In this episode of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter speaks with Dana Jeffrey, Licensed Educational Psychologist and Nationally Certified School Psychologist, specializing in assessing learning disabilities in children and adults.
Dana discusses the difficulty in defining learning disabilities effectively and the reliance on labels or diagnoses in accessing services, including the different methods districts use to identify learning disabilities, from the discrepancy model to the response to interventions model.
As an independent evaluator, Dana shares a powerful story of assessing a law school student who had been compensating for her learning disability her entire life.
Dana dives into the evolving landscape of IEPs, and the increase in students being placed in special education. We explore the role of assessments, the importance of collaboration between home and school, and the need for better support and universal instruction.
Learn more about the complexities of defining learning disabilities, assessing students, and finding effective interventions, and the positive impact assessments can have on children’s lives.
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP® experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
FRANCES ( 00:00:38): Hello, everyone. Welcome to the show. Today’s special guest is a psychologist in the Sacramento area and her name is Dana Jeffrey. Dana, please introduce yourself.
DANA ( 00:00:51): Hi, Frances, I’ve been, I’ve been looking forward to this. I’m an educational psychologist in Sacramento, California, nationally certified school psychologist and I, I worked in the schools for 20 years in the public schools and have had my private practice in Sacramento close to five years. So I do psychoeducational assessments in the schools and then in the private practice I assess adults as well. So I do a range, I do assessments, a range of ages and a range of challenges whether it’s learning autism. I think I’ve done a little bit of everything in terms of assessment.
FRANCES ( 00:01:43): But it’s great to know. So, since you do private also, would you do, like, if a parent got an individual education evaluation paid for by the county you got, you would provide that you could do that.
DANA ( 00:01:55): Yeah. If a parent has concerns about the evaluation the district did, maybe they don’t feel like the assessment was thorough or they don’t agree with the results and they have the right to ask for an independent evaluation. So I would do, I do those. I also have parents that seek me out. They don’t want to wait for the school to get through that whole process and they, or they’re frustrated trying to navigate getting an assessment done and then they might seek me out and I do intervention with children too. I do you know, skill building with kids, intervention with kids in my practice too. So a little bit of everything.
FRANCES ( 00:02:48): Yeah. No, it’s good to know because with the evaluation process, you know, when parents don’t always know if they disagree with the evaluation in the school that they can ask for an independent educational evaluation. And by federal law, the schools have two options, they can either grant it or they can file for due process against the parents to stand by their evaluation. Right. And it’s been my experience that schools will usually grant the IEE because they’ll say, although we stand by our, we will grant this. You know, we, we, you know, we, we’ll let the parents have it because it’s cheaper to pay for an IEE than to litigate.
DANA ( 00:03:29): Yes. Yes. And then also the district will often provide a list of the psychologists they’ve approved or that they have screened. And I don’t know that parents realize that they can seek out someone and as long as that person has qualifications, then that’s their right as well. In fact, I just had a mom and I guess they’re about two hours away from Sacramento, seek me out. She said, I don’t trust the district and I’m not gonna use the list they gave me. And she said, I want you to do the assessment. And I said, well, I’m not gonna go to you two hours away. But if you wanna come to me, I would love to do the assessment. And so she did, she came to my office about four different times and we went through the whole process and I, I had just mentioned we actually just had the IEP meeting and I did come up with very different results than, and I had the luxury of time. I had the luxury of so, you know, to my, my friends and colleagues working in the schools the caseload is so enormous sometimes and the time constraints are so, and that’s the one thing about doing an independent evaluation, you have the luxury of time and you’re not necessarily, you have to stick to that 60 day timeline that’s in the schools. You can, an independent evaluation, you can kind of go beyond that a little bit.
FRANCES ( 00:05:14): And isn’t it also, like when the school system does it and I love that you do it, school system and private because when the school system does it, they’re only really looking at the educational stuff at the educational impact. Right. Whereas when you do it privately, you’re doing a, a fuller battery and go, you can go a lot deeper, right?
DANA ( 00:05:32): Well, I’m still looking at educational impact if I’m doing an IEE because it’s for the district, but I can definitely delve in. I can get more information about what the referring concern is. You know, sometimes if you spend some time interviewing the teacher and the parent and you take some real time delving into what the concerns are, you can develop a better assessment, a battery, an assessment battery than you would in the schools when you’ve got this much time in a meeting. And you really, and many times there’s not that time to follow up and say, let me get more information about what your concerns are. They’ll just dive into the assessment and cover what they need to, they want, they’re looking at eligibility whereas sometimes doing an independent evaluation, you can delve in a little more. And for, for example, I had this little girl that I just finished with, the parent drove all the way. She has her struggles with anxiety in the classroom and keeping up. And so in my mind, I thought, gosh, there’s a little bit of anxiety here. She’s her mom said, but everybody in the class finishes their tests before her and she’s the last one to turn in her test. And so immediately, I thought processing speed, this might be an issue. This little girl might have some issues with processing speed and there can be a lot of reasons for that anxiety or, but the interesting thing is the district assessment. The district assessed the first time and the parents weren’t real pleased. And so the district said, can we do a little more testing? Well, they gave the same, yeah, the same battery of tests.
FRANCES ( 00:07:33): Different, not the exact same?
DANA ( 00:07:36): Almost almost. And so then when they came to me, I looked at that and I thought, well, I have some questions here that aren’t answered. I think there are some holes in this assessment. And when I got started, there definitely, there were and so she did have some challenges in processing speed in some other areas. But I did, I had the luxury of time and, and I did get, and the parents were very sweet after they said, you know, you, you gave us so much more. This is such a richer picture than what the district. And the problem is, special ed has grown exponentially and we can, we can talk more about that. But like I said, my colleagues in the schools the caseloads are enormous, the time constraints working under are, are enormous.
FRANCES ( 00:08:33): But yeah, I, you know, I never, I never knocked the schools, you know, for what they do but they, but there’s different purposes, you know, the schools, as you said, looking for eligibility and looking for what’s happening in the school in the school and what that impact is. And while you’re looking at the school impact, you’re also looking at life and home and the bigger picture when you do it privately. And so it is so much more for the parents.
DANA ( 00:9:00): Yeah. Well, I think one thing that I, you know, when we’re talking about in ed code, in order to diagnose and make an educational diagnosis, there has to be some impact academically. But also I think it’s important this assessment that I just referred to where the parents brought the little girl to me, drove about two hours each time. Um, you know, the mom was saying she keeps up in school, she is, she’s forcing herself to really, she compensates but then she comes home and she just collapses because it’s been so hard for her all day to push herself and try and keep up at the pace that the general ed classroom was moving at. And it just didn’t seem sustainable to me, especially she was in fourth grade and the, and, you know, the, the, pedal hits the medal in fourth grade things really amp up.
FRANCES ( 00:10:01): I’ve had, yeah, I’ve had a lot of those cases, and the school is pushing back but they’re fine in school and they’re fine in school. Um, and I said, but that’s because they can mask it and then they fall apart at home and the parents have to put in the supports. Whereas if the supports were in school and, you know, the teachers would look at me and give me the, you know, sometimes agree with me, sometimes don’t. And then I put it in the context of what do we do as adults when we’ve had a really rough day, but we had to stay at work. We had to do what we had to do because that’s it. What do we do? We go home and have a glass of wine, go for a run or, you know, like we have the outlet, the kids don’t because then they get home and they have to do homework and they have to do this and they have, they don’t have an outlet like we do and they need the support to learn how to, handle it and usually I see light bulbs go off on a lot of the teachers, like, oh, because it finally makes sense because it’s relatable.
DANA ( 00:11:03): Yeah. Or if a, a child that is, like you said, if the parent has done some supporting at home and, done some work then the child can compensate longer a lot of the time. You know, they, they’ve developed some tools and it is our special ed., our model and doing assessments is based on a medical model. So when you go to the doctor, the doctor is looking for something wrong, he’s checking your blood pressure and your heart rate and he’s looking for something wrong. And that’s the sad thing. Um when I do an assessment, it’s, it’s based on a medical model and I’m looking for what’s wrong. And the, the longer I do this, this kind of model of deficit thinking it is you know, I really think it, it, it’s a way to fail. We really do wait till kids finally show up as struggling. And then often, then at that point, we say, ok, now we’ve got to do something, you know, or the child is compensated so long, but then they are struggling at home as well. But it is a kind of a model based on, on deficit thinking.
FRANCES ( 00:12:27): And I say that I’ve been saying that a lot recently, even more recently, that I see like they’re, that we’re labeling these kids as something wrong with them. Um, and it’s not, their brain doesn’t work the way our normal brain works. But what’s a normal brain? Like, who decided that? You know what I mean? Like my story, like, I couldn’t spell when I was a kid so I didn’t think I was smart. I didn’t think I was smart enough to go to law school, you know? And then like after years, I was like, yeah, I think I’m just gonna try and, you know, look, I, you dare.
DANA ( 00:13:02): Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I love what you said about the brain. I tell kids all the time, I say our brain is like a construction zone and it’s under construction all the time. We’re building new pathways and, and, and intervention changes the brain and so your brain is always and, and they, and they show intervention can build new pathways that can help change the brain, a learning disability. It’s biological, it doesn’t go away. I tell parents that it’s, it’s doesn’t disappear, but you can do things to support and make changes in the brain and, and also teach a child strategies to work with their, whatever their learning challenge happens to be, you know. But it’s kind of like you said, frame it in a way where our brain is this amazing thing and, and it’s like under construction and we can do things to build new, new pathways and, and so when I’m talking to kids, when I finish an assessment, I’ll explain. Ok, this is, this part here, maybe we need to work on a little bit and this part is really strong and, and, and kids love it when you talk to them that way. They, you know, are yeah. And to know that they can work, they can work on an intervention and, and then you get some so, you know, nothing wrong with your brain. Right now. We all have differences, learning differences, learning strengths, learning weaknesses.
FRANCES ( 00:14:40): And how boring would we be if our brains all worked the same? You know? Right. And, you know, we lawyers joke around all the time when we, somebody tries to get us to do math. We’re like, no, no, no. That’s why we went to law school. We don’t have to do math, you know, because math’s not natural to us but accountants, it’s natural to them. But if they were to read a case law, it would just not work for them. And so all of our brains are different the way it should be. It’s just learning how to adjust. And I know I want to go back to like learning disabilities because I know a lot of people say learning disabilities and people don’t like a lot of parents or, even educators sometimes don’t fully grasp what learning disabilities are. So, what can you go into that a little bit more?
DANA ( 00:15:26): Yeah. Well, I think we’ve been trying to define or when a learning disability or how do we define a learning disability ever since IQ tests were developed. We’ve been, I think we’ve been trying to figure out and I don’t know that we’ve still done a very good job of it. And in education, what I hate is and even in the medical world we have to have a label or a diagnosis to get service. And so I feel like I sometimes, you know, parents want a label or a diagnosis so they can access a service. And the first thing I say is, you know, special ed is not the end all be all, it’s not gonna fix. It’s, it’s a myriad of things you put it in place and, and special education can be a component. It’s just like medication, you’re not gonna just give a child medication and think that will remedy everything. But so a learning disability, I really feel like if, if you’re looking at what the law says, you’ve got to have average to above average intelligence to have a learning disability. And it’s, and the last time federal law was reauthorized, they gave districts three kind of methods for defining a learning visibility and, and, and you might know there’s a discrepancy model. So some districts will say, ok, this is we what we estimate the child’s ability to be, you know, average intelligence above average, below average, whatever they estimate the ability to be. And then some area of processing that is getting in the way, you know, like I mentioned processing speed or, or some aspect of auditory processing and then you the, the third prong or, or would be in the law, is it impeding learning? Is this challenge? What we found impeding learning? And also districts can use a, a model of processing strengths and weaknesses where, you know, you do a battery of tests and if there’s some real gaps between processing areas in terms of strengths and weaknesses and then there’s response to intervention. So districts can also get qualified children for special ed based on, have you put some documented interventions in place and collected data. And then is the child not responding and if they’re not responding, then the assumption is, you know, there’s likely some kind of a learning disability there.
FRANCES ( 00:18:00): And it’s important, it’s really important for parents to know that as well because the schools I’ve seen often, even some psychologists are set on, it must be this one only, you know, and, and that, that’s the only way and if they don’t fit into this box in that way, they’re not. And I’ve had that so many times, especially with dyslexia because when you look at the discrepancy model, usually our dyslexic children are average or above average intelligence. And when you look at the whole picture of reading and math, they are average or above average. Not until you go down deeper into the little subtests that you see the discrepancies.
DANA ( 00:18:42): Yeah. Well, I can, I give an example which just, and I, I get technical but this little girl, I mentioned that the mom brought her to me. Part of the reason that the district didn’t find kind of this pieces. I, I don’t know. Um, so there are different kinds of dyslexia and this, this particular little girl had what’s called surface dyslexia. So she was pretty adept at sounding out words if she looked at a word, decoding the word. But if it was an irregular word that you couldn’t decode and she had to have a visual representation of it in her memory, she couldn’t read the word. So I gave her a list of irregular words to read in 30 seconds. She could only read five words. And when you added that with her processing speed and she, there were some things going on there that were really getting in the way of her reading, fluency and comprehension. And like I said, she’d been able to compensate but the reading challenges and, you know, the expectations had increased and these challenges, we’re, we’re starting to really get in her way in terms of keeping up in the classroom.
FRANCES ( 00:20:03): And that’s interesting. I didn’t realize that with, I mean, I know there’s lots of different types of dyslexia and stuff. But I didn’t realize that you could be good at the decoding and more of the sight words, having the issues. And I know, like, from when I was a teacher and stuff, if you could decode words then we thought you could read. Right. That’s right. You know, like, and I know you’ve been in the system for a long time as well. Not, not so long, but so, well, but it’s changed, you know, like, what changes have you seen in special education in the school systems?
DANA ( 00:20:36): Yeah. Oh, lots of changes. I mean, I think the IEP used to be four or five pages and, and I remember my supervisor when I did my internship in the schools, he said I’m getting out of this. It’s starting to become too cumbersome, you know, because the IEP was starting to increase. And I mean, in the time I’ve been doing this, an IEP is now 20 pages or, you know, I mean, 30-35. Yes. I mean, it, it, it’s, it’s be, and also I would say the number of kids we’re putting into special ed. I mean, ideally 8 to 10% of your population, whether it’s the school population or the whole district will be receiving special education services. But that’s not the case in, in a lot of districts, the percentage of kids designated as special education has increased so much. We, it’s grown exponentially in the time I’ve been doing this and is that, does that mean we’ve got more kids with this, I hate that word disability, but more kids with disabilities or are we not doing a good job at that universal tier of instruction supporting kids? So that for example, I’ll just go back to this little girl again who it was harder to find this surface dyslexia. Now, the parents brought these concerns up in 2019 before the pandemic and the, and the district there wasn’t much intervention put into place, if any. So by the time I did an assessment, if this had been just some, some general ed supports have been put in place in 2019, then I don’t think this little girl maybe would have needed to be in special ed. But I think sometimes because we’re looking at deficits and it’s a medical model sometimes, things go on longer than they should and intervention really needs to happen early. You know, I think it’s just like with autism, you, the earlier you the better, you know.
FRANCES ( 00:22:59): Yeah. No, definitely. And I, like, I know I’ve seen here they’ve changed the math model and started teaching math, in all these different ways. Which would have been fabulous for me because I wasn’t good at math either, but it seems like reading has stayed teaching the way they teach reading and, you know, everybody’s talking about Orton-Gillingham and Wilson method and all these methods of teaching dyslexia where if the teachers were trained in that, in regular ed, they could teach that way. It’s not like kids that, you know, like all kids would benefit. It’s not like only kids with dyslexia can learn that way. I don’t know. It’s just another way.
DANA ( 00:23:40): Good instruction is good instruction. I mean, all kids, but I think most teachers, at least kind of my experience over the years working with teachers and I’ve worked with some amazing teachers and they are taught to teach sort of to the middle. So it’s just kids with learning challenges but, and gifted kids have learning disabilities too. So it’s, what do you do with those kids that are sort of outside that, that norm or that middle, that I think most teachers aren’t taught how to meet their needs.
FRANCES ( 00:24:17): And that’s a, that’s, yeah, that’s a conversation I have with potential clients all the time of that. Um, the schools don’t have to provide the best instruction. They have to do it mediocre what’s appropriate. Um, and so, and even with special education, sometimes you can’t meet all of the child’s needs in the school. Right. You know. Yes, they’re legally required to, but there’s limits.
DANA ( 00:24:43): Yeah. Appropriate public education doesn’t have to be the Cadillac. But, but we, but we need to make sure that child is growing right, that the child is making progress every year and, and it’s when a child isn’t progressing that I can start. You know?
FRANCES ( 00:25:03): Definitely. And that’s something, you know, parents don’t realize either is, you know, the schools every three years have to look at eligibility again, but parents can request evaluations. As long as one hasn’t been done in the last 12 months, parents can request evaluations again. So if you think your child is not progressing, you know, go ask the school to evaluate.
DANA ( 00:25:26): Yes. Well, and I think too, what I’ve seen is I’ve sat in meetings where the goals get written for whatever the challenge is. And often there are goals that really aren’t tailored, they’re sort of general goals that aren’t maybe tailored to that child specific challenge. And I don’t know, sometimes I wonder if the, the goal is really understood by the teacher and by the parent. So I always tell parents if, if you don’t understand the goal and what it means, then how are you gonna know whether your child is at that the benchmark and beyond, you know, whether that child has progressed, you gotta understand really what they’re working on.
FRANCES ( 00:26:16): And I, and I, I say that often to the parents, like you need to ask if you don’t understand it, you need to ask yes, because, and that’s right because, you know, there are so many parts to the IEP and so many different areas that, that parents need to know. And I know we’ve talked about it before the procedural safeguard. It’s like, you know, they’re giving this, here your procedural safeguards in this 34 page book. Um And you know, like they’re supposed to know all that and that I’m gonna pause us for a minute because I have a special offer for parents about procedural safeguards. Ok.
You’re listening to Stress-Free IEP® with Frances Schefter. At Shefter Law, P. A. we provide legal services in Maryland, DC and Florida, as well as advocacy services nationwide and in American schools overseas. Federal law is what guides IEP services and that is why it is a nationwide law that applies to everyone. If you want to know the procedural safeguards that 34-40 page document that the school hands you, if you want that abbreviated onto one page, check out this link where you can download a free version. Thank you.
Yeah. So I mean, it’s, there’s so much for parents to know what is, you know, but let’s let’s you know, putting it in what you do. What should parents know about the assessment process?
DANA ( 00:27:59): Well, no, that’s a good question. And I, what I wanted to say real quick too about the IEP is there’s a present level section and it was interesting, I spent hours assessing this particular girl I mentioned a few times and the present level section in the IEP was barely filled out. That section should be rich with information. Once you put a child through an entire assessment, you have a wealth of information about their learning, strengths, weaknesses, how they’re functioning and that present levels should be the guiding piece that, that present levels drives goals and you know, services and goals and the entire IEP. Right. So whenever I see if that it has not been really, if that’s not rich with information, I think that’s the place to start. But so with that said, I think an assessment, you’re trying to get that information about how to help the child. And so I always tell when we have a, a meeting prior to doing an assessment and we’ve got a group of people together to talk about a child. And I really want to ask some specific questions about what is this child struggling with? Um you know, and examples. I want concrete examples. Well, my child has a weak memory. Well, let’s talk about that. Is it, is it they can’t remember things you show them or wrote memory or is it kind of long term? You know, I mean, let’s, you know, be as specific as you can about your concerns and that helps us develop a battery of tests to really look at the more information a psychologist has going into an assessment, the better they can try and get a picture of what that is. And I think also it’s important for a parent if you are trying to make sure that some things have been done that, that some intervention has been attempted. Like, can this issue be ameliorated through some intervention, the school might be able to put in place without calling it special ed? You know, and, and, and at home are let the school know, hey, these are some things we tried at home and it doesn’t seem to be helping or these are some things we tried at home that have helped. So consider it really should be a collaborative process between home and school to help this child and, and an assessment, like we said earlier is really looking and once you get to that point, then you’re talking about a disability, you’re labeling it a disability and which again, sometimes that needs to happen to but but it would be unfortunate if nothing were tried and sometimes that happens where a child’s been failing long enough that a, a parent will say I just, I want an assessment. I’m, I’m ready.
FRANCES ( 00:31:19): I was gonna say we get, we, I have a lot of people that come to me that the school gives pushback about assessments and they’ll say to wait and see or oh we need to put in some strategies. I mean, it even happened with my own child when she was in preschool and they, they’re giving me this back and forth that they didn’t know what I did for a living. Um, and so I was like, well, here’s the research based instruction strategies that I’ve been doing at home and that the preschool has been doing. And they’re looking at me like, how does she know all this and then I, you know, introduce myself and of course, they gave me all the assessments once I told them what I did, but you shouldn’t have to. Parents, you know, as parents, I tell them all the time. Parents, you trust your gut, trust your instinct, you know, think through everything you do at home for your child because guess what? Those are interventions, it doesn’t only have to be school interventions and, and make your arguments and push and don’t take no for an answer.
DANA ( 00:32:15): No. If, if you really feel like this has gone on, if it’s the same concern and you still have it and, and you’ve had it for a period of time and your gut is telling you something’s wrong. Then absolutely, you, it’s sometimes things go on too long and like I said, the earlier intervention happens, I think the, the better the outcomes, you know? Absolutely. I, I think it, it’s, and also then the child isn’t as far behind, you know, so they,
FRANCES ( 00:32:53): And what I say is the self esteem.
DANA ( 00:32:55): Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
FRANCES ( 00:32:57): So impacts because if you’re like, I wasn’t a good speller. And so for how many years I thought I wasn’t smart enough. It, it killed my self esteem. Um You know, I even had a, a high school teacher. Um Tell me that I, I wasn’t good at writing. My, my, my writing was a little weird. Um or not, I’m trying to remember the word he used but just like, not, not very organized like to say to a kid. And meanwhile, when I finally got the guts to go to law school, I was in law review.
DANA ( 00:33:27): Yeah. You
FRANCES ( 00:33:28): know what I mean? And that’s like, you know, like he said what he thought, but obviously it was there in my brain. It just, I hadn’t been taught how to do it right.
DANA ( 00:33:37): And also I think what that goes to show is that things that you say to Children, whether it’s a teacher or are impactful, I mean, sometimes these, these comments or things that are said can last, like you said, a lifetime and, and kids internalize them. And so I always approach assessment as it’s, it’s like a puzzle. I get to figure out and I tell kids out we’re gonna work together to try and figure out how your brain works. I, I learned so much about you from doing this and it should be a positive experience and usually it is. I’ve had kids say to me when we’re done, I don’t get to come back anymore. And I said, no, we’re we’re finished and, and then they’ll come back in and visit anyway. But it, it should be. And again, when we talk about the changes I’ve seen over the years in special education, it has become because special ed has grown so much, it has become more instead of a collaborative process about helping a child and figuring it out together based on a team of people, parents, educators working collaboratively. It has become more contentious and adversarial and and that’s unfortunate and, but it, it’s a system that is, I mean, special ed, it has grown so much. The numbers are just, you know, I had a principal tell me once, if it’s the only game in town, parents are gonna try and get the help that way, you know. So again, if we don’t have the good universal instruction in place and we’re not supporting kids earlier on, then it does become the only game in town. So, yeah.
FRANCES ( 00:35:25): And that makes, yeah, that makes sense. It’s just so I love that you incorporate the kids so much and, and you know, there’s, I have often times potential clients and people I meet, you know, well, should I do the school assessment or should I do the private assessment? And we have that a lot and I usually, we have to delve in a little bit. Well, what, what results are you looking for? You know, what do you think like if somebody’s looking for, if they think something’s wrong and they’re not sure if they trust the school. Should they push the school to do it or if they can, do you think they should do it privately?
DANA ( 00:35:59): I think if, if I just know that in a, in a private setting there is the luxury of, of delving in more. Um, although I’ve seen some private assessments that aren’t, aren’t real thorough. So I think it’s about, again, each case is really individual. But if the parent is not getting much cooperation from the school and they’ve had to fight to get as far as the assessment process, then I think maybe that’s when it’s time to say, ok, I, I’m not getting the help I need here. So maybe I need to look at finding a professional outside of the school setting or like you, you, you bring a professional with you to a meeting and have the school to do it then and knowing that you have some backup and it’s too bad. It has to be that way. But sometimes in order to get an assessment done or yeah, it, it, there, it’s unfortunate.
FRANCES ( 00:37:04): I used to say like I remember what my teaching years and stuff that when I’m a parent, I don’t want to be that parent that the school talks about. And now as a parent, I do want to be that parent because if you’re not, who else is going to be? You know, and you don’t have to do it negative. You don’t have to do it mean. But advocate for your child don’t take no for an answer.
DANA ( 00:37:28): And you know, talking about when you said that some of the comments that teacher made stayed with you. I just, and so in a private practice, I also work with adults. I just had, I assessed a, a woman who was in her second year of law school and she suspected all along she had a learning disability and compensated all the way through school. So sometimes, you know, going through life feeling like something’s wrong and you don’t ever have it, anybody really explain to you. Yeah, this is what’s going on and, and this is your unique brain and how it works. This is why you struggle with this or that, this is why this or that is hard for you. I mean, she cried when we finished everything and I told her what was, you know, what was going on. And so I think again, just getting back to the earlier, you can support a child and, and answer questions. So a parent again, if they’re not getting, if they feel like the school district is really pushing back and not being collaborative, then sometimes but not all parents are able to do that. I mean, I’ve worked in schools where the parents that’s just not an option to go get, to go see private.
FRANCES ( 00:38:44): Although sometimes insurance does cover it. So in some instances.
DANA ( 00:38:50): Insurance covers some of mine. So that’s, and that’s something a lot of parents don’t know. I had this parent go back and look at their policy and it actually said psychoeducational evaluations were covered. So, and she did get it covered. So that was great.
FRANCES ( 00:39:07): Yeah. Yeah. And that’s something like, you know, I, I, I tell parents sometimes that if you’re getting so much of a pushback of the school even assessing your child, it’s going to be a battle to get eligibility to get the IEP, right? And all of that. So sometimes it makes sense to do the independent evaluation first because you don’t have to fight for that and then it saves your energy. Let’s fight for the eligibility and keep going and sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn’t, of course. Um, but it’s, you know, it’s, this is your child and the rest of your life, you know, the rest of your child’s life.
DANA ( 00:39:41): Yes. Absolutely. And especially a child that has a lot of years to get through school, you know, and this woman that was in law school that contacted me, I mean, had it been identified much earlier, that might have made a whole difference in how she, you know, saw herself and her learning pattern. So, yeah. Yeah,
FRANCES ( 00:40:03): Definitely. I feel like we could talk all day just noticing the time and I’m like, ah, but so I know you said that, the people drove two hours to you. Do you only do assessments in person?
DANA ( 00:40:18): I, you know, since, since COVID these test companies, a lot of them have come out with tests that you can administer online and, and a lot of psychologists are doing them online and trying to do a full assessment online. I prefer not to, I can I feel like I get so much rich information from spending time face to face with the child, watch or, or the adolescent or the teenager or the adult and watching how they approach a task. Their frustration level, I mean, anxiety, I learn a lot about their behavioral patterns and not just their brain but I, I just, it’s just like doing, I’ve done counseling online, administer counseling services to kids. And I, I just, I really prefer the information you get from doing an assessment in person. I feel like is, is much richer but yes, I can do them online but I much prefer doing them in person and having that opportunity. This family brought that I assessed this little girl I keep mentioning they brought the dog the rabbit. I met the sister. I mean, I had everybody in my office and I got a lot of information about the whole family and, and this child’s world, you know.
FRANCES ( 00:41:40): That makes sense because, you know, it’s, you know, and then we could go in the whole thing of the nature versus nurture and, you know, cultural and all that other stuff. It would be a whole another show. Um, but it makes sense like, yeah, I mean, I agree that assessment while sometimes it has to be virtual and it can be, I agree that reports are better when it’s in person because there’s the more of the connection also.
DANA ( 00:42:01): Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And you just learn so much more about the child and the whole, all of it, you know, because it is a puzzle. I approach each one of these as a puzzle and, and yeah, I, I know this has gone fast and I wanna, I do, I was gonna say, we talked about that. I just so, you know, and you brought up, I think one thing I hear a lot about is, is mental health issues since the pandemic. And I think, I, I have seen an increase in anxious kids and we’re, we’re humans, we’re wired for connection and I think the pandemic, none of us adults, children, we didn’t get the connection that we need as human beings. And so, kids weren’t able to connect and express their feelings. And so I think that’s something else as a psychologist can, you know, is I love that piece of working with kids is helping them identify and express their feelings. And tools for, for processing their emotions. Because I just, I feel like that’s such an important piece in terms of learning challenges. You can’t teach a kid that’s not ready to learn. If there’s anxiety, if there’s an emotional component going on, you really have to address that as well. So I don’t think we could get through this show talking about that piece of it because I think that and I also think when we talk about changes I’ve seen in my career, I, I more trauma, kids that have experienced more our world, there’s a lot more going on in our world. And I and kids that have experienced trauma and are bringing that trauma into their learning environment. And sometimes teachers besides having a learning difference, sometimes kids have this emotional baggage too. So teachers are amazing people. I mean, what they’re expected to do during the day and the, the number of roles they have to play. I just, it’s, it’s really incredible that what teachers do. And I, I think,
FRANCES ( 00:44:25): Yeah, one thing I wanna say on that because then we have to wrap up is that I always have to tell teachers if a child struggling in your class, it’s not anything wrong with you as the teacher or you teaching because a lot of times I get that, “I’m doing the best I can”. We know that 100% this child learns differently. It’s not on the teachers, it’s just the child learns differently and let’s find out how to get the supports in place, not only for the child but for the teachers as well. It helps everybody. But this is awesome. I definitely need to have you back on the show because we could do the whole another one on the mental health issue. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for being on the show and I know we have, we’re gonna have all of your links in the show notes so that people know how to get in touch with you.
DANA ( 00:45:16): And if you get to California, Frances, I, I will take you to lunch or something. Definitely.
FRANCES ( 00:45:22): Definitely. Thank you.
DANA ( 00:45:24): All right.
VOICEOVER ( 00:45:26): You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEP®. With your host Frances Shefter. Remember you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through ShefterLaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments and sharing the show with others through YouTube, LinkedIn, Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher and more.
Stress Free IEP® with Frances Shefter and Dana Jeffrey
In this episode of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter speaks with Dana Jeffrey, Licensed Educational Psychologist and Nationally Certified School Psychologist, specializing in assessing learning disabilities in children and adults.
Dana discusses the difficulty in defining learning disabilities effectively and the reliance on labels or diagnoses in accessing services, including the different methods districts use to identify learning disabilities, from the discrepancy model to the response to interventions model.
As an independent evaluator, Dana shares a powerful story of assessing a law school student who had been compensating for her learning disability her entire life.
Dana dives into the evolving landscape of IEPs, and the increase in students being placed in special education. We explore the role of assessments, the importance of collaboration between home and school, and the need for better support and universal instruction.
Learn more about the complexities of defining learning disabilities, assessing students, and finding effective interventions, and the positive impact assessments can have on children’s lives.
Stress-Free IEP®:
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP® experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
Watch more episodes of Stress-Free® on YouTube.
Connect and learn more from your host, Frances Shefter:
Read the full transcript:
FRANCES ( 00:00:38): Hello, everyone. Welcome to the show. Today’s special guest is a psychologist in the Sacramento area and her name is Dana Jeffrey. Dana, please introduce yourself.
DANA ( 00:00:51): Hi, Frances, I’ve been, I’ve been looking forward to this. I’m an educational psychologist in Sacramento, California, nationally certified school psychologist and I, I worked in the schools for 20 years in the public schools and have had my private practice in Sacramento close to five years. So I do psychoeducational assessments in the schools and then in the private practice I assess adults as well. So I do a range, I do assessments, a range of ages and a range of challenges whether it’s learning autism. I think I’ve done a little bit of everything in terms of assessment.
FRANCES ( 00:01:43): But it’s great to know. So, since you do private also, would you do, like, if a parent got an individual education evaluation paid for by the county you got, you would provide that you could do that.
DANA ( 00:01:55): Yeah. If a parent has concerns about the evaluation the district did, maybe they don’t feel like the assessment was thorough or they don’t agree with the results and they have the right to ask for an independent evaluation. So I would do, I do those. I also have parents that seek me out. They don’t want to wait for the school to get through that whole process and they, or they’re frustrated trying to navigate getting an assessment done and then they might seek me out and I do intervention with children too. I do you know, skill building with kids, intervention with kids in my practice too. So a little bit of everything.
FRANCES ( 00:02:48): Yeah. No, it’s good to know because with the evaluation process, you know, when parents don’t always know if they disagree with the evaluation in the school that they can ask for an independent educational evaluation. And by federal law, the schools have two options, they can either grant it or they can file for due process against the parents to stand by their evaluation. Right. And it’s been my experience that schools will usually grant the IEE because they’ll say, although we stand by our, we will grant this. You know, we, we, you know, we, we’ll let the parents have it because it’s cheaper to pay for an IEE than to litigate.
DANA ( 00:03:29): Yes. Yes. And then also the district will often provide a list of the psychologists they’ve approved or that they have screened. And I don’t know that parents realize that they can seek out someone and as long as that person has qualifications, then that’s their right as well. In fact, I just had a mom and I guess they’re about two hours away from Sacramento, seek me out. She said, I don’t trust the district and I’m not gonna use the list they gave me. And she said, I want you to do the assessment. And I said, well, I’m not gonna go to you two hours away. But if you wanna come to me, I would love to do the assessment. And so she did, she came to my office about four different times and we went through the whole process and I, I had just mentioned we actually just had the IEP meeting and I did come up with very different results than, and I had the luxury of time. I had the luxury of so, you know, to my, my friends and colleagues working in the schools the caseload is so enormous sometimes and the time constraints are so, and that’s the one thing about doing an independent evaluation, you have the luxury of time and you’re not necessarily, you have to stick to that 60 day timeline that’s in the schools. You can, an independent evaluation, you can kind of go beyond that a little bit.
FRANCES ( 00:05:14): And isn’t it also, like when the school system does it and I love that you do it, school system and private because when the school system does it, they’re only really looking at the educational stuff at the educational impact. Right. Whereas when you do it privately, you’re doing a, a fuller battery and go, you can go a lot deeper, right?
DANA ( 00:05:32): Well, I’m still looking at educational impact if I’m doing an IEE because it’s for the district, but I can definitely delve in. I can get more information about what the referring concern is. You know, sometimes if you spend some time interviewing the teacher and the parent and you take some real time delving into what the concerns are, you can develop a better assessment, a battery, an assessment battery than you would in the schools when you’ve got this much time in a meeting. And you really, and many times there’s not that time to follow up and say, let me get more information about what your concerns are. They’ll just dive into the assessment and cover what they need to, they want, they’re looking at eligibility whereas sometimes doing an independent evaluation, you can delve in a little more. And for, for example, I had this little girl that I just finished with, the parent drove all the way. She has her struggles with anxiety in the classroom and keeping up. And so in my mind, I thought, gosh, there’s a little bit of anxiety here. She’s her mom said, but everybody in the class finishes their tests before her and she’s the last one to turn in her test. And so immediately, I thought processing speed, this might be an issue. This little girl might have some issues with processing speed and there can be a lot of reasons for that anxiety or, but the interesting thing is the district assessment. The district assessed the first time and the parents weren’t real pleased. And so the district said, can we do a little more testing? Well, they gave the same, yeah, the same battery of tests.
FRANCES ( 00:07:33): Different, not the exact same?
DANA ( 00:07:36): Almost almost. And so then when they came to me, I looked at that and I thought, well, I have some questions here that aren’t answered. I think there are some holes in this assessment. And when I got started, there definitely, there were and so she did have some challenges in processing speed in some other areas. But I did, I had the luxury of time and, and I did get, and the parents were very sweet after they said, you know, you, you gave us so much more. This is such a richer picture than what the district. And the problem is, special ed has grown exponentially and we can, we can talk more about that. But like I said, my colleagues in the schools the caseloads are enormous, the time constraints working under are, are enormous.
FRANCES ( 00:08:33): But yeah, I, you know, I never, I never knocked the schools, you know, for what they do but they, but there’s different purposes, you know, the schools, as you said, looking for eligibility and looking for what’s happening in the school in the school and what that impact is. And while you’re looking at the school impact, you’re also looking at life and home and the bigger picture when you do it privately. And so it is so much more for the parents.
DANA ( 00:9:00): Yeah. Well, I think one thing that I, you know, when we’re talking about in ed code, in order to diagnose and make an educational diagnosis, there has to be some impact academically. But also I think it’s important this assessment that I just referred to where the parents brought the little girl to me, drove about two hours each time. Um, you know, the mom was saying she keeps up in school, she is, she’s forcing herself to really, she compensates but then she comes home and she just collapses because it’s been so hard for her all day to push herself and try and keep up at the pace that the general ed classroom was moving at. And it just didn’t seem sustainable to me, especially she was in fourth grade and the, and, you know, the, the, pedal hits the medal in fourth grade things really amp up.
FRANCES ( 00:10:01): I’ve had, yeah, I’ve had a lot of those cases, and the school is pushing back but they’re fine in school and they’re fine in school. Um, and I said, but that’s because they can mask it and then they fall apart at home and the parents have to put in the supports. Whereas if the supports were in school and, you know, the teachers would look at me and give me the, you know, sometimes agree with me, sometimes don’t. And then I put it in the context of what do we do as adults when we’ve had a really rough day, but we had to stay at work. We had to do what we had to do because that’s it. What do we do? We go home and have a glass of wine, go for a run or, you know, like we have the outlet, the kids don’t because then they get home and they have to do homework and they have to do this and they have, they don’t have an outlet like we do and they need the support to learn how to, handle it and usually I see light bulbs go off on a lot of the teachers, like, oh, because it finally makes sense because it’s relatable.
DANA ( 00:11:03): Yeah. Or if a, a child that is, like you said, if the parent has done some supporting at home and, done some work then the child can compensate longer a lot of the time. You know, they, they’ve developed some tools and it is our special ed., our model and doing assessments is based on a medical model. So when you go to the doctor, the doctor is looking for something wrong, he’s checking your blood pressure and your heart rate and he’s looking for something wrong. And that’s the sad thing. Um when I do an assessment, it’s, it’s based on a medical model and I’m looking for what’s wrong. And the, the longer I do this, this kind of model of deficit thinking it is you know, I really think it, it, it’s a way to fail. We really do wait till kids finally show up as struggling. And then often, then at that point, we say, ok, now we’ve got to do something, you know, or the child is compensated so long, but then they are struggling at home as well. But it is a kind of a model based on, on deficit thinking.
FRANCES ( 00:12:27): And I say that I’ve been saying that a lot recently, even more recently, that I see like they’re, that we’re labeling these kids as something wrong with them. Um, and it’s not, their brain doesn’t work the way our normal brain works. But what’s a normal brain? Like, who decided that? You know what I mean? Like my story, like, I couldn’t spell when I was a kid so I didn’t think I was smart. I didn’t think I was smart enough to go to law school, you know? And then like after years, I was like, yeah, I think I’m just gonna try and, you know, look, I, you dare.
DANA ( 00:13:02): Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I love what you said about the brain. I tell kids all the time, I say our brain is like a construction zone and it’s under construction all the time. We’re building new pathways and, and, and intervention changes the brain and so your brain is always and, and they, and they show intervention can build new pathways that can help change the brain, a learning disability. It’s biological, it doesn’t go away. I tell parents that it’s, it’s doesn’t disappear, but you can do things to support and make changes in the brain and, and also teach a child strategies to work with their, whatever their learning challenge happens to be, you know. But it’s kind of like you said, frame it in a way where our brain is this amazing thing and, and it’s like under construction and we can do things to build new, new pathways and, and so when I’m talking to kids, when I finish an assessment, I’ll explain. Ok, this is, this part here, maybe we need to work on a little bit and this part is really strong and, and, and kids love it when you talk to them that way. They, you know, are yeah. And to know that they can work, they can work on an intervention and, and then you get some so, you know, nothing wrong with your brain. Right now. We all have differences, learning differences, learning strengths, learning weaknesses.
FRANCES ( 00:14:40): And how boring would we be if our brains all worked the same? You know? Right. And, you know, we lawyers joke around all the time when we, somebody tries to get us to do math. We’re like, no, no, no. That’s why we went to law school. We don’t have to do math, you know, because math’s not natural to us but accountants, it’s natural to them. But if they were to read a case law, it would just not work for them. And so all of our brains are different the way it should be. It’s just learning how to adjust. And I know I want to go back to like learning disabilities because I know a lot of people say learning disabilities and people don’t like a lot of parents or, even educators sometimes don’t fully grasp what learning disabilities are. So, what can you go into that a little bit more?
DANA ( 00:15:26): Yeah. Well, I think we’ve been trying to define or when a learning disability or how do we define a learning disability ever since IQ tests were developed. We’ve been, I think we’ve been trying to figure out and I don’t know that we’ve still done a very good job of it. And in education, what I hate is and even in the medical world we have to have a label or a diagnosis to get service. And so I feel like I sometimes, you know, parents want a label or a diagnosis so they can access a service. And the first thing I say is, you know, special ed is not the end all be all, it’s not gonna fix. It’s, it’s a myriad of things you put it in place and, and special education can be a component. It’s just like medication, you’re not gonna just give a child medication and think that will remedy everything. But so a learning disability, I really feel like if, if you’re looking at what the law says, you’ve got to have average to above average intelligence to have a learning disability. And it’s, and the last time federal law was reauthorized, they gave districts three kind of methods for defining a learning visibility and, and, and you might know there’s a discrepancy model. So some districts will say, ok, this is we what we estimate the child’s ability to be, you know, average intelligence above average, below average, whatever they estimate the ability to be. And then some area of processing that is getting in the way, you know, like I mentioned processing speed or, or some aspect of auditory processing and then you the, the third prong or, or would be in the law, is it impeding learning? Is this challenge? What we found impeding learning? And also districts can use a, a model of processing strengths and weaknesses where, you know, you do a battery of tests and if there’s some real gaps between processing areas in terms of strengths and weaknesses and then there’s response to intervention. So districts can also get qualified children for special ed based on, have you put some documented interventions in place and collected data. And then is the child not responding and if they’re not responding, then the assumption is, you know, there’s likely some kind of a learning disability there.
FRANCES ( 00:18:00): And it’s important, it’s really important for parents to know that as well because the schools I’ve seen often, even some psychologists are set on, it must be this one only, you know, and, and that, that’s the only way and if they don’t fit into this box in that way, they’re not. And I’ve had that so many times, especially with dyslexia because when you look at the discrepancy model, usually our dyslexic children are average or above average intelligence. And when you look at the whole picture of reading and math, they are average or above average. Not until you go down deeper into the little subtests that you see the discrepancies.
DANA ( 00:18:42): Yeah. Well, I can, I give an example which just, and I, I get technical but this little girl, I mentioned that the mom brought her to me. Part of the reason that the district didn’t find kind of this pieces. I, I don’t know. Um, so there are different kinds of dyslexia and this, this particular little girl had what’s called surface dyslexia. So she was pretty adept at sounding out words if she looked at a word, decoding the word. But if it was an irregular word that you couldn’t decode and she had to have a visual representation of it in her memory, she couldn’t read the word. So I gave her a list of irregular words to read in 30 seconds. She could only read five words. And when you added that with her processing speed and she, there were some things going on there that were really getting in the way of her reading, fluency and comprehension. And like I said, she’d been able to compensate but the reading challenges and, you know, the expectations had increased and these challenges, we’re, we’re starting to really get in her way in terms of keeping up in the classroom.
FRANCES ( 00:20:03): And that’s interesting. I didn’t realize that with, I mean, I know there’s lots of different types of dyslexia and stuff. But I didn’t realize that you could be good at the decoding and more of the sight words, having the issues. And I know, like, from when I was a teacher and stuff, if you could decode words then we thought you could read. Right. That’s right. You know, like, and I know you’ve been in the system for a long time as well. Not, not so long, but so, well, but it’s changed, you know, like, what changes have you seen in special education in the school systems?
DANA ( 00:20:36): Yeah. Oh, lots of changes. I mean, I think the IEP used to be four or five pages and, and I remember my supervisor when I did my internship in the schools, he said I’m getting out of this. It’s starting to become too cumbersome, you know, because the IEP was starting to increase. And I mean, in the time I’ve been doing this, an IEP is now 20 pages or, you know, I mean, 30-35. Yes. I mean, it, it, it’s, it’s be, and also I would say the number of kids we’re putting into special ed. I mean, ideally 8 to 10% of your population, whether it’s the school population or the whole district will be receiving special education services. But that’s not the case in, in a lot of districts, the percentage of kids designated as special education has increased so much. We, it’s grown exponentially in the time I’ve been doing this and is that, does that mean we’ve got more kids with this, I hate that word disability, but more kids with disabilities or are we not doing a good job at that universal tier of instruction supporting kids? So that for example, I’ll just go back to this little girl again who it was harder to find this surface dyslexia. Now, the parents brought these concerns up in 2019 before the pandemic and the, and the district there wasn’t much intervention put into place, if any. So by the time I did an assessment, if this had been just some, some general ed supports have been put in place in 2019, then I don’t think this little girl maybe would have needed to be in special ed. But I think sometimes because we’re looking at deficits and it’s a medical model sometimes, things go on longer than they should and intervention really needs to happen early. You know, I think it’s just like with autism, you, the earlier you the better, you know.
FRANCES ( 00:22:59): Yeah. No, definitely. And I, like, I know I’ve seen here they’ve changed the math model and started teaching math, in all these different ways. Which would have been fabulous for me because I wasn’t good at math either, but it seems like reading has stayed teaching the way they teach reading and, you know, everybody’s talking about Orton-Gillingham and Wilson method and all these methods of teaching dyslexia where if the teachers were trained in that, in regular ed, they could teach that way. It’s not like kids that, you know, like all kids would benefit. It’s not like only kids with dyslexia can learn that way. I don’t know. It’s just another way.
DANA ( 00:23:40): Good instruction is good instruction. I mean, all kids, but I think most teachers, at least kind of my experience over the years working with teachers and I’ve worked with some amazing teachers and they are taught to teach sort of to the middle. So it’s just kids with learning challenges but, and gifted kids have learning disabilities too. So it’s, what do you do with those kids that are sort of outside that, that norm or that middle, that I think most teachers aren’t taught how to meet their needs.
FRANCES ( 00:24:17): And that’s a, that’s, yeah, that’s a conversation I have with potential clients all the time of that. Um, the schools don’t have to provide the best instruction. They have to do it mediocre what’s appropriate. Um, and so, and even with special education, sometimes you can’t meet all of the child’s needs in the school. Right. You know. Yes, they’re legally required to, but there’s limits.
DANA ( 00:24:43): Yeah. Appropriate public education doesn’t have to be the Cadillac. But, but we, but we need to make sure that child is growing right, that the child is making progress every year and, and it’s when a child isn’t progressing that I can start. You know?
FRANCES ( 00:25:03): Definitely. And that’s something, you know, parents don’t realize either is, you know, the schools every three years have to look at eligibility again, but parents can request evaluations. As long as one hasn’t been done in the last 12 months, parents can request evaluations again. So if you think your child is not progressing, you know, go ask the school to evaluate.
DANA ( 00:25:26): Yes. Well, and I think too, what I’ve seen is I’ve sat in meetings where the goals get written for whatever the challenge is. And often there are goals that really aren’t tailored, they’re sort of general goals that aren’t maybe tailored to that child specific challenge. And I don’t know, sometimes I wonder if the, the goal is really understood by the teacher and by the parent. So I always tell parents if, if you don’t understand the goal and what it means, then how are you gonna know whether your child is at that the benchmark and beyond, you know, whether that child has progressed, you gotta understand really what they’re working on.
FRANCES ( 00:26:16): And I, and I, I say that often to the parents, like you need to ask if you don’t understand it, you need to ask yes, because, and that’s right because, you know, there are so many parts to the IEP and so many different areas that, that parents need to know. And I know we’ve talked about it before the procedural safeguard. It’s like, you know, they’re giving this, here your procedural safeguards in this 34 page book. Um And you know, like they’re supposed to know all that and that I’m gonna pause us for a minute because I have a special offer for parents about procedural safeguards. Ok.
You’re listening to Stress-Free IEP® with Frances Schefter. At Shefter Law, P. A. we provide legal services in Maryland, DC and Florida, as well as advocacy services nationwide and in American schools overseas. Federal law is what guides IEP services and that is why it is a nationwide law that applies to everyone. If you want to know the procedural safeguards that 34-40 page document that the school hands you, if you want that abbreviated onto one page, check out this link where you can download a free version. Thank you.
Yeah. So I mean, it’s, there’s so much for parents to know what is, you know, but let’s let’s you know, putting it in what you do. What should parents know about the assessment process?
DANA ( 00:27:59): Well, no, that’s a good question. And I, what I wanted to say real quick too about the IEP is there’s a present level section and it was interesting, I spent hours assessing this particular girl I mentioned a few times and the present level section in the IEP was barely filled out. That section should be rich with information. Once you put a child through an entire assessment, you have a wealth of information about their learning, strengths, weaknesses, how they’re functioning and that present levels should be the guiding piece that, that present levels drives goals and you know, services and goals and the entire IEP. Right. So whenever I see if that it has not been really, if that’s not rich with information, I think that’s the place to start. But so with that said, I think an assessment, you’re trying to get that information about how to help the child. And so I always tell when we have a, a meeting prior to doing an assessment and we’ve got a group of people together to talk about a child. And I really want to ask some specific questions about what is this child struggling with? Um you know, and examples. I want concrete examples. Well, my child has a weak memory. Well, let’s talk about that. Is it, is it they can’t remember things you show them or wrote memory or is it kind of long term? You know, I mean, let’s, you know, be as specific as you can about your concerns and that helps us develop a battery of tests to really look at the more information a psychologist has going into an assessment, the better they can try and get a picture of what that is. And I think also it’s important for a parent if you are trying to make sure that some things have been done that, that some intervention has been attempted. Like, can this issue be ameliorated through some intervention, the school might be able to put in place without calling it special ed? You know, and, and, and at home are let the school know, hey, these are some things we tried at home and it doesn’t seem to be helping or these are some things we tried at home that have helped. So consider it really should be a collaborative process between home and school to help this child and, and an assessment, like we said earlier is really looking and once you get to that point, then you’re talking about a disability, you’re labeling it a disability and which again, sometimes that needs to happen to but but it would be unfortunate if nothing were tried and sometimes that happens where a child’s been failing long enough that a, a parent will say I just, I want an assessment. I’m, I’m ready.
FRANCES ( 00:31:19): I was gonna say we get, we, I have a lot of people that come to me that the school gives pushback about assessments and they’ll say to wait and see or oh we need to put in some strategies. I mean, it even happened with my own child when she was in preschool and they, they’re giving me this back and forth that they didn’t know what I did for a living. Um, and so I was like, well, here’s the research based instruction strategies that I’ve been doing at home and that the preschool has been doing. And they’re looking at me like, how does she know all this and then I, you know, introduce myself and of course, they gave me all the assessments once I told them what I did, but you shouldn’t have to. Parents, you know, as parents, I tell them all the time. Parents, you trust your gut, trust your instinct, you know, think through everything you do at home for your child because guess what? Those are interventions, it doesn’t only have to be school interventions and, and make your arguments and push and don’t take no for an answer.
DANA ( 00:32:15): No. If, if you really feel like this has gone on, if it’s the same concern and you still have it and, and you’ve had it for a period of time and your gut is telling you something’s wrong. Then absolutely, you, it’s sometimes things go on too long and like I said, the earlier intervention happens, I think the, the better the outcomes, you know? Absolutely. I, I think it, it’s, and also then the child isn’t as far behind, you know, so they,
FRANCES ( 00:32:53): And what I say is the self esteem.
DANA ( 00:32:55): Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
FRANCES ( 00:32:57): So impacts because if you’re like, I wasn’t a good speller. And so for how many years I thought I wasn’t smart enough. It, it killed my self esteem. Um You know, I even had a, a high school teacher. Um Tell me that I, I wasn’t good at writing. My, my, my writing was a little weird. Um or not, I’m trying to remember the word he used but just like, not, not very organized like to say to a kid. And meanwhile, when I finally got the guts to go to law school, I was in law review.
DANA ( 00:33:27): Yeah. You
FRANCES ( 00:33:28): know what I mean? And that’s like, you know, like he said what he thought, but obviously it was there in my brain. It just, I hadn’t been taught how to do it right.
DANA ( 00:33:37): And also I think what that goes to show is that things that you say to Children, whether it’s a teacher or are impactful, I mean, sometimes these, these comments or things that are said can last, like you said, a lifetime and, and kids internalize them. And so I always approach assessment as it’s, it’s like a puzzle. I get to figure out and I tell kids out we’re gonna work together to try and figure out how your brain works. I, I learned so much about you from doing this and it should be a positive experience and usually it is. I’ve had kids say to me when we’re done, I don’t get to come back anymore. And I said, no, we’re we’re finished and, and then they’ll come back in and visit anyway. But it, it should be. And again, when we talk about the changes I’ve seen over the years in special education, it has become because special ed has grown so much, it has become more instead of a collaborative process about helping a child and figuring it out together based on a team of people, parents, educators working collaboratively. It has become more contentious and adversarial and and that’s unfortunate and, but it, it’s a system that is, I mean, special ed, it has grown so much. The numbers are just, you know, I had a principal tell me once, if it’s the only game in town, parents are gonna try and get the help that way, you know. So again, if we don’t have the good universal instruction in place and we’re not supporting kids earlier on, then it does become the only game in town. So, yeah.
FRANCES ( 00:35:25): And that makes, yeah, that makes sense. It’s just so I love that you incorporate the kids so much and, and you know, there’s, I have often times potential clients and people I meet, you know, well, should I do the school assessment or should I do the private assessment? And we have that a lot and I usually, we have to delve in a little bit. Well, what, what results are you looking for? You know, what do you think like if somebody’s looking for, if they think something’s wrong and they’re not sure if they trust the school. Should they push the school to do it or if they can, do you think they should do it privately?
DANA ( 00:35:59): I think if, if I just know that in a, in a private setting there is the luxury of, of delving in more. Um, although I’ve seen some private assessments that aren’t, aren’t real thorough. So I think it’s about, again, each case is really individual. But if the parent is not getting much cooperation from the school and they’ve had to fight to get as far as the assessment process, then I think maybe that’s when it’s time to say, ok, I, I’m not getting the help I need here. So maybe I need to look at finding a professional outside of the school setting or like you, you, you bring a professional with you to a meeting and have the school to do it then and knowing that you have some backup and it’s too bad. It has to be that way. But sometimes in order to get an assessment done or yeah, it, it, there, it’s unfortunate.
FRANCES ( 00:37:04): I used to say like I remember what my teaching years and stuff that when I’m a parent, I don’t want to be that parent that the school talks about. And now as a parent, I do want to be that parent because if you’re not, who else is going to be? You know, and you don’t have to do it negative. You don’t have to do it mean. But advocate for your child don’t take no for an answer.
DANA ( 00:37:28): And you know, talking about when you said that some of the comments that teacher made stayed with you. I just, and so in a private practice, I also work with adults. I just had, I assessed a, a woman who was in her second year of law school and she suspected all along she had a learning disability and compensated all the way through school. So sometimes, you know, going through life feeling like something’s wrong and you don’t ever have it, anybody really explain to you. Yeah, this is what’s going on and, and this is your unique brain and how it works. This is why you struggle with this or that, this is why this or that is hard for you. I mean, she cried when we finished everything and I told her what was, you know, what was going on. And so I think again, just getting back to the earlier, you can support a child and, and answer questions. So a parent again, if they’re not getting, if they feel like the school district is really pushing back and not being collaborative, then sometimes but not all parents are able to do that. I mean, I’ve worked in schools where the parents that’s just not an option to go get, to go see private.
FRANCES ( 00:38:44): Although sometimes insurance does cover it. So in some instances.
DANA ( 00:38:50): Insurance covers some of mine. So that’s, and that’s something a lot of parents don’t know. I had this parent go back and look at their policy and it actually said psychoeducational evaluations were covered. So, and she did get it covered. So that was great.
FRANCES ( 00:39:07): Yeah. Yeah. And that’s something like, you know, I, I, I tell parents sometimes that if you’re getting so much of a pushback of the school even assessing your child, it’s going to be a battle to get eligibility to get the IEP, right? And all of that. So sometimes it makes sense to do the independent evaluation first because you don’t have to fight for that and then it saves your energy. Let’s fight for the eligibility and keep going and sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn’t, of course. Um, but it’s, you know, it’s, this is your child and the rest of your life, you know, the rest of your child’s life.
DANA ( 00:39:41): Yes. Absolutely. And especially a child that has a lot of years to get through school, you know, and this woman that was in law school that contacted me, I mean, had it been identified much earlier, that might have made a whole difference in how she, you know, saw herself and her learning pattern. So, yeah. Yeah,
FRANCES ( 00:40:03): Definitely. I feel like we could talk all day just noticing the time and I’m like, ah, but so I know you said that, the people drove two hours to you. Do you only do assessments in person?
DANA ( 00:40:18): I, you know, since, since COVID these test companies, a lot of them have come out with tests that you can administer online and, and a lot of psychologists are doing them online and trying to do a full assessment online. I prefer not to, I can I feel like I get so much rich information from spending time face to face with the child, watch or, or the adolescent or the teenager or the adult and watching how they approach a task. Their frustration level, I mean, anxiety, I learn a lot about their behavioral patterns and not just their brain but I, I just, it’s just like doing, I’ve done counseling online, administer counseling services to kids. And I, I just, I really prefer the information you get from doing an assessment in person. I feel like is, is much richer but yes, I can do them online but I much prefer doing them in person and having that opportunity. This family brought that I assessed this little girl I keep mentioning they brought the dog the rabbit. I met the sister. I mean, I had everybody in my office and I got a lot of information about the whole family and, and this child’s world, you know.
FRANCES ( 00:41:40): That makes sense because, you know, it’s, you know, and then we could go in the whole thing of the nature versus nurture and, you know, cultural and all that other stuff. It would be a whole another show. Um, but it makes sense like, yeah, I mean, I agree that assessment while sometimes it has to be virtual and it can be, I agree that reports are better when it’s in person because there’s the more of the connection also.
DANA ( 00:42:01): Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And you just learn so much more about the child and the whole, all of it, you know, because it is a puzzle. I approach each one of these as a puzzle and, and yeah, I, I know this has gone fast and I wanna, I do, I was gonna say, we talked about that. I just so, you know, and you brought up, I think one thing I hear a lot about is, is mental health issues since the pandemic. And I think, I, I have seen an increase in anxious kids and we’re, we’re humans, we’re wired for connection and I think the pandemic, none of us adults, children, we didn’t get the connection that we need as human beings. And so, kids weren’t able to connect and express their feelings. And so I think that’s something else as a psychologist can, you know, is I love that piece of working with kids is helping them identify and express their feelings. And tools for, for processing their emotions. Because I just, I feel like that’s such an important piece in terms of learning challenges. You can’t teach a kid that’s not ready to learn. If there’s anxiety, if there’s an emotional component going on, you really have to address that as well. So I don’t think we could get through this show talking about that piece of it because I think that and I also think when we talk about changes I’ve seen in my career, I, I more trauma, kids that have experienced more our world, there’s a lot more going on in our world. And I and kids that have experienced trauma and are bringing that trauma into their learning environment. And sometimes teachers besides having a learning difference, sometimes kids have this emotional baggage too. So teachers are amazing people. I mean, what they’re expected to do during the day and the, the number of roles they have to play. I just, it’s, it’s really incredible that what teachers do. And I, I think,
FRANCES ( 00:44:25): Yeah, one thing I wanna say on that because then we have to wrap up is that I always have to tell teachers if a child struggling in your class, it’s not anything wrong with you as the teacher or you teaching because a lot of times I get that, “I’m doing the best I can”. We know that 100% this child learns differently. It’s not on the teachers, it’s just the child learns differently and let’s find out how to get the supports in place, not only for the child but for the teachers as well. It helps everybody. But this is awesome. I definitely need to have you back on the show because we could do the whole another one on the mental health issue. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for being on the show and I know we have, we’re gonna have all of your links in the show notes so that people know how to get in touch with you.
DANA ( 00:45:16): And if you get to California, Frances, I, I will take you to lunch or something. Definitely.
FRANCES ( 00:45:22): Definitely. Thank you.
DANA ( 00:45:24): All right.
VOICEOVER ( 00:45:26): You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEP®. With your host Frances Shefter. Remember you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through ShefterLaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments and sharing the show with others through YouTube, LinkedIn, Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher and more.
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