taking a deep breath. It might be a strategy of squeezing like their favorite stuffy. So you literally might get up and pick up a stuffy and say, “oh I just really, I’m gonna squeeze my stuffy and I’m just gonna gonna just squeeze it so tight and I’m gonna set this timer and I’m just gonna keep squeezing my to stuffy” And modeling it, like, like kind of that thinking aloud again, like, oh, , oh my timer went off. But what, I’m gonna check in with my body. I don’t, my body does not feel calm. I think I need to set it for one more minute. And I just think that also when I, when we have those moments with our kids, for many of the kids, I work with their, their emotional side of their brain is, is getting flooded and they’re not available to listening to language. And so, it might just be sitting quietly for a few minutes and just taking deep breaths or whatever it is. For some kids, obviously taking deep breaths can actually heighten their emotions for others, it can, it can calm them. but whatever it is that works for their child. Sitting quietly waiting it out, we know that kind of anxiety in these situations, kind of like, go in waves and we know that if we even just sit there and wait, eventually they will calm down. And making sure again that we… if we’re just kind of sitting there quietly, that can be a calming strategy for us. And then once everyone’s calm, then you can have a conversation. Name it to tame it or whatever, , whatever, whatever strategy, whatever strategy, best practice strategy you want to use with your child. getting yourself calm first is, is hard and, and, and what I mean? It’s important. But I also think like, sometimes you might, it might not work. And like, validating that for parents and normalizing that. Like, look last week when you got really upset and you just couldn’t calm down. Like we’ve all been through that. Every parent goes through that. Like, of course, you, of course, it was hard, of course, it was hard because it is hard. And when your child is screaming at you or really just regulated, it’s really anxiety for us as parents, especially when, if you’re in a public place or even if you’re not, maybe it’s just the two of you in your house and like, maybe, your bucket got really full because you had a really challenging work day and you walked in the door and your child was screaming and you didn’t have a chance, to kind of, empty your bucket and, calm yourself down before you got into the house. So you just didn’t have the bandwidth to manage it. I think, I think parents need to feel like it’s safe to make mistakes, and, and we have to let our kids know it’s safe to make mistakes too.
Frances Shefter: (00:36:43): And that’s right. And you saying that it’s so true because one of the things I’ve been working on it’s like, look, hey, I’m hot head also. I’m a hothead. I know it. I lose my temper way more than I’d like to. , but the other thing I do is I’ll come back and be like, what mommy was wrong, mommy got upset and I said no because of this reason. But what, once I’ve thought it through, I think it’s ok. Let’s try a different way. And so it’s showing the child that just because you make a big mistake doesn’t mean it’s the end of the world doesn’t mean you’re a bad person. It’s, you made a mistake and now you’re gonna go back and, and fix it in a way that you’ve had,
Naomi Rubinstein (00:37:20): I think, and I think that kind of repair work also is really important. I, I think having a parent come to a child admitting a mistake, apologizing really, really normalizes mistakes and lets kids know it’s safe. And you’re also repairing, repairing that moment. The repair is really important for the child. I think back to my graduate work in New York and education and I think about how I was taught that the teacher is not always like the teacher should not be on a pedestal. The teacher doesn’t have all of the answers or all the information. Parents learn from their kids every day. I know I do, and it’s funny sometimes I’ll have moments with my kids, at the moment with my 16 year old just because he’s a little bit older, , I’ll have modeled a million different kind of thoughts of empathy. And then in that, in that moment when I’m not being empath, , empathetic, he’ll call me on it, “Like mom…” and I’ll say like, “Yeah, you’re right. I’m I’m learning from you, I’m learning from you.” The kids, kids should not feel like their parents have all the answers because they don’t, I know I don’t. and, and I also think, and again, it’s so it’s not, it’s about the kids, but it’s also about letting parents know like it’s ok if you don’t have all the answers, it’s ok to ask for help, it’s ok to, to, to make mistakes.
Frances Shefter: (00:39:01): So and to ask for support that I’ve talked about that a few times is that the parents asking for help, like calling somebody like you calling an advocate, an attorney other people that can give support is teaching the child that your child doesn’t have to do it all alone either. We as parents, we can’t do it all alone. It takes, it takes a village and it’s OK to need that village. And I think it’s great modeling for our kids and like we were talking about like, we’ve been talking about developmentally in different stages. Like this isn’t something like it. Can you like, teach the children like, OK, we’re gonna, six months or a year and then we’re good, we’re separated or is this like a long term developmental thing that you need to work with the families?
Naomi Rubinstein (00:39:47): It really depends, I have families. I work with, sometimes just very briefly, I might go and then do I might be referred by a school and I might… lately… maybe the school has shared some concerns with the parents and I go and observe, this usually happens in the younger kids where I’ll go in and observe in the classroom and then I’ll do a home visit and then I’ll have a parent meeting when we’ll talk about the observations. And sometimes it’s me doing that kind of navigation with them because they need the support kind of figuring out what’s the next step. So for some kids, it’s… for some families, I might be working with them for a short time of just like a month where I’m just helping them navigate kind of the next steps. Maybe I’m just referring them to you an OT for an eval and then they just need ot, , like that does happen. I wouldn’t say it’s, it’s common. , but it definitely happens. And for others it’s kind of supporting them through, through the years, , sometimes it’s, , working with a family when the child is in preschool and then helping them transition to kindergarten, either at a private school or a public school, helping them navigate that, helping them get an IFSP or an IEP or a 504. And, working maybe more on the school side of things. And then for others, it’s kind of planting seeds for like… I am always trying to take the long term approach and thinking ahead, ok, your child is, is this age now in one or two years, they’re going to be expected to do this. What are the things we need to work on now to kind of create that foundation so that they’re ready for that next step? Again, that planting seeds, I think is really important. I think even when a child isn’t necessarily ready for something we can start to plant seeds. Whether it’s, I’m working with one child, using a social thinking strategy of expected and unexpected behavior of the child isn’t ready yet. And again yet, I think is the important word for some of the higher level skills, but making sure that we’re planting the seeds with certain things now so that when they are ready,maybe, maybe they weren’t showing kind of a lot of engagement with certain things at, or maybe they aren’t showing certain engagement with certain things now. But I find that kids who don’t look like they’re listening are listening. So, I’m sure you have a lot of amilies you represent who have kiddos who maybe they’re not making eye contact. But I bet they’re getting a lot of the information you’re giving. So I think it’s really, really important to plant the seeds while making sure that you’re also not overwhelming them with whatever it is you’re trying to communicate.
Frances Shefter: (00:43:01): Yeah, that’s so true. So why, like, what should parents look for? Like if they’re saying they know something’s quirky about their child or this or that? Like, are there certain things that parents should look for to know? Like, oh, wait a minute, I need to reach out to Naomi because we need help.
Naomi Rubinstein (00:43:19): It’s a really good question. It’s really hard to answer frankly because I think every child is so different. But I would say that, the majority of kiddos who I see do struggle with that cognitive flexibility, the ability to shift from one thing to another. If they’re having… especially with the younger kids, if they’re not able to stick with something. And if they’re kind of kind of flitting from one activity to another, if they’re, if every kind of little deal is a big deal, if they’re having difficulty picking up on those social cues… Joint attention is a big one at a young age when we, we know when, for those listening, who don’t know what that means. It’s, , when two or more people are, focused on an object or a person or like that kind of shared enjoyment.I think it’s, it’s tricky. I think that, , especially parents who just have one child and they don’t necessarily have a typically developing child first. It can be really hard and I think sometimes, , we can dismiss certain behaviors. but I think that, generally… try to partner… I say to parent, try to really try to partner with the schools when they come to you with a concern, really listen and when they go and I, I think one thing I’ve been struggling with and a lot of my colleagues have been struggling with is, when they go to the pediatricians… make sure you’re a really good reporter because the pediatricians… they’re not, obviously… we want them to focus on the developmental piece, but keep in mind that they’re on the pediatricians only seeing your child in an office once every “X” amount of months. And so it’s not a minute. And they’re not talking to the school and they’re not talking to the soccer coach and they’re not… they’re not talking to all these people in your child’s life and they’re not seeing with their own eyes, your child’s in, in different settings. So your child might do really, really well, one on one, your child might do really well with adults, right? If your child is doing really, really well with adults, but not necessarily engaging with peers. If they’re going to the playground and they prefer to play that by themselves or they’re getting really stuck on something like, oh… they and like something that might not be something that’s kind of, you would expect them to get stuck on. Maybe it’s like… and again, this doesn’t necessarily mean anything but, maybe they’re getting stuck on doing something over and over and over again. Maybe they’re getting stuck on drawing a picture over and over again or, they wanna see you do something over and over again. Now that’s very typical, right? Like little kids like repetition, they like routine. They like that kind of cause effect piece. But I would say if your gut tells you that something is just a little off or you’re kind of looking around, you’re with another child and another child is interacting in a certain way and you say to yourself, “I don’t see my child doing that or I don’t see my child imitating me. I don’t see… or they’re getting really upset, when it’s loud or they’re getting really upset with certain… in the bathtub and they don’t want to have their hair washed.” Whatever it is. Again, it doesn’t mean that we need to be super concerned about it, but talk to somebody, right, talk to a specialist. and again, you need to be a good reporter because what I find is that, when we go to the pediatrician and we fill out the M-cat, those questions are written by specialists but parents are not specialists. So sometimes I think the questions are really ambiguous and sometimes, you think you’re answering the question correctly, but when, in fact, you might not know exactly what you’re looking for as a parent. And so I would just say when in doubt, if you just feel like something’s just not what you expect… the worst thing that has happened is that you’ve wasted your time, but you haven’t wasted your time. It’s just you spent the time and you kind of feel better about it. But again, I think the reporting piece is really, really important and also listening to the people in your child’s life, like the teachers who do have that child development experience and understand typical development. being a listener and really acting on it and really being their partner is, is super, super important.
Frances Shefter: (00:48:16): Right. No. And it’s, it’s, it’s just the parent gut. I say that all the time to everybody in my network, people that I come in touch with it’s there and we need to learn how to touch it, touch it because like as you said, worst case scenario is you found out it’s nothing and that’s not a big deal. Best case scenario. Like if there is something, it’s better to start early rather than wait. Like service is early. I always say that the earlier you start the better because it just gives your child more of a fighting chance of getting where they need to be to be as good as they can be.
spk_2 (00:48:56): Right. I mean, look 90% of the synaptic connections in a child’s brain are… have developed by the time they’re four. And so, and it doesn’t mean, I mean, we know that the brain is very malleable through childhood and adulthood. But I do, I mean, I see such an enormous difference and we know, like you said, research has shown that kids, the kids who have gotten intervention before the age of three are much less likely to need intervention later. I would rather see a child be in a more specialized setting, a educational setting at a younger age so that they can thrive and be independent in a regular educational setting later. In my experience, depending on the child. Right. I would say that most of the kids who, whose parents put them in a specialized setting when they really needed it were better able to shift to a regular education setting later. Obviously, not everybody… every situation is different. But I would say that’s really a pattern that I see. Unfortunately, people who… parents sometimes are really, really focused on being in a mainstream educational setting and look that is the goal, right?
Frances Shefter: (00:50:14): Sometimes, right? If it’s appropriate.
Naomi Rubinstein (00:50:16): Right. If it’s appropriate, but that’s the, that’s the key, right? As you said, if it’s appropriate, I and I, I just think like when we just take a step back, , think about what’s really best for our child right now and nothing is permanent. I say, I tell parents, like, sometimes you’re not like they want answers, they want to know like they want a crystal ball. If I put my child in the school, are they gonna thrive? I don’t know, sometimes like there’s no way to know. Sometimes you have to make the leap and actually put your child in the setting to know. But I will say, I always try to tell parents like nothing is permanent. You’re the parent, you get to choose if you make a choice. And you find after you have really given a time that it is not the best environment for your child. You are in charge, you get to make the choice to, to pull your child down, move your child, whatever it is, obviously, , sometimes financial resources get in the way. And kind of going back to the conversation we had earlier about my lens of, of a, of a parent of two neurodivergent kids. it is different and so I try to really think about my experience as a parent, which is going to be diff different from my, my client’s experience. But at the same time, I think many of us kind of share the same… certain experiences in terms of… a lot of parents, they, they go, they, they want support for their child and they know it’s going to automatically be much more expensive than kind of just a support for a neuro typical child. It just, it just is. And so I always just try to be really, really sensitive to kind of not just kind of emotionally what’s going on, but also financially what’s going on. That has a huge impact on a, on a parent, so a lot of parents, most parents can’t give their child every single intervention that they want to, with the exact intervention as they want to because it’s simply just not within their budget and they don’t have the resources for it. So I really do try to work with families. I never want finances to prevent them from working with me. And if I can’t support them then I will work very hard to make sure that I refer them to someone who can. , and that’s not just financially just in general. I mean, I, I think it’s so important for us as practitioners to have that integrity. I, I never want a client to feel like I’m pushing them to do something because it’s my in my … favor of my business. That’s, that’s just, that’s not gonna fly with me.
Frances Shefter: (00:53:16): And I do this, , I do the same thing like, offer strategy sessions and I tell parents, like sometimes I will tell you not to hire me, although I can get a perfect IEP in place. The resources are better spelled going, hiring a dyslexic coach or going into hiring an executive functioning person and like integrity is so important to make sure like we get it. We’re parents, we have limited resources and let’s use them wisely so that we get our children what they need.
Naomi Rubinstein (00:53:45): Yeah. And it’s hard. Part of my job also is to help my families prioritize what the interventions are and sometimes it is like, look right now, I, I had someone call me recently right now… it, so I said to them it sounds like you have a really good team in place. Like, at some point, maybe, maybe it will work together and maybe not. And that’s ok… and it also has to be, this is a different topic, but it also has to be a good match, right? Like I have to feel like I can help your child and if, if, if your child doesn’t feel connected to me for whatever the reason, that’s ok, I’m gonna refer them out. I’ve done it before. I mean, it doesn’t happen often but I do it because…, or if I feel like, ‘ve utilized the skills that I have and I just feel like for whatever reason, the strategies I’m using, , I’ve, I’m, I’ve exhausted what I think is, is appropriate and I just think we need a different lens. I’m gonna send you elsewhere. It doesn’t always… people always don’t want, always want to hear it right. They want to know that like, well, my child really likes working with you. Why can’t, well, because I just, I think that they can be making more progress somewhere else and they need a different approach. They might need a mental health care provider and, that’s what they need. I think staying in my lane is really important. I’m really, really transparent with parents when they call me about, , what it is. I do and what it is. I don’t do. I can support a lot of things like emotional modulation and self regulation. But I also sometimes need to feel like I’m getting guidance from a mental health care practitioner. I think that’s super, super important to have those really candid conversations with parents, especially in a time when it’s really hard to get in with, with good people in the mental health care field. And there are long wait lists and I know parents are just desperate to get their kid in. But if I feel like that’s what they need, that’s what they need. So yeah, that transparency and the integrity to me is really important.
Frances Shefter: (00:55:57): So how do parents get in touch with you? Like if they say, ok, my gut is telling me I need to call Naomi, what should they do? How should they contact you?
Naomi Rubinstein (00:56:05): So they can either email me, do you want me to send my email or are you gonna, well…
Frances Shefter: (00:56:9): we’ll have it, it’ll be in the show notes below but you can, yeah,
Naomi Rubinstein (00:56:13): So they can either email me or they can give me a call. I I generally get back to people within 24 hours, the latest 48 hours. And then , we, we sit down and I… some people are, are, are limit like, like to limit their kind of free consultations. I really try not to do that because I feel like that initial call is really, really important. It gives the parent an opportunity to get to know who I am and how I, how my practice works. And also for me to get a feel for the child and family strengths and challenges to, to think about. Am I the right person or might they be better or serve with somebody else? So that initial phone call or that email is the best way to get in touch with me.
Frances Shefter: (00:57:02): Perfect. Awesome. This has been so wonderful, Naomi, thank you so much for being a guest on my show and I hope the listeners found it as valuable as I did. I love, that’s one of the things I love about the show is I always learn something new.
Naomi Rubinstein (00:57:16): I really appreciate you having me and I just for me, I love talking to other people in the field. I feel like all of us just want to do what’s best for families and children. And it’s always really fun for me to talk to people like you. So thank you so much for having me.
VOICEOVER (00:57:34): You’ve been listening to Stress-free IEP® with your host, Frances Shefter. Remember you do not need to do it. All alone, you can reach Frances through ShefterLaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments and sharing the show with others through youtube, linkedin Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Podcast, Stitcher, and more.
Stress-Free IEP® with Frances Shefter and Naomi Rubinstein
In this episode of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter speaks with Naomi Rubinstein, Family Educator and Social Learning Specialist in the Baltimore, Maryland area.
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Stress-Free IEP®:
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP® experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
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FULL TRANSCRIPT:
VOICEOVER (00:00:02): Welcome to Stress-Free IEP®. You do not need to do it all alone with your host, Frances Shefter, Principal of Shefter Law. You can get more details and catch prior episodes at www.Shefterlaw.com. The Stress-Free IEP® video podcast is also posted on youtube and linkedin and you can listen to episodes through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcast, Stitcher and more. Now, here’s the host of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter.
Frances Shefter: (00:00:40): Hello, everyone and welcome to the show. I am hoping we’re not going to have issues because it looks like at the intro, there are a couple of glitches, but hopefully we’re gonna be good for today. Today’s special guest is Naomi Rubenstein, who is a family educator and social learning specialist and she’s in the Baltimore, Maryland area. So Naomi, please introduce yourself a little bit. Tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:01:05): Good morning. So, I have my Master’s in education and I work with children and families and I’ve been doing it for many years, but through kind of different venues. So I started out my graduate work in New York and came down back to Maryland and have been working in a lot of different settings, private schools, public schools, and just really happy to be here today. Thank you so much for having me.
Frances Shefter: (00:01:44): Thank you. And so social learning specialist. What is that specifically? Like, what does that title mean?
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:01:51): So that’s a great question. It basically means that I support mainly children who have challenges in the pragmatic language area with social communication. So this can be basically young children who are having difficulty in their preschool setting, who are, , maybe having difficulty picking up cues following routines. And then older children sometimes need support navigating kind of the nuances of social interactions as they get older. But my job is really to support them with kind of everything involving social communication. So that’s both non-verbal and verbal
Frances Shefter: (00:02:46): And that’s a pragmatic language. I know a lot of people associate pragmatics with children on the spectrum, but do kids have to have a diagnosis in order for you to assist them?
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:02:57): No, not at all. So I would say that most of the children I work with are either neuro diverse or they’re kind of in the process of getting a diagnosis. But there are many kids out there who especially, post pandemic who haven’t had a lot of the experiences that we all traditionally have had and so kind of, they’re their ability to kind of experience all of the interactions that we would like them to have, hasn’t been as robust as we would like. And so we’re seeing some kids who maybe wouldn’t necessarily fall into the category of neuro diverse needing some support with that social communication. And I think, , sometimes it’s also not necessarily autism, it might be ADHD, sometimes anxiety gets in the way, right? Like if we think about, if we’re in a situation where we’re feeling anxious, we’re not really as available to picking up on these social cues and also to using some of the skills that we already have. So, what I find is, sometimes I’ll go in one setting with a child and they’ll be really available to using all of these pragmatic language skills. But in another setting, they might present just completely differently and they just aren’t available when they might be stuck on one thing in the environment that might be making them anxious and it’s interfering enough that they’re not picking up on, , what’s happening around them and, and really processing what’s happening. It also depends on, , the number of, of Children and environment around them, the stimuli, certain stimuli affects every child differently. Fo some kids visual stimuli might interfere for other kids auditory stimuli might interfere even just like, internally that interception piece how they’re feeling on the inside. Right? Like, are they able, may, they might not feel in that moment that they’re hungry? But they’re really lacking kind of the internal resources because they haven’t eaten in several hours that something like that might be interfering with their ability to communicate with other people.
Frances Shefter: (00:05:46): right? You know, it’s so interesting because you say, like the anxiety and I had brought up the, , spectrum ASD kids and, and the ADHD and those three often times are together. I wind up with kids that have all three and it’s, to me, I’m like, is it, or is it just… I have such an issue with labels sometimes because it’s just… like, not, not necessarily… like, as you said, you don’t need a label. If you’re struggling, let’s find why you’re struggling and help with that issue. So I know you were saying, like you work with the whole family and in different settings, like, how does that work? What does that look like?
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:06:27): It’s a great question. It really truthfully, it depends on every family. So I have some families who I work with. Well, let me backtrack a little bit. And the reason why I say that I work with the whole family is because family dynamics are so important. And, and we have to understand the big picture to actually really understand what’s happening with the child. And parents are stressed, children are stressed and this isn’t about the pandemic, this is kind of historically, I think you see this kind of this dynamic where like one person in the house is having a challenge and then it really is kind of going through the entire household is going through. There might be a sibling involved, maybe a sibling is having a hard time, maybe even a grandparent is going through something and then the parent is stressed and then it just kids are very in tune with our kind of emotions and sometimes look, we’re human, right? Like we can’…, especially with young Children, it’s like sometimes they might know something is a little off, but especially the kids who are kind of struggling with that emotional regulation to begin with and they have those challenges, underlying challenges they might kind of pick up saying pick up on things that are kind of off with a parent, but also they might not understand why and really be able to kind of connect all the dots and then it becomes even more challenging for that child because they’re kind of feeling a little bit deregulated because the parents a little bit deregulated. Sometimes it’s even having nothing to do with the child. Right. Like the parent might be going something at work and then, and then they’re a little stressed at home and then that’s impacting the child. There are all sorts of things. And I think as practitioners, it’s really important that we understand the big picture of what’s happening at home and also what’s happening just generally in all environments, I would say kind of picking up on the details but making sure that we understand the big picture too.
Frances Shefter: (00:08:57): The first thing that came to my mind when we were talking about that is when I was a teacher and sometimes the teacher would be talking, like, why is this kid like that? And then the parent would walk in and we’re like, oh, that’s why. And it’s just not that it’s bad or anything but like, that’s the role models they have. And if this is the way your parent is acting, then that’s the only way how to act. And the other thing is just that the kids know what’s going on. And, and I’d like to say, like any intellectual level, like when I used to teach, I taught, kids that didn’t interact that they were, , below 40 in the IQ. And… but you, like, I had one, that one time we were at the emergency room again because she had a seizure and the doctors were amazed because when I walked into the room how the child, they saw a difference in the child. And so it’s, does she cognitively know what’s going on around her? No, but she instinctively, her body feel energy and felt the calming of me in the room.
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:10:00): Yeah, I think… and that’s, that’s just a huge piece of what of my work with families is making sure that everyone one understands the child’s strengths and challenges and also their own. A lot of the work that I do with parents is parent through parent coaching it might be this way virtually just talking through challenges at home and talking about strategies and then trying out a strategy and then coming back together and kind of going through the motions of, well, this worked in the morning, but it didn’t work in the afternoon. This worked on this day. It didn’t work on that day and how can we kind of tweak it a little bit and then try it again. Making sure that the parents are using all of the strategies that we’ve been working on, for example, if I’m working directly with the child, making sure the parents are involved and, and coaching them honestly in real time is really helpful. looking at the whole family, sometimes the sibling is in the sessions with us. Sometimes I’m supporting the the dynamic, the challenges between the siblings in real time, I think that that can be really, really effective. And talking through with parents ways to, to support all of the people in the household, not just necessarily that one child that they’re looking for the support with. Yeah, so that whole family piece is really important and helping parents really understand why they need to put on their oxygen masks first. Helping them kind of guiding them to and, and educating them. and, and helping them understand that, , they need to be calm, they need to be in a good place before using the strategies. But I it’s something that we need to make sure that kind of everybody is on the same page and that’s a lot of the collaborative work that I do with families and outside practitioners.
Frances Shefter: (00:12:28): It’s just, , because it does matter with the whole family and especially with the siblings because I know the dynamics are so different with the siblings. And so you were saying that you do different sessions and when you’re working with a child or working with the family, like, what does that look like? Do you work directly with the child? Do you work with the whole family? Is it a mix match? How does it work?
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:12:51): That’s a great question. So as I said earlier, it really depends on the child and the family. Ideally I prefer to have the parents involved in the session with us or because, and kind of is similar with, with teachers too. If, if the parent is there during the session with us, I can model these strategies for them in real time and then they can practice them with me and then I can coach them through it if we’re on a virtual meeting like this and I’m relay the information to them. It’s not nearly as productive or empowering to parents. I think when they can see in real time, what I’m doing and I can also give them scripts which I can do this way too. But it’s, it’s really important, really, really important.
Frances Shefter: (00:13:56): It’s interesting you say that because like I know as a parent myself, like yes, I could read a book and I could sit and watch a video and stuff but I mentally know what I need to be doing but when you’re in the heat of the moment and something’s going on, it’s hard to remember what’s going on. Like the child doesn’t think what’s going on if there’s too much stimuli going on. I see that it, it’s showing them how to do it. I know we’re having feedback.I know, I’m sorry, I, apparently there’s feedback that I don’t hear. So I don’t know if it’s on my end or not.
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:14:35): I, I heard it too. I t seems to actually be really improving. I’m not sure why.
Frances Shefter: (00:14:41): Ok, because I turned off my air and I thought that might be it.
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:14:47): My air is not enough.
Frances Shefter: (00:14:49): I don’t know, we’ll just keep on going.
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:14:52): Maybe I’ll try turning off my headphones and just going…
Frances Shefter: (00:14:56): I don’t hear it. So it might be on my end.
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:14:58): Yeah, I hear it too. So maybe, maybe I’ll, maybe I’ll try to. Oh, I see what you’re saying. You don’t hear it. Let me, let me try. Let me just turn them off.
Frances Shefter: (00:15:12): Is that better?
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:15:24): No, I still hear it. No, I still hear it unfortunately. Oh no, it’s gone. Ok. But now I can’t hear you.
Frances Shefter: (00:15:49): Ok.
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:15:50): Ok. No. Yes, I think we’re, is that better? I don’t hear it anymore.
Frances Shefter: (00:15:55): Ok. Good. Ok. Ok. There we go, no big deal. Sorry, it’s the reality of life, right? Technology today. , so we were talking about like what…
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:16:06): I lost you again.
Frances Shefter: (00:16:10): Yeah. Are you there? Can you hear me?
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:16:26): How do we do?
Frances Shefter: (00:16:27): OK, I can hear you. Can you hear me? I can’t hear you. Uh oh no,
Naomi Rubinstein: (00:16:27): There we go. Apologies
Frances Shefter: (00:16:29): Thank you for that. Yeah, thank you. It’s so funny because it’s just like, like you were saying with the pandemic and stuff and you would think we were through all this but it’s life and it’s just like thinking this through, it reminds me of what kids go through in the communication because it’s something different going on and like, oh no, wait a minute, I’m not used to this coming at me. How do I fix it? What do I do? So how do you help kids with, with that? With like putting it into different scenarios and using the skills?
Naomi Rubinstein (00:17:00): That’s a really great question. So for a lot of the kids I work with, They need that direct that explicit instruction, one on one first. And when they’re ready, when they’re available, I support them to generalize it in all settings. So what that would look like would be this. So let’s say I have a child who’s struggling with maybe self-regulation or particularly cognitive flexibility, which comes up with, I would say almost all of my clients practicing being flexible, one on one with me and then meeting with the other practitioners on the team, particularly teachers in the administration at whatever school they’re in and kind of making sure that we’re all on the same page in terms of the language, we’re using the prompts, the queuing, et cetera and then going into the classroom or maybe going onto the playground with them or going to a play date with the child and really pushing into the setting so that I can support the child in real time. Because what I find is that a child can work with a practitioner once or twice a week, right? And they can practice these skills and you see the improvement in this vacuum. But when they get into these other settings, like school, a birthday party, right? Like that’s like the most challenging place, family vacations, wherever they have struggled to really utilize all these skills because of the things we talked about in the beginning of our conversation, right? Like anxiety, overstimulation or sometimes like even almost being under responsive to stimuli. So it’s important that we make sure that we help them generalize. And so this, it’s kind of like you wanna kind of come at it from a lot of different angles. One, it’s me making sure that I’m regularly communicating with parents and the school and outside practitioners and when the child is available to it, kind of slowly pushing into different scenarios. For example, one on one play date would probably be the next step because it’s just that child and one other with a peer then you kind of can go into the school or you might… I have kids I work with who really struggle on the playground because it’s so unstructured and it, and, and they’re just that kind of a lot of the time for some kids when they have trouble, they might have trouble with like initiating, they may have trouble with organizing and planning and then executing or even responding to peers on the playground or in school. And we wanna make sure that we’re there to model for the kids too. And really, I do a lot of thinking aloud because it’s so… this goes back to my graduate work and education as a teacher and I know I’m sure you can relate to this Frances is that you’re thinking aloud and modeling during those kind of mini lessons. Right. Well, I do that in real time. I mean, I do it in one on one, , explicit instruction. But I might, like, let’s say I have a child and we’re in the classroom and, , the child kind of instinctively grabs a toy from a peer instead of asking. And I… we see that the, the peer gets upset and so I might model and think aloud for the child. Oh, I see that Johnny has a frown on his face. I think that means that he’s not happy that you took the toy out of his hand. I can see you want that toy. That’s ok. When I want a toy, I ask my friend Johnny, may I please have a turn? And what I usually do depending on the child is, I’ll wait. I give a lot of wait time. A lot of my friends need a lot of wait time and I give them an opportunity to kind of use that… the script that I’ve given them and sometimes that’s not enough. Sometimes I, they need a prompt. You can say, may I have a turn? Then you wait, right? Do they ask you? Wait? And then if they don’t, I just model it, Johnny, may I have a turn? And then there’s kind of that reflection piece after Johnny gives the toy? Oh, I asked Johnny. So he had a picture in my head that he wanted a toy and then he could give it to me and look, that’s a lot of language right there. So, , please know that’s not necessarily the strategy I would use for every child because some of my kids…I would lose because it was just too much language. But that’s just an example of how I’m working with kids in the classroom because a lot of kids, they really do need that and look, the reality is that teachers work very, very hard, but many of them have many kids in their classrooms. My client is typically not the only child. Neurotypical kids have challenges too. Everybody has a challenge, right? Teachers are navigating various strengths and challenges in differentiating instruction in the classroom and they might not always be able to meet the needs of every child in that moment, right? They might be over on the other side of the room withIsabelle, , because she’s upset because a friend took her toy or whatever it is. So I think, , a lot of my work with teachers also has to be really thoughtful because I have to really problem solve with them to create strategies that are going to be practical for them. It’s easy for me to come into a classroom and say, “oh, I think I think Josie needs this, this and this and this” is what, like that’s probably not, that’s just not realistic. , teachers need to, you, , you, you to kind of take a step back and really think carefully about the strategies that you’re giving them because they’re, they need to be practical for them. And I also think, part of my job is helping parents understand the realities of whatever educational setting their child is in, is the setting really going to be able to provide what your child needs or do they need a more specialized setting? For some of my kids, they thrive in a regular education setting with a certain amount of support and that the school is able to give that or, if they’re not, , there are enough specialists kind of coming in and, and everyone’s just kind of on board and open to strategies and for others, unfortunately, that setting is not appropriate and we need to, to really think about a more specialized setting or, or a setting that has maybe a better teacher student ratio. So that the child just is more available because the setting doesn’t have as much stimuli that’s overwhelming them. But, but generalizing, generalizing the skills I would say is the hardest part. And I think, also making sure that we are careful about not giving too much support and not giving too little support. And when we’re giving a certain amount of support, when we release it, we release it very carefully and very slowly. The idea is that we want a child to be as independent as possible and whatever setting they’re in. I’m always looking for ways that we can slowly release support, but we wanna do it in the right way. We want to make sure that the child feels safe and doesn’t kind of go from 0 to 60. But, yes, it, it really does look different for every child in terms of that generalization because some schools are really open to it. I would say most schools are really open to it. I mean, certainly we’re limited, , I live in North Potomac Maryland. So I’m in Montgomery County. If I, I wanna go observe a child in Montgomery County public schools that can happen and I do that but I don’t have the same ability to work with a child and during the school day in, in Montgomery County, as I would say, in a private school.
Frances Shefter: (00:25:57): Right. Yeah. And setting makes all the difference. I have that conversation a lot with my clients because sometimes we know the general education setting is not 100% right. But we also know the special ed set, the full special ed setting isn’t right. And so where do we go from there? And it’s challenging. But it’s, I love that you do the modeling because thinking back to the teacher days or just with my own Children don’t grab a toy, you need to ask, telling a child to do that… obviously. Ok, what does that mean? And then the child has a process where you say like, oh, I see now that child “A” is upset because you took their toy that it’s just, it’s teaching them to see it and not just “don’t do that” it’s teaching them the why.
Naomi Rubinstein (00:26:42): Those cognitive strategies for the kid. Look, there are some kids who need, I would say more scripts than others. But when you have a child who’s available to the cognitive strategies. Getting them to actually think about think things through. So for example, like a cognitive cue might be “I wonder if Johnny wants a turn?” And then the child actually needs to think. Huh? Does Johnny need a turn and then they have to organize and plan it, right? Ok. If Johnny wants a turn, , then I need to ask them, ok, this is what I need to say and then, I need to be able also to respond to what Johnny says. So it migh be multiple levels of, of kind of cognitive strategies, right? Like a strate, , cognitive prompt for asking, then it may be a cognitive prompt for. Oh, what was, what was Johnny’s answer? Getting them to think? Oh, did Johnny answer? Oh, let me check in and , and see some kids, , again, it’s kind of this kind of progression of skills, some kids are ready for that. Other kids might need me to point out. Oh, , I didn’t hear Johnny’s answer. I’m wondering if he heard me, let me ask him, “Johnny, did you hear my question? “ I just think, , and again, it kind of also kind of bringing it back to the parents when we do that when I model for parents. I think it’s just so empowering and that’s my goal. I want parents to feel empowered. I want them to feel like when they’re on the playground with their child, they don’t need me there, they know what to do or they have just and I always say to parents like, look, you’re not always gonna have the answer. You might try attend to strategies and none of them work and like, remember like you’re human, your kids are human. Like sometimes you’re just gonna have a day, you’re just gonna have a minute, you’re just gonna have an hour and in those moments you might have to gently say to your child. “Ok, I’m, I see you’re really upset right now and we’re gonna leave, I’m going to pick you up and I’m gonna carry you to the car” And that’s it. , they’re just, it’s, they’re having, they’re having a hard time and they’re communicating a message to us that, that they just can’t be in that setting anymore. And that’s ok. , because I know, look as a parent…
Frances Shefter: (00:29:11): I like that because it’s done in a gentle way instead of, “That’s it, you don’t know how to behave or leaving.”
Naomi Rubinstein (00:29:15): Yeah. I mean, I think, like, I think kids need to know what’s going to happen, especially the kids I work with and what they might not hear… If they’re, the, the emotional side of their brain is flooded. They’re, they’re not, they might not hear us but we at least need to try and let them know like, ok, or like, even like, using a whisper voice. I always tell my parents, , it’s like being… if you’re a teacher in a class of 30 kids and, , everyone’s noisy and then you’ll see here some teachers kind of like, start to get louder and louder. I always tell teachers if you could just try to get quieter and quieter and quieter and dim the lights and just continue to talk like this. The kids are gonna say think, oh, the teacher’s trying to talk about, we can’t hear her so we need to get quiet. Right. Same thing with our voice. We can use our voice to actually calm the brain. We know that. So using like this whisper voice, I mean, it may, it may sound really silly, but we’re actually helping to calm our children. And quite frankly for some parents and look, everybody’s neurological system is different for me as a parent. If I start to whisper, I get calmer.
Frances Shefter: (00:30:24): Yep.
Naomi Rubinstein (00:30:25): So it’s actually a strategy, not just for the child, but also for the parent to calm themselves down. And again, I also feel like it’s empowering. One thing we haven’t had a chance to talk about yet is that I’m a parent of two neurodivergent teenage boys and I love my kids and, we have been through years of lots of wonderful things and some challenges. And so my approach with families is probably quite different than, it would be otherwise.
Frances Shefter: (00:31:05): Yeah, and it’s, I mean, being a parent of a child that has yes, no diverse, whatever it is, it’s such a huge difference. And I, I feel like for me, at least I can relate to the parents more and can be more empathetic and be like, I get it. I understand where you are and like, let’s see where we are now and how can we get to the next stage and what do we need to do? And the other thing I was thinking about is that, and I think I did a post on this the other day is that when a child elevates, they really need us to come down because if we go up, they’re going to go up, then we’re gonna, and then what happened? And I know I don’t feel good after that. So I’m sure my child doesn’t. So it’s kind of like, wait, let’s bring it back down and model that we can be upset and frustrated and not screaming now.
Naomi Rubinstein (00:31:58): And I think that is one of the hardest things as a parent. I mean, to be honest with you, sometimes I say to parents, like if you’re in a situation that’s safe for your child and you are having a hard time calming down, the best thing to do is model it right? Like I’m feeling really angry right now. So I need a break. Our Children… we want our kids to self advocate, which is, a goal for most of the kids I work with is that self advocacy goal. So let’s advocate for ourselves in front of our Children and let them know what is the appropriate thing to do in those moments. You’re feeling really stressed instead of raising your voice, let them know you need a break. It might not work for every situation. You might not be in a setting that’s safe for your child and you can just walk away. , if you have a really young child, you might not just be able to walk away even in your home. But if you have an older child just saying, “You know what I am feeling really, really tense right now, I’m gonna set a timer for two minutes and I’m just gonna go sit down and I’m gonna put on my headphones and I’m gonna listen to my music…” or whatever way helps you stay calm for some. For some parents, we are, we know that for example, there might be a calming strategy that we want our kids to use and we know it’s, it’s been, , beneficial for them and it really works. So in those moments of frustration, you might use it to try to model that strategy that you want your to, to learn. Well, it might be a strategy of taking a deep breath. It might be a strategy of squeezing like their favorite stuffy. So you literally might get up and pick up a stuffy and say, “oh I just really, I’m gonna squeeze my stuffy and I’m just gonna gonna just squeeze it so tight and I’m gonna set this timer and I’m just gonna keep squeezing my to stuffy” And modeling it, like, like kind of that thinking aloud again, like, oh, , oh my timer went off. But what, I’m gonna check in with my body. I don’t, my body does not feel calm. I think I need to set it for one more minute. And I just think that also when I, when we have those moments with our kids, for many of the kids, I work with their, their emotional side of their brain is, is getting flooded and they’re not available to listening to language. And so, it might just be sitting quietly for a few minutes and just taking deep breaths or whatever it is. For some kids, obviously taking deep breaths can actually heighten their emotions for others, it can, it can calm them. but whatever it is that works for their child. Sitting quietly waiting it out, we know that kind of anxiety in these situations, kind of like, go in waves and we know that if we even just sit there and wait, eventually they will calm down. And making sure again that we… if we’re just kind of sitting there quietly, that can be a calming strategy for us. And then once everyone’s calm, then you can have a conversation. Name it to tame it or whatever, , whatever, whatever strategy, whatever strategy, best practice strategy you want to use with your child. getting yourself calm first is, is hard and, and, and what I mean? It’s important. But I also think like, sometimes you might, it might not work. And like, validating that for parents and normalizing that. Like, look last week when you got really upset and you just couldn’t calm down. Like we’ve all been through that. Every parent goes through that. Like, of course, you, of course, it was hard, of course, it was hard because it is hard. And when your child is screaming at you or really just regulated, it’s really anxiety for us as parents, especially when, if you’re in a public place or even if you’re not, maybe it’s just the two of you in your house and like, maybe, your bucket got really full because you had a really challenging work day and you walked in the door and your child was screaming and you didn’t have a chance, to kind of, empty your bucket and, calm yourself down before you got into the house. So you just didn’t have the bandwidth to manage it. I think, I think parents need to feel like it’s safe to make mistakes, and, and we have to let our kids know it’s safe to make mistakes too.
Frances Shefter: (00:36:43): And that’s right. And you saying that it’s so true because one of the things I’ve been working on it’s like, look, hey, I’m hot head also. I’m a hothead. I know it. I lose my temper way more than I’d like to. , but the other thing I do is I’ll come back and be like, what mommy was wrong, mommy got upset and I said no because of this reason. But what, once I’ve thought it through, I think it’s ok. Let’s try a different way. And so it’s showing the child that just because you make a big mistake doesn’t mean it’s the end of the world doesn’t mean you’re a bad person. It’s, you made a mistake and now you’re gonna go back and, and fix it in a way that you’ve had,
Naomi Rubinstein (00:37:20): I think, and I think that kind of repair work also is really important. I, I think having a parent come to a child admitting a mistake, apologizing really, really normalizes mistakes and lets kids know it’s safe. And you’re also repairing, repairing that moment. The repair is really important for the child. I think back to my graduate work in New York and education and I think about how I was taught that the teacher is not always like the teacher should not be on a pedestal. The teacher doesn’t have all of the answers or all the information. Parents learn from their kids every day. I know I do, and it’s funny sometimes I’ll have moments with my kids, at the moment with my 16 year old just because he’s a little bit older, , I’ll have modeled a million different kind of thoughts of empathy. And then in that, in that moment when I’m not being empath, , empathetic, he’ll call me on it, “Like mom…” and I’ll say like, “Yeah, you’re right. I’m I’m learning from you, I’m learning from you.” The kids, kids should not feel like their parents have all the answers because they don’t, I know I don’t. and, and I also think, and again, it’s so it’s not, it’s about the kids, but it’s also about letting parents know like it’s ok if you don’t have all the answers, it’s ok to ask for help, it’s ok to, to, to make mistakes.
Frances Shefter: (00:39:01): So and to ask for support that I’ve talked about that a few times is that the parents asking for help, like calling somebody like you calling an advocate, an attorney other people that can give support is teaching the child that your child doesn’t have to do it all alone either. We as parents, we can’t do it all alone. It takes, it takes a village and it’s OK to need that village. And I think it’s great modeling for our kids and like we were talking about like, we’ve been talking about developmentally in different stages. Like this isn’t something like it. Can you like, teach the children like, OK, we’re gonna, six months or a year and then we’re good, we’re separated or is this like a long term developmental thing that you need to work with the families?
Naomi Rubinstein (00:39:47): It really depends, I have families. I work with, sometimes just very briefly, I might go and then do I might be referred by a school and I might… lately… maybe the school has shared some concerns with the parents and I go and observe, this usually happens in the younger kids where I’ll go in and observe in the classroom and then I’ll do a home visit and then I’ll have a parent meeting when we’ll talk about the observations. And sometimes it’s me doing that kind of navigation with them because they need the support kind of figuring out what’s the next step. So for some kids, it’s… for some families, I might be working with them for a short time of just like a month where I’m just helping them navigate kind of the next steps. Maybe I’m just referring them to you an OT for an eval and then they just need ot, , like that does happen. I wouldn’t say it’s, it’s common. , but it definitely happens. And for others it’s kind of supporting them through, through the years, , sometimes it’s, , working with a family when the child is in preschool and then helping them transition to kindergarten, either at a private school or a public school, helping them navigate that, helping them get an IFSP or an IEP or a 504. And, working maybe more on the school side of things. And then for others, it’s kind of planting seeds for like… I am always trying to take the long term approach and thinking ahead, ok, your child is, is this age now in one or two years, they’re going to be expected to do this. What are the things we need to work on now to kind of create that foundation so that they’re ready for that next step? Again, that planting seeds, I think is really important. I think even when a child isn’t necessarily ready for something we can start to plant seeds. Whether it’s, I’m working with one child, using a social thinking strategy of expected and unexpected behavior of the child isn’t ready yet. And again yet, I think is the important word for some of the higher level skills, but making sure that we’re planting the seeds with certain things now so that when they are ready,maybe, maybe they weren’t showing kind of a lot of engagement with certain things at, or maybe they aren’t showing certain engagement with certain things now. But I find that kids who don’t look like they’re listening are listening. So, I’m sure you have a lot of amilies you represent who have kiddos who maybe they’re not making eye contact. But I bet they’re getting a lot of the information you’re giving. So I think it’s really, really important to plant the seeds while making sure that you’re also not overwhelming them with whatever it is you’re trying to communicate.
Frances Shefter: (00:43:01): Yeah, that’s so true. So why, like, what should parents look for? Like if they’re saying they know something’s quirky about their child or this or that? Like, are there certain things that parents should look for to know? Like, oh, wait a minute, I need to reach out to Naomi because we need help.
Naomi Rubinstein (00:43:19): It’s a really good question. It’s really hard to answer frankly because I think every child is so different. But I would say that, the majority of kiddos who I see do struggle with that cognitive flexibility, the ability to shift from one thing to another. If they’re having… especially with the younger kids, if they’re not able to stick with something. And if they’re kind of kind of flitting from one activity to another, if they’re, if every kind of little deal is a big deal, if they’re having difficulty picking up on those social cues… Joint attention is a big one at a young age when we, we know when, for those listening, who don’t know what that means. It’s, , when two or more people are, focused on an object or a person or like that kind of shared enjoyment.I think it’s, it’s tricky. I think that, , especially parents who just have one child and they don’t necessarily have a typically developing child first. It can be really hard and I think sometimes, , we can dismiss certain behaviors. but I think that, generally… try to partner… I say to parent, try to really try to partner with the schools when they come to you with a concern, really listen and when they go and I, I think one thing I’ve been struggling with and a lot of my colleagues have been struggling with is, when they go to the pediatricians… make sure you’re a really good reporter because the pediatricians… they’re not, obviously… we want them to focus on the developmental piece, but keep in mind that they’re on the pediatricians only seeing your child in an office once every “X” amount of months. And so it’s not a minute. And they’re not talking to the school and they’re not talking to the soccer coach and they’re not… they’re not talking to all these people in your child’s life and they’re not seeing with their own eyes, your child’s in, in different settings. So your child might do really, really well, one on one, your child might do really well with adults, right? If your child is doing really, really well with adults, but not necessarily engaging with peers. If they’re going to the playground and they prefer to play that by themselves or they’re getting really stuck on something like, oh… they and like something that might not be something that’s kind of, you would expect them to get stuck on. Maybe it’s like… and again, this doesn’t necessarily mean anything but, maybe they’re getting stuck on doing something over and over and over again. Maybe they’re getting stuck on drawing a picture over and over again or, they wanna see you do something over and over again. Now that’s very typical, right? Like little kids like repetition, they like routine. They like that kind of cause effect piece. But I would say if your gut tells you that something is just a little off or you’re kind of looking around, you’re with another child and another child is interacting in a certain way and you say to yourself, “I don’t see my child doing that or I don’t see my child imitating me. I don’t see… or they’re getting really upset, when it’s loud or they’re getting really upset with certain… in the bathtub and they don’t want to have their hair washed.” Whatever it is. Again, it doesn’t mean that we need to be super concerned about it, but talk to somebody, right, talk to a specialist. and again, you need to be a good reporter because what I find is that, when we go to the pediatrician and we fill out the M-cat, those questions are written by specialists but parents are not specialists. So sometimes I think the questions are really ambiguous and sometimes, you think you’re answering the question correctly, but when, in fact, you might not know exactly what you’re looking for as a parent. And so I would just say when in doubt, if you just feel like something’s just not what you expect… the worst thing that has happened is that you’ve wasted your time, but you haven’t wasted your time. It’s just you spent the time and you kind of feel better about it. But again, I think the reporting piece is really, really important and also listening to the people in your child’s life, like the teachers who do have that child development experience and understand typical development. being a listener and really acting on it and really being their partner is, is super, super important.
Frances Shefter: (00:48:16): Right. No. And it’s, it’s, it’s just the parent gut. I say that all the time to everybody in my network, people that I come in touch with it’s there and we need to learn how to touch it, touch it because like as you said, worst case scenario is you found out it’s nothing and that’s not a big deal. Best case scenario. Like if there is something, it’s better to start early rather than wait. Like service is early. I always say that the earlier you start the better because it just gives your child more of a fighting chance of getting where they need to be to be as good as they can be.
spk_2 (00:48:56): Right. I mean, look 90% of the synaptic connections in a child’s brain are… have developed by the time they’re four. And so, and it doesn’t mean, I mean, we know that the brain is very malleable through childhood and adulthood. But I do, I mean, I see such an enormous difference and we know, like you said, research has shown that kids, the kids who have gotten intervention before the age of three are much less likely to need intervention later. I would rather see a child be in a more specialized setting, a educational setting at a younger age so that they can thrive and be independent in a regular educational setting later. In my experience, depending on the child. Right. I would say that most of the kids who, whose parents put them in a specialized setting when they really needed it were better able to shift to a regular education setting later. Obviously, not everybody… every situation is different. But I would say that’s really a pattern that I see. Unfortunately, people who… parents sometimes are really, really focused on being in a mainstream educational setting and look that is the goal, right?
Frances Shefter: (00:50:14): Sometimes, right? If it’s appropriate.
Naomi Rubinstein (00:50:16): Right. If it’s appropriate, but that’s the, that’s the key, right? As you said, if it’s appropriate, I and I, I just think like when we just take a step back, , think about what’s really best for our child right now and nothing is permanent. I say, I tell parents, like, sometimes you’re not like they want answers, they want to know like they want a crystal ball. If I put my child in the school, are they gonna thrive? I don’t know, sometimes like there’s no way to know. Sometimes you have to make the leap and actually put your child in the setting to know. But I will say, I always try to tell parents like nothing is permanent. You’re the parent, you get to choose if you make a choice. And you find after you have really given a time that it is not the best environment for your child. You are in charge, you get to make the choice to, to pull your child down, move your child, whatever it is, obviously, , sometimes financial resources get in the way. And kind of going back to the conversation we had earlier about my lens of, of a, of a parent of two neurodivergent kids. it is different and so I try to really think about my experience as a parent, which is going to be diff different from my, my client’s experience. But at the same time, I think many of us kind of share the same… certain experiences in terms of… a lot of parents, they, they go, they, they want support for their child and they know it’s going to automatically be much more expensive than kind of just a support for a neuro typical child. It just, it just is. And so I always just try to be really, really sensitive to kind of not just kind of emotionally what’s going on, but also financially what’s going on. That has a huge impact on a, on a parent, so a lot of parents, most parents can’t give their child every single intervention that they want to, with the exact intervention as they want to because it’s simply just not within their budget and they don’t have the resources for it. So I really do try to work with families. I never want finances to prevent them from working with me. And if I can’t support them then I will work very hard to make sure that I refer them to someone who can. , and that’s not just financially just in general. I mean, I, I think it’s so important for us as practitioners to have that integrity. I, I never want a client to feel like I’m pushing them to do something because it’s my in my … favor of my business. That’s, that’s just, that’s not gonna fly with me.
Frances Shefter: (00:53:16): And I do this, , I do the same thing like, offer strategy sessions and I tell parents, like sometimes I will tell you not to hire me, although I can get a perfect IEP in place. The resources are better spelled going, hiring a dyslexic coach or going into hiring an executive functioning person and like integrity is so important to make sure like we get it. We’re parents, we have limited resources and let’s use them wisely so that we get our children what they need.
Naomi Rubinstein (00:53:45): Yeah. And it’s hard. Part of my job also is to help my families prioritize what the interventions are and sometimes it is like, look right now, I, I had someone call me recently right now… it, so I said to them it sounds like you have a really good team in place. Like, at some point, maybe, maybe it will work together and maybe not. And that’s ok… and it also has to be, this is a different topic, but it also has to be a good match, right? Like I have to feel like I can help your child and if, if, if your child doesn’t feel connected to me for whatever the reason, that’s ok, I’m gonna refer them out. I’ve done it before. I mean, it doesn’t happen often but I do it because…, or if I feel like, ‘ve utilized the skills that I have and I just feel like for whatever reason, the strategies I’m using, , I’ve, I’m, I’ve exhausted what I think is, is appropriate and I just think we need a different lens. I’m gonna send you elsewhere. It doesn’t always… people always don’t want, always want to hear it right. They want to know that like, well, my child really likes working with you. Why can’t, well, because I just, I think that they can be making more progress somewhere else and they need a different approach. They might need a mental health care provider and, that’s what they need. I think staying in my lane is really important. I’m really, really transparent with parents when they call me about, , what it is. I do and what it is. I don’t do. I can support a lot of things like emotional modulation and self regulation. But I also sometimes need to feel like I’m getting guidance from a mental health care practitioner. I think that’s super, super important to have those really candid conversations with parents, especially in a time when it’s really hard to get in with, with good people in the mental health care field. And there are long wait lists and I know parents are just desperate to get their kid in. But if I feel like that’s what they need, that’s what they need. So yeah, that transparency and the integrity to me is really important.
Frances Shefter: (00:55:57): So how do parents get in touch with you? Like if they say, ok, my gut is telling me I need to call Naomi, what should they do? How should they contact you?
Naomi Rubinstein (00:56:05): So they can either email me, do you want me to send my email or are you gonna, well…
Frances Shefter: (00:56:9): we’ll have it, it’ll be in the show notes below but you can, yeah,
Naomi Rubinstein (00:56:13): So they can either email me or they can give me a call. I I generally get back to people within 24 hours, the latest 48 hours. And then , we, we sit down and I… some people are, are, are limit like, like to limit their kind of free consultations. I really try not to do that because I feel like that initial call is really, really important. It gives the parent an opportunity to get to know who I am and how I, how my practice works. And also for me to get a feel for the child and family strengths and challenges to, to think about. Am I the right person or might they be better or serve with somebody else? So that initial phone call or that email is the best way to get in touch with me.
Frances Shefter: (00:57:02): Perfect. Awesome. This has been so wonderful, Naomi, thank you so much for being a guest on my show and I hope the listeners found it as valuable as I did. I love, that’s one of the things I love about the show is I always learn something new.
Naomi Rubinstein (00:57:16): I really appreciate you having me and I just for me, I love talking to other people in the field. I feel like all of us just want to do what’s best for families and children. And it’s always really fun for me to talk to people like you. So thank you so much for having me.
VOICEOVER (00:57:34): You’ve been listening to Stress-free IEP® with your host, Frances Shefter. Remember you do not need to do it. All alone, you can reach Frances through ShefterLaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments and sharing the show with others through youtube, linkedin Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Podcast, Stitcher, and more.
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