In this episode of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter speaks with Jennifer Shutts, a certified parent coach and mental health nurse practitioner at Willow Tree Parenting, specializing in supporting parents of neurodiverse children. Shutts, a mother of three neurodiverse kids herself, brings her expertise to the forefront, guiding parents through the complexities of advocating for their children’s needs in the education system.
Tune in to the episode to hear about:
Expertise and Advocacy: Jennifer Shutts, a certified parent coach and mental health nurse practitioner, specializes in supporting mothers of neurodiverse children through advocacy and education.
Collaborative Support: Trained as an IEP parent partner, Jennifer guides parents through the complexities of the educational system, advocating for their children’s needs.
Early Intervention Focus: Jennifer emphasizes early intervention and parental education to address demand avoidance effectively.
Mindful Parenting: Jennifer promotes strengths-based approaches to parenting and education, focusing on embracing neurodiversity.
Holistic Support: Jennifer stresses the importance of communication between professionals and parents to provide personalized support for each child’s unique needs.
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP® experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
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On website: https://shefterlaw.com/blog
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Voiceover ( 00:00:00): Welcome to Stress-Free IEP®. You do not need to do it all alone with your host, Frances Shefter, Principal of Shefter Law. You can get more details and catch prior episodes at www.shefterlaw.com. The Stress-Free IEP® video podcast is also posted on youtube and linkedin and you can listen to episodes through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher and more. Now, here’s the host of Stress-Free IEP®. Frances Shefter.
Frances Shefter ( 00:00:36): Hello, everyone and welcome to our show. Today’s guest is Jennifer Shutts. Did I say that? Right? I think so with Willow tree parenting out in Seattle, Washington. So Jen, tell us a little bit about yourself and what, what Willow Tree parenting is all about. Yeah.
Jen Shutts ( 00:00:53): Hi. So glad to be here. So, thank you. Um So I am a mother of three neuro diverse kids. So we have all the diagnosis in our house. Um I am a parent coach, a certified parent coach. I work with mothers specifically who have kids with special needs, um uh autism. A DH do CD anxiety. Um Excuse me, I’m also a mental health nurse practitioner. So I work with the kids in my practice um, I am an IEP parent partner, which just means that I’ve been, um, trained through our, um, county here in Seattle, Washington to go in and be an advocate for parents who need assistance in IEP processes. And then I, um, do trauma, um, I’m trauma certified. Um, because I also work with foster and adoptive parents.
Frances Shefter ( 00:01:48): Wow. So that’s something we have connected connection. I do a lot of work with DC Superior Court Foster system as a, as an education attorney. And then I’m also my family, we foster kids out in Maryland as well because that’s where like it’s, I live, I love when I talk to people because you never know who’s out there that, you know, that, that community is so needed. Um And I love that, that your county actually certifies, coaches in IEP process. Is that like, so then do you like, do parents pay you or do you work through the county? Like, how does that work?
Jen Shutts ( 00:02:26): So it’s, um actually it’s a national organization called ARC ARC. Um There’s, yeah, the ARC. So we have Arc of Washington State and then we have ARCs for the different counties. And so the ARC of King County, um that organization does training for parents um to become a parent, it’s called a parent to parents um advocate. And so we’re trained through the IEP process. Um and all the for nuances, I mean, it’s so technical and that when parents get thrown in and you’re facing like the school system, like it could be, you know, very scary and overwhelming. Um, and so if someone is just kind of stuck or needs some support, we can go in, um, a lot of it now is virtual unfortunately, but you go in and you’re there with the parent to help kind of just be an advocate and, um, just be another set of eyes and ears for a parent because you’re just like, you know, a deer in headlights,
Frances Shefter ( 00:03:25): right? What I tell my clients is that you guys can be the parent at the meeting. Don’t worry about it. I will catch everything. I will have it all listening. Um, you know, just be the parent. That’s why I’m there to support you, um, say whatever you want, you know, give your input. I always tell my clients there’s nothing you can say in an IEP meeting that I can’t turn around to what my client is trying to say is and put it in teacher terms,
Jen Shutts ( 00:03:50): right? Thank God for what you do. It is so, so needed and that having that support and knowledge because there’s just so many little new, like I said, nuances in terms that as a parent is just so overwhelming,
Frances Shefter ( 00:04:05): right? And that, that’s why I say often like educate yourself. Like that’s the first thing as a parent, I mean, I both my kids are more diverse as well. Um, and just educate yourself. That’s part of the reason I have this show of like, what’s out there. Who can you get there and, you know, start with a parent coach. I always say that as well. If you’re already in a disagreement, then yes, you probably need to hit an attorney instead of an advocate or a parent coach or something. But if you’re just, I don’t understand, I don’t know what to do. I, I highly recommend parent coaches and advocates all of the time. Um, because it’s, you know, like, yes attorneys are expensive, but then when you look at it, it’s, you know, this is your kid’s future. What’s it worth?
Jen Shutts ( 00:04:42): Right? And I say, you know, start as early as you can, that the younger, um, that you can to really fight to get those, that foundation of learning for your kids and the right goals and the right accommodations because it just keeps building and building and the harder it is as time goes on,
Frances Shefter ( 00:05:01): that is so true. Yeah, I mean, I always say that the earlier the better and, you know, like I don’t want to say, overload them, it’s not really overload them but provide as many supports and backgrounds as you can to prevent because a lot of times I don’t know if you see it also, but like with our autistic kids and even sometimes our a DH kids, they mask so much and then they fall behind but they’re so smart. They manage to not show that they’re falling behind until like 3rd and 4th grade where it starts really, getting more difficult.
Jen Shutts ( 00:05:33): Absolutely. I, um, the masking is a really, really key piece that parents and even, you know, parents and teachers are like, oh, they’re fine. They don’t need help. They’re doing, especially, I see a lot of girls and, um, teenage girls in my practice as a health care provider who come in and they’re like super anxious and depressed because they have been undiagnosed and they have been masking all this time because they’re people pleasing or they don’t want to get in trouble and they’re keeping it together and it has nothing to do with and they’re embarrassed, it has nothing to do with intelligence, it has to do with, they just think differently. And so, um the masking is really uh a really hard one to pull that off. And I’ve been trying to teach my kids, you know, you be you my friend, you are, you, you’re a unique person, you have your own superpower and let’s live into that and let’s focus on your strengths and then have the scaffolding that you need through school. But I don’t ever want you to like, pretend to be somebody you’re not. If you don’t want to, you can choose to do that in certain situations,
Frances Shefter ( 00:06:44): right? But I’ve seen and tell me if you’ve seen this also. But I’ve also seen a lot of their kids. They don’t even realize they’re masking because society is telling them to do this to be this way, to act that way and they don’t know that it’s diff, it’s not difficult for other people and, and what they’re doing, they’re just trying to be a good kid. So, have you seen that a lot?
Jen Shutts ( 00:07:07): Yes. I think it depends on, like, the environment that is cultivated at home and at school and then also individually with the child of like, are they just a natural born people pleaser? Are they a natural born introvert? And that’s just they don’t want to draw attention to themselves. Um And so I like, I have organic conversations with my kids all the time and just to kind of live into their own person and their identity and but kids have a sense of wanting to belong. And so especially as they get into those Tween years, which I’m in the thick of that right now with I got to 10 and 11
Frances Shefter ( 00:07:50): years. So I’m getting there like, just on that.
Jen Shutts ( 00:07:54): I’m like, what’s happening. Um And so I can see that he is now like trying to fit in and trying to like he’s in, he’s got an IP he’s, you know, being pulled out every so often and he’s kind of resisting that. So I’m still have these continual conversations of like, this is what you need, you need to, you know, like teaching them how to advocate for themselves but also knowing how they’re gonna feel good about the bone selves as well. Like, I don’t want to feed into that anxiety. Don’t want to feed into that sadness. And that self worth is pretty huge, especially with, um, you know, autistic and a DH D kids.
Frances Shefter ( 00:08:38): Yeah, that’s, and that’s a conversation I have often with my clients of like, yes, the school system has to supply this. Yes, the school system has to do this. But is it right for your child? You know, because sometimes sometimes I’ll say, like, look and, like, what I’m doing with my own kids, you know? Yeah, you can get them pulled out but then they’re missing content and that’s raising the anxiety. Whereas if you do tutoring at home, you know, you’re getting the same thing. Yes, it’s costing you money. But you’re looking at the whole child.
Jen Shutts ( 00:9:9): Right. And, and, like, what that child needs and where they are developmentally because it changes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Frances Shefter ( 00:9:17): And so, and I’d love that, that I shouldn’t say I love, but the fact that you’re a parent just probably makes you so much better as a coach. Like, the same for me. Like, I’m a better attorney because I’ve been a special ed teacher. I’ve been a regular teacher and I’m a parent so I can, I know where you are. Right. And so how do you find that helps you? Like, when you support families in IUP meetings.
Jen Shutts ( 00:9:39): Yeah. Um Thank you. I, I do feel like I have the lived experience. I’m in the thick of it at home. I myself have a DH D um I work at it, you know, work in the mental health field and I also um work with parent coaching so I am in it. I breathe it. I live it and I feel called to help other parents because I remember how I was years and years and years ago when with the diagnosis and trying to navigate and then you have the healthcare system bombarding you with, you know, you should do this and then the parenting books that not all the parenting books are aimed for our kids. So it’s just like this rough road. And so, um you know, when I do talk to my, my clients, I it’s not like a one size fits all because everybody is so different, you know, one autistic child is different than another autistic child. I mean, all three of my kids have a DH D and they’re all completely different. So everything is kind of tailored for the individual child, the family. Um and then also that changes over time, you know, my, my eight year old is autistic and he’s a very different person than he was, you know, just a year ago. So,
Frances Shefter ( 00:11:00): yeah, and it’s, you know. Right. And it also matters what you as a parent that you want. For your child, which is always a challenge because we want the best for our kids. We’re parents, like, of course, obviously. But what does that look like? And what do you think that looks like? And it’s, it’s hard when they’re younger because they’re not, they don’t have an idea of what it should look like, you know, like when they hit high school. Ok, this is what I want my life to look like and we can go that way, but when they’re younger it’s like, what do you think is the best thing? Do you think being in a special ed school is where they need to be? Do you think staying in the general education population is where they need to be? What, you know, like, what do you think as the parent? Because honestly it’s the parent that knows the most at any IUP meeting because it’s their kid, right? Like they do, they might, yeah, they might not know the education and the special ed and the curriculum but they know their kid and they know what their kid needs.
Jen Shutts ( 00:11:59): You are like, you hit the nail on the head and like some parents will go in and they just don’t want to rock the boat or they don’t want to like, you know, make enemy, like you’re not really fighting, you’re not supposed to be fighting technically, but going in and just listening to your gut and saying, I know what my kid needs. I know what is right. I see it at home and let me explain that to you and show you what my child needs and I don’t know um, about you and um, when you work with your clients, do you encourage the, the kids to attend IEP meetings or is it too far in like the process with the, the legal battle
Frances Shefter ( 00:12:42): when they’re older? Like high school kids? I always say they come for part of it. Not all of it because it’s hard for them to sit through like the present levels and everything. But when it comes to supplementary aids and accommodations, I like the high school kids to be in there because they can tell us they could, once they hit high school, they’re the, they’re the experts, you know, and they can say like, yeah, you know what, when you give me this, it helps but it doesn’t help when you do that. So like let’s get the IEP tailored to what the child thinks they need. So, but younger. No. Yeah, because I just, it’s a lot, I mean, maybe middle school, depending on what the parents think with the middle school are. But again, it’s just like for that part of it of like just asking them, what do you see? What do you need? What do you want? What do you think, you know, where you want to be? But that’s, you know, that’s so big a part of my practice is finding what the parent wants as the ultimate outcome and then we can reverse engineer it and get to like. So now this is what we need to do in each grade level as we grow older to get to that ultimate goal.
Jen Shutts ( 00:13:51): Ok. So yeah, I see um in my, my clinical practice, I see the Children. So on the coaching side, I work with parents in my clinical practice. I work with Children and teens. Um and it’s just, it’s interesting to have both different sides of what the kids are experiencing and their lived experience and then the parents lived experience and how they are struggling, you know, to understand what’s going on with their kids. Um and where they need support. So it’s sometimes it’s very fragmented and other times it’s, you know, I come in and I help align both of them. So it’s more of a, a community connected effort for both,
Frances Shefter ( 00:14:33): right? Which makes sense. But it, and it’s hard because, you know, as parents, we have dreams for our kids and what we want them to do and be and, you know, and it’s like, you know what, it’s ok if they don’t go to college, it’s ok if they choose, you know, like whatever it is, like we need to, I don’t know if it’s like living vicariously through our kids or what, but like let go of our dreams for our child and let’s develop your child to reach their full potential. Oh
Jen Shutts ( 00:14:59): my gosh, Frances. That was beautiful. Like, yeah, what you say I like all the time. I have to like check, um I’ve had to check my expectations and that’s kind of where we start with parenting. The coaching. Is that ok? What is your expectations? And we may have to grieve and, you know, change and alter what, you know, what you think your control is on their dreams and their path because that may be different.
Frances Shefter ( 00:15:26): Right? No, that’s so true. Yeah, it is a grieving process because it’s, you know, like, yeah, our kids not gonna be a rocket scientist but that’s ok. You know,
Jen Shutts ( 00:15:37): that’s ok and they all have, you know, beautiful superpowers and it’s um sometimes like it’s rewarding like when they talk about like especially kids with a DH D who are hyperactive and all they do is just like excessively talk and talk and talk. I’m like, ok, let’s reward that and reframe that and make that a positive um aspect like they’re social and they can get along with others and um putting that spin and making things a little bit more positive.
Frances Shefter ( 00:16:08): Right? Yeah. And that, that’s part of the things I like don’t like about the IEPs is they focus so much on the negative instead of pulling the positive of like these are the kids trains, let’s use these to build the um but you know, it’s just, it’s never going to be perfect, you know, we do with what we can. And so I think I want to talk about like with um like advocating with the school and the medical team. Like, do you have that a lot since you do you know you are a clinician outside as well? How does that work with bridging with the school?
Jen Shutts ( 00:16:41): I actually um those are, for me, those are two separate things. Um especially since one is like a medical, my, you know, medical license that I have to kind of keep separate from um the coaching piece and the IEP piece. But I, I can be um hired specifically if um parents need me to go in and talk about like if the school is fighting like a diagnosis because I do a lot of a DH D diagnosing um for in my practice. So parents will come in and say this is what’s happening, you know, we need a diagnosis and so I then can, you know, go through the diagnosis process and the education and then I can um provide those documentations for the school and then if the school pushes back and says, you know, this is not, you know, acceptable. So it’s that kind of whole nuance of like help building the um the parents um um medical, like I said, documentation for the school so they can get those supports in place. But I um I’m hired differently to go into to talk about because they’re separate pieces. Yeah,
Frances Shefter ( 00:17:55): that makes sense. But there’s, I mean, I’m sure like in both sides though, encouragement of the medical side talking with the school side. So that, that especially like for your patients that you see, so that the school knows what you’re working on and they know what you’re working on, you know, and so, or vice versa, you know what the school is working on and that, that it can be fluid and like the same type of techniques being used, right?
Jen Shutts ( 00:18:22): Yes, I um I speak to a lot of school counselors just so we are connected and we’re using the same language and the same supports. Um I will ask, you know, like, what are you doing in there? Like in these situations, especially um kids who now are being well, they can’t be diagnosed with PD A um here in the United States because it’s not a, it’s not a DS M five, but there’s more and more kids um who had that profile of autism. And so um that is a whole different ball game for kids who are autistic versus the autistic PD A. Um And so school is really like even more difficult for them in terms of like the um the demand avoidance and trying to equalize the behaviors. So um that, that’s another layer that’s really been very difficult for some schools to understand.
Frances Shefter ( 00:19:19): Yeah, you know, it’s PDA is coming out more and more and more I’ve had, you know, I have kids that have it and, and, you know, for those that don’t understand, I know it’s, it’s, I always say it wrong, pervasive demand avoidance. And so somebody else, somebody on my show said, um, persistent drive for autonomy. And I’m like that because that’s what it is, you know, with PDA and I know, you know, it’s challenging because our schools know nothing about it. Um, and it’s challenging of like, what supports can we put in place for our PDA kids because of the demand issues?
Jen Shutts ( 00:19:58): Exactly. Well, and there’s even healthcare providers that, um, are not aware of PDA because, you know, like I said, like here in the United States it’s not a medical diagnosis. Um, and so there’s not a lot of providers who are privy, um, or educated in it. So it’s, you know, it’s based out of, um, UK, there’s a huge, um, society over there that, um, and that’s where the diagnosis is accepted and then also in Australia. Um, and there’s two really great um, uh, providers out there, Casey Ehrlich and um, Christy Forbes are the huge forerunners of the PDA. So if parents need some, um, resources, those are some really great. I
Frances Shefter ( 00:20:47): just, yeah, I just started file, um, a client told me about Casey Ehrlich I love her posts because it’s so eye opening of the reality of why it’s so different and how as parents even so like not even looking at the school system, but as parents, how we can adjust how we’re talking to our child to make it easier.
Jen Shutts ( 00:21:9): Absolutely. I hear at home I, I use um because we were getting into that, that kind of fight with my child and myself with the demands or the requests. And so I actually use our Alexa and I put um requests through Alexa, so I have them scheduled and Alexa will, you know, come and say it out loud for him to do rather than it coming from me myself. And so it takes away that layer of like, here’s, you know, mom nagging me again, we’re kind of um unequal in our hierarchy. And so it comes from a neutral party and he can say, you know, whether he chooses to do it or not or snooze. So it’s been actually really helpful in taking that layer off of. Um
Frances Shefter ( 00:21:56): Yeah, no, that’s awesome because I think I don’t remember if it was Casey’s or somebody else’s but on Instagram, I was scrolling through today and um somebody was saying of like instead of telling your PD a child pick up that sock from the floor, it’s would you be able to pick up that sock from the floor? You know, because then it’s their choice and it’s not a demand put on them and like simple language things which even without PDA, I mean, for every child, I mean, I don’t know what teenager doesn’t say no. You know what I mean to their parent. Whereas if you kind of make it a challenge or like, you know, can you do that then I think kids are going to want to do it more. Right.
Jen Shutts ( 00:22:34): Right. Well, you, you have to have that. My kids are always going to say no, like you said, but also as a parent, we need to check our own triggers. Like what triggers me from then getting into like, well, you know, you need to respect me and like, how dare you talk back to me. And so it’s like checking our own parenting style and what triggers us? Like I learned my own triggers back in COVID is my triggers was noise because we were all home. I have three boys, we’re all neurodivergent and I was like, what is, what’s wrong with me? And I realize it’s noise. And so I have some clients whose trigger is disrespect. I have another one who’s lying. So we’ve had to kind of work through our own triggers to like get into our own regulation. So we stay connected and that our kids feel safe to be able to say no and they feel like, OK, this is a safe environment. My mom’s not going to freak out on me, I’m safe and we’re still connected because that’s when that’s when the beauty happens,
Frances Shefter ( 00:23:41): right? That’s so important. And you know, it’s interesting, you say that because the foster parent training, like the initial training talk, you kind of talk about parenting styles and stuff because when you, you know, our own kid, it’s different. You know, when you bring in a foster child with their trauma and their background, it’s important to know our triggers because it’s such a different and, you know, we try to connect with those kids as well, whether they’re in our home for two days or two weeks or a month. Um because they need that connection. Uh But yeah, I mean, the connection is so important that like how I’m trying to think of like how to word it. But like, I like, do you have pointers for parents of how to help them get that connection even when they’re in that, you know, disagreement mode?
Jen Shutts ( 00:24:27): Yeah, I um so I’ve learned how to read cues. So it’s really important for parents to like, take a step back and um being, I know this word is used a lot and some people call it woo woo, but like being mindful. So being mindful and aware of what your kids cues are. So I have a, a specific kid that I can tell exactly the look on his face and he kind of starts to like, it’s almost like he’s watching for something and he’s almost in this like um attack mode, like pre attack mode. So we need to figure out where our kids are going and what their triggers are, what our triggers are because you want to catch it. Um I have an, I’m gonna back up and say like sensory also comes into play with all of this. So I have a sensory seeker, I have a sensory avoider. And so finding that zone where things are um calm and regulated for ourselves and for them, it’s this dance of trying to figure out. So I work with parents specifically on that zone, um, of knowing what their personal zone is and regulating and then where their kids start to go either, um, above or beyond that zone. And so it’s our job as a parent to learn how to, like, regulate ourselves. So we can help our kid because we can’t, I mean, it’s not our kid’s job to regulate. That’s our job is to parent. So even like a lot of parents come to me and they’re like, I need help with their behaviors, their behaviors are so out of control. Um, that’s what the parents think, but really, it’s actually coming from us and not the kid, it’s our job to, like, help them and learn that together as a, as a family.
Frances Shefter ( 00:26:22): That makes sense because it’s, it is behaviors are reactions to their environment and what’s happening at that point in time. Um, and like gone are the days of like when we grew up, you know, at least when I grew up, I know and my husband, it was, you did what you did what our parents said because they were our parents period. Like, you know, like you like that. Was it like if you didn’t, you got backhanded or, you know, something like that? But, um, but it was just, I, I don’t know, like, it never like to defy my parents and, you know, um, I mean, yeah, obviously I wasn’t a perfect kid. Like, you know, my mom’s probably watching going uh Yeah, yeah, you did that, you know, but, but it’s just like, it’s so like our environment today is so different from when, you know, the parents were kids of what’s available and what’s out there and what um what our kids need, especially, you know, after COVID with all of that, that just added such a different layer on top.
Jen Shutts ( 00:27:23): Well, and also um I actually, I just went to um uh a training for like anxiety for, you know, for my, my practice and it specifically was for tweens and teens and anxiety and there was some, you know, other parents there who were like, well, I didn’t have to do this and, you know, my day when I grow up and like you said, there were so like this is how I was raised. I’m gonna continue down that path. It worked. I turned out OK? But our world is so different than when we grew up. I mean, we have like the immediacy of like you can order something and it’ll come to our door in a couple hours. We have immediate information getting on our phones. Our kids are isolated because, um, of just that relationship of not being as connected as we were. Like, I’m sure same for you. We were thrown out. Um, outside parents were like, come back at dinner time, you know,
Frances Shefter ( 00:28:26): the, the street lights come on and that
Jen Shutts ( 00:28:28): doesn’t happen anymore. And so you can’t take how you were, were raised in that time frame, you know, even 10 years ago because it’s so different now. Um And so we have to think about it differently in a different lens, right?
Frances Shefter ( 00:28:44): And that’s the thing, it’s not. Yeah, like I say, I say, um I used to say to my dad all the time that, you know, like, yeah, he screwed up when we were kids, but he did the best he could with what he knew. And that’s the thing his parents like, you know what, it’s tough parenting period, no matter what knowledge you have, you know, doctors, teachers, every knowledge because every kid is different and, and, and it’s just, you know, it’s interesting how much I know for me how much I’ve grown as a person, becoming a parent in growing as a parent to help support my kids to get that connection and, and try and bring peace to the house.
Jen Shutts ( 00:29:29): Right? Well, you, and then also like for, for you with your um IEP meetings and working with the school system is, the schools don’t see what the kids are going through at home, especially with the, the masking. You know, they, they see like, oh, your kids been like beautiful reports. They’re quiet, they’re calm, they’re receptive and in that home it’s like they’ve exploded and there’s like, um, you know, throwing things and yelling and slamming doors and the school doesn’t see that. So it’s that kind of, you have to work together to see like, what is working at school? Is it really working at school? What is working at home? Is it really working at school and trying to like, put the kid in the, in the center and saying, ok, what is it that they need? And what is the diagnosis and we need to go from there to figure out those supports and everybody should be on the same, should be on the same page of talking about things, you know, you have you going in and helping, you know, people like me to go in and help and be that voice,
Frances Shefter ( 00:30:38): right? And to that connection because I’ve had it, I’ve had several cases in which the school says, well, I don’t see any of that. It’s a home problem. It’s a parenting problem. It’s your problem. And I’ve on numerous occasions at IEP meeting said, well, this is the problem. The child is holding it all together all day and when then they get home, they can finally be themselves. And if they weren’t having to hold themselves together all day because they had supports in place, it would be much better for everyone. And the way I describe it for, for teachers to understand or for the whole team to understand, as I say, like, think about you having a really rough day and your boss is on top of you and this and you’re holding it all together because you have to do that. You know, you can’t cuss out your boss. Obviously, you can’t go run out, you know, run to the beach or whatever, but you’re holding it together and when you get home, you go for a run, you have a glass of wine, you have this, well, imagine that every single day and not having that outlet. And that’s when I see the light bulbs go off for teachers of what this is reality for these kids.
Jen Shutts ( 00:31:45): Absolutely. I mean, even the smallest thing for, especially kids who have sensory issues, even like a, um, flicker of lights at schools can set them off or noises or people in their space. And I’ve had um, school saying, well, I don’t know what the trigger was like. They were totally fine. I didn’t put a demand on them. And I’m like, oh gosh, there’s so many, so many things even like just like your facial expression, especially kids, you know, with PD A, if they think that you’re mad at them or you have a, like a look on your face or your body language can just like, set them into this like fight or flight and feeling like they need to equalize. So there’s so many different little pieces that um the more support, the more education, like what you’re doing is just what everybody needs so we can um be informed
Frances Shefter ( 00:32:40): and learn how to be proactive. That’s a big thing like learning those triggers and that’s what, you know, functional behavior assessments are supposed to be, you know, like go and see like what’s happening, what’s triggering and what, you know, so it’s different with our to kids, especially with the PD A. But the functional behavior assessment can come in handy because at least it helps us with the triggers. So it might not be a replacement behavior, it might be a, let’s replace what the triggers are and figure out to be proactive they are, right? So, and so when you go in, I was just going to say with coaching, like, so you do coaching in the sense of going to IEP meetings with parents. And then do you also do like individual coaching of just teaching parents of how to connect with their kids and like, what does that look like?
Jen Shutts ( 00:33:26): Yes, I actually I have a few different hats. So I do the IEP go into the IEP um with parents. I also do executive function coaching um for kids with a DH D who need to work on those skills. Um You know, I am a medication prescriber, but I also really believe that medication is not the, you know, the, the ultimate tool. I mean, there’s no way that a medication is going to teach you how to organize. So I, I teach the different executive function skills so people can be successful as they get older. Um And then the other piece is parent coaching. So working with parents on the different challenges that they see individually. So, you know, one parent, it may be the behavioral challenges, another parent, it may be the school um or another 1 may be sensory. So I actually individualize my work with the um with the parents on their challenges that they perceive and then we dive deeper into that connection and that regulation with the with the entire family.
Frances Shefter ( 00:34:31): So it’s not therapy, it’s definitely not
Jen Shutts ( 00:34:33): therapy. It’s not the right
Frances Shefter ( 00:34:35): even though technically you’re places to be a therapist, but it’s more, but I like it because it’s more coaching because I know a lot of people like, I don’t need therapy. I’m the, you know, like, but it’s not, it’s, it’s learning how to be a better parent basically, right?
Jen Shutts ( 00:34:49): There’s tricks, there’s strategies. Um And then there’s like I said, that kind of that awareness so we can change, we’re moving forward there p typically is like diving into like the past and what has occurred in the past in healing versus like, you know, when, like you mentioned, um the trauma, so working with families and kids who, you know, foster adoptive that have trauma in the past and healing that whereas coaching is working on the, the present and trying to move forward with a, with a better pathway,
Frances Shefter ( 00:35:24): right? That is awesome. So I know you’re in Seattle, we said that do you, are you just in Seattle area or do you provide coaching virtually for other areas? I
Jen Shutts ( 00:35:34): do, I do um, virtually for, for everybody. Um, actually just had a client in Germany, um, which is a little tricky with the time change.
Frances Shefter ( 00:35:44): I had two, I’ve had two clients in Germany. That’s so funny.
Jen Shutts ( 00:35:48): Yeah. Um I think because I was on a podcast, um that was based uh internationally, which was fabulous. But, um, yes, I do it just anywhere that works out and then I also can do a face to face here in Seattle.
Frances Shefter ( 00:36:04): That’s great. And so if people want to get in touch with you on any of your hats and need help, what’s the best way for them to do that?
Jen Shutts ( 00:36:11): Well, thank you. Um So my um, website is willow tree parenting.com. Um I chose Willow Tree because a tree, that tree, it needs to um be flexible and it bends and it adapts, which is what us as parents need to do. We need to be flexible and adapt and bend, especially working with um neurodivergent kids. Um, and then my email is master coach at Willow tree.com. And
Frances Shefter ( 00:36:39): I know that I know and I just had somebody just did a comment. Um, so somebody watching live is like, thinks it’s great that it’s international because it is true. Like I know for me, um, internationals because American schools internationally have to follow the federal laws here. So, which a lot of, I didn’t know until I knew that. But, um, and I know I’ve had somebody on my, I’m trying to remember who but somebody else has been on my um show that does international as well because even though it’s not the same laws in the school system as a parent, we definitely, I mean, it is international. Obviously, we’re all parents, you know, it doesn’t matter what country we’re in. So I love that you’re available to do that as well. Wow. Um Thank you so much and I know we’re going to put everything in the show notes of how people can contact you. This has been absolutely wonderful. Thank you so much for being on my show. Thank
Jen Shutts ( 00:37:30): you so much Frances and thank you for what you do for, for educating people. This has been really vital for people.
Frances Shefter ( 00:37:36): Thank you.
Voiceover ( 00:37:38): You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEP® with your host, Frances Shefter. Remember you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through Shefterlaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments and sharing the show with others through youtube linkedin Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher and more.
Supporting Mothers of Neurodiverse Children with Jennifer Shutts
Stress-Free IEP® with Frances Shefter, Episode 48
In this episode of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances Shefter speaks with Jennifer Shutts, a certified parent coach and mental health nurse practitioner at Willow Tree Parenting, specializing in supporting parents of neurodiverse children. Shutts, a mother of three neurodiverse kids herself, brings her expertise to the forefront, guiding parents through the complexities of advocating for their children’s needs in the education system.
Tune in to the episode to hear about:
Learn more about Jennifer Shutts:
Other Resources:
At Peace Parents with Casey Ehrlich:
inTune Pathways with Kristy Forbes:
Read the entire transcript of this episode below.
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Stress-Free IEP®:
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP® experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
Watch more episodes of Stress-Free IEP®:
Connect and learn more from your host, Frances Shefter:
Read the whole transcript here:
Voiceover ( 00:00:00): Welcome to Stress-Free IEP®. You do not need to do it all alone with your host, Frances Shefter, Principal of Shefter Law. You can get more details and catch prior episodes at www.shefterlaw.com. The Stress-Free IEP® video podcast is also posted on youtube and linkedin and you can listen to episodes through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher and more. Now, here’s the host of Stress-Free IEP®. Frances Shefter.
Frances Shefter ( 00:00:36): Hello, everyone and welcome to our show. Today’s guest is Jennifer Shutts. Did I say that? Right? I think so with Willow tree parenting out in Seattle, Washington. So Jen, tell us a little bit about yourself and what, what Willow Tree parenting is all about. Yeah.
Jen Shutts ( 00:00:53): Hi. So glad to be here. So, thank you. Um So I am a mother of three neuro diverse kids. So we have all the diagnosis in our house. Um I am a parent coach, a certified parent coach. I work with mothers specifically who have kids with special needs, um uh autism. A DH do CD anxiety. Um Excuse me, I’m also a mental health nurse practitioner. So I work with the kids in my practice um, I am an IEP parent partner, which just means that I’ve been, um, trained through our, um, county here in Seattle, Washington to go in and be an advocate for parents who need assistance in IEP processes. And then I, um, do trauma, um, I’m trauma certified. Um, because I also work with foster and adoptive parents.
Frances Shefter ( 00:01:48): Wow. So that’s something we have connected connection. I do a lot of work with DC Superior Court Foster system as a, as an education attorney. And then I’m also my family, we foster kids out in Maryland as well because that’s where like it’s, I live, I love when I talk to people because you never know who’s out there that, you know, that, that community is so needed. Um And I love that, that your county actually certifies, coaches in IEP process. Is that like, so then do you like, do parents pay you or do you work through the county? Like, how does that work?
Jen Shutts ( 00:02:26): So it’s, um actually it’s a national organization called ARC ARC. Um There’s, yeah, the ARC. So we have Arc of Washington State and then we have ARCs for the different counties. And so the ARC of King County, um that organization does training for parents um to become a parent, it’s called a parent to parents um advocate. And so we’re trained through the IEP process. Um and all the for nuances, I mean, it’s so technical and that when parents get thrown in and you’re facing like the school system, like it could be, you know, very scary and overwhelming. Um, and so if someone is just kind of stuck or needs some support, we can go in, um, a lot of it now is virtual unfortunately, but you go in and you’re there with the parent to help kind of just be an advocate and, um, just be another set of eyes and ears for a parent because you’re just like, you know, a deer in headlights,
Frances Shefter ( 00:03:25): right? What I tell my clients is that you guys can be the parent at the meeting. Don’t worry about it. I will catch everything. I will have it all listening. Um, you know, just be the parent. That’s why I’m there to support you, um, say whatever you want, you know, give your input. I always tell my clients there’s nothing you can say in an IEP meeting that I can’t turn around to what my client is trying to say is and put it in teacher terms,
Jen Shutts ( 00:03:50): right? Thank God for what you do. It is so, so needed and that having that support and knowledge because there’s just so many little new, like I said, nuances in terms that as a parent is just so overwhelming,
Frances Shefter ( 00:04:05): right? And that, that’s why I say often like educate yourself. Like that’s the first thing as a parent, I mean, I both my kids are more diverse as well. Um, and just educate yourself. That’s part of the reason I have this show of like, what’s out there. Who can you get there and, you know, start with a parent coach. I always say that as well. If you’re already in a disagreement, then yes, you probably need to hit an attorney instead of an advocate or a parent coach or something. But if you’re just, I don’t understand, I don’t know what to do. I, I highly recommend parent coaches and advocates all of the time. Um, because it’s, you know, like, yes attorneys are expensive, but then when you look at it, it’s, you know, this is your kid’s future. What’s it worth?
Jen Shutts ( 00:04:42): Right? And I say, you know, start as early as you can, that the younger, um, that you can to really fight to get those, that foundation of learning for your kids and the right goals and the right accommodations because it just keeps building and building and the harder it is as time goes on,
Frances Shefter ( 00:05:01): that is so true. Yeah, I mean, I always say that the earlier the better and, you know, like I don’t want to say, overload them, it’s not really overload them but provide as many supports and backgrounds as you can to prevent because a lot of times I don’t know if you see it also, but like with our autistic kids and even sometimes our a DH kids, they mask so much and then they fall behind but they’re so smart. They manage to not show that they’re falling behind until like 3rd and 4th grade where it starts really, getting more difficult.
Jen Shutts ( 00:05:33): Absolutely. I, um, the masking is a really, really key piece that parents and even, you know, parents and teachers are like, oh, they’re fine. They don’t need help. They’re doing, especially, I see a lot of girls and, um, teenage girls in my practice as a health care provider who come in and they’re like super anxious and depressed because they have been undiagnosed and they have been masking all this time because they’re people pleasing or they don’t want to get in trouble and they’re keeping it together and it has nothing to do with and they’re embarrassed, it has nothing to do with intelligence, it has to do with, they just think differently. And so, um the masking is really uh a really hard one to pull that off. And I’ve been trying to teach my kids, you know, you be you my friend, you are, you, you’re a unique person, you have your own superpower and let’s live into that and let’s focus on your strengths and then have the scaffolding that you need through school. But I don’t ever want you to like, pretend to be somebody you’re not. If you don’t want to, you can choose to do that in certain situations,
Frances Shefter ( 00:06:44): right? But I’ve seen and tell me if you’ve seen this also. But I’ve also seen a lot of their kids. They don’t even realize they’re masking because society is telling them to do this to be this way, to act that way and they don’t know that it’s diff, it’s not difficult for other people and, and what they’re doing, they’re just trying to be a good kid. So, have you seen that a lot?
Jen Shutts ( 00:07:07): Yes. I think it depends on, like, the environment that is cultivated at home and at school and then also individually with the child of like, are they just a natural born people pleaser? Are they a natural born introvert? And that’s just they don’t want to draw attention to themselves. Um And so I like, I have organic conversations with my kids all the time and just to kind of live into their own person and their identity and but kids have a sense of wanting to belong. And so especially as they get into those Tween years, which I’m in the thick of that right now with I got to 10 and 11
Frances Shefter ( 00:07:50): years. So I’m getting there like, just on that.
Jen Shutts ( 00:07:54): I’m like, what’s happening. Um And so I can see that he is now like trying to fit in and trying to like he’s in, he’s got an IP he’s, you know, being pulled out every so often and he’s kind of resisting that. So I’m still have these continual conversations of like, this is what you need, you need to, you know, like teaching them how to advocate for themselves but also knowing how they’re gonna feel good about the bone selves as well. Like, I don’t want to feed into that anxiety. Don’t want to feed into that sadness. And that self worth is pretty huge, especially with, um, you know, autistic and a DH D kids.
Frances Shefter ( 00:08:38): Yeah, that’s, and that’s a conversation I have often with my clients of like, yes, the school system has to supply this. Yes, the school system has to do this. But is it right for your child? You know, because sometimes sometimes I’ll say, like, look and, like, what I’m doing with my own kids, you know? Yeah, you can get them pulled out but then they’re missing content and that’s raising the anxiety. Whereas if you do tutoring at home, you know, you’re getting the same thing. Yes, it’s costing you money. But you’re looking at the whole child.
Jen Shutts ( 00:9:9): Right. And, and, like, what that child needs and where they are developmentally because it changes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Frances Shefter ( 00:9:17): And so, and I’d love that, that I shouldn’t say I love, but the fact that you’re a parent just probably makes you so much better as a coach. Like, the same for me. Like, I’m a better attorney because I’ve been a special ed teacher. I’ve been a regular teacher and I’m a parent so I can, I know where you are. Right. And so how do you find that helps you? Like, when you support families in IUP meetings.
Jen Shutts ( 00:9:39): Yeah. Um Thank you. I, I do feel like I have the lived experience. I’m in the thick of it at home. I myself have a DH D um I work at it, you know, work in the mental health field and I also um work with parent coaching so I am in it. I breathe it. I live it and I feel called to help other parents because I remember how I was years and years and years ago when with the diagnosis and trying to navigate and then you have the healthcare system bombarding you with, you know, you should do this and then the parenting books that not all the parenting books are aimed for our kids. So it’s just like this rough road. And so, um you know, when I do talk to my, my clients, I it’s not like a one size fits all because everybody is so different, you know, one autistic child is different than another autistic child. I mean, all three of my kids have a DH D and they’re all completely different. So everything is kind of tailored for the individual child, the family. Um and then also that changes over time, you know, my, my eight year old is autistic and he’s a very different person than he was, you know, just a year ago. So,
Frances Shefter ( 00:11:00): yeah, and it’s, you know. Right. And it also matters what you as a parent that you want. For your child, which is always a challenge because we want the best for our kids. We’re parents, like, of course, obviously. But what does that look like? And what do you think that looks like? And it’s, it’s hard when they’re younger because they’re not, they don’t have an idea of what it should look like, you know, like when they hit high school. Ok, this is what I want my life to look like and we can go that way, but when they’re younger it’s like, what do you think is the best thing? Do you think being in a special ed school is where they need to be? Do you think staying in the general education population is where they need to be? What, you know, like, what do you think as the parent? Because honestly it’s the parent that knows the most at any IUP meeting because it’s their kid, right? Like they do, they might, yeah, they might not know the education and the special ed and the curriculum but they know their kid and they know what their kid needs.
Jen Shutts ( 00:11:59): You are like, you hit the nail on the head and like some parents will go in and they just don’t want to rock the boat or they don’t want to like, you know, make enemy, like you’re not really fighting, you’re not supposed to be fighting technically, but going in and just listening to your gut and saying, I know what my kid needs. I know what is right. I see it at home and let me explain that to you and show you what my child needs and I don’t know um, about you and um, when you work with your clients, do you encourage the, the kids to attend IEP meetings or is it too far in like the process with the, the legal battle
Frances Shefter ( 00:12:42): when they’re older? Like high school kids? I always say they come for part of it. Not all of it because it’s hard for them to sit through like the present levels and everything. But when it comes to supplementary aids and accommodations, I like the high school kids to be in there because they can tell us they could, once they hit high school, they’re the, they’re the experts, you know, and they can say like, yeah, you know what, when you give me this, it helps but it doesn’t help when you do that. So like let’s get the IEP tailored to what the child thinks they need. So, but younger. No. Yeah, because I just, it’s a lot, I mean, maybe middle school, depending on what the parents think with the middle school are. But again, it’s just like for that part of it of like just asking them, what do you see? What do you need? What do you want? What do you think, you know, where you want to be? But that’s, you know, that’s so big a part of my practice is finding what the parent wants as the ultimate outcome and then we can reverse engineer it and get to like. So now this is what we need to do in each grade level as we grow older to get to that ultimate goal.
Jen Shutts ( 00:13:51): Ok. So yeah, I see um in my, my clinical practice, I see the Children. So on the coaching side, I work with parents in my clinical practice. I work with Children and teens. Um and it’s just, it’s interesting to have both different sides of what the kids are experiencing and their lived experience and then the parents lived experience and how they are struggling, you know, to understand what’s going on with their kids. Um and where they need support. So it’s sometimes it’s very fragmented and other times it’s, you know, I come in and I help align both of them. So it’s more of a, a community connected effort for both,
Frances Shefter ( 00:14:33): right? Which makes sense. But it, and it’s hard because, you know, as parents, we have dreams for our kids and what we want them to do and be and, you know, and it’s like, you know what, it’s ok if they don’t go to college, it’s ok if they choose, you know, like whatever it is, like we need to, I don’t know if it’s like living vicariously through our kids or what, but like let go of our dreams for our child and let’s develop your child to reach their full potential. Oh
Jen Shutts ( 00:14:59): my gosh, Frances. That was beautiful. Like, yeah, what you say I like all the time. I have to like check, um I’ve had to check my expectations and that’s kind of where we start with parenting. The coaching. Is that ok? What is your expectations? And we may have to grieve and, you know, change and alter what, you know, what you think your control is on their dreams and their path because that may be different.
Frances Shefter ( 00:15:26): Right? No, that’s so true. Yeah, it is a grieving process because it’s, you know, like, yeah, our kids not gonna be a rocket scientist but that’s ok. You know,
Jen Shutts ( 00:15:37): that’s ok and they all have, you know, beautiful superpowers and it’s um sometimes like it’s rewarding like when they talk about like especially kids with a DH D who are hyperactive and all they do is just like excessively talk and talk and talk. I’m like, ok, let’s reward that and reframe that and make that a positive um aspect like they’re social and they can get along with others and um putting that spin and making things a little bit more positive.
Frances Shefter ( 00:16:08): Right? Yeah. And that, that’s part of the things I like don’t like about the IEPs is they focus so much on the negative instead of pulling the positive of like these are the kids trains, let’s use these to build the um but you know, it’s just, it’s never going to be perfect, you know, we do with what we can. And so I think I want to talk about like with um like advocating with the school and the medical team. Like, do you have that a lot since you do you know you are a clinician outside as well? How does that work with bridging with the school?
Jen Shutts ( 00:16:41): I actually um those are, for me, those are two separate things. Um especially since one is like a medical, my, you know, medical license that I have to kind of keep separate from um the coaching piece and the IEP piece. But I, I can be um hired specifically if um parents need me to go in and talk about like if the school is fighting like a diagnosis because I do a lot of a DH D diagnosing um for in my practice. So parents will come in and say this is what’s happening, you know, we need a diagnosis and so I then can, you know, go through the diagnosis process and the education and then I can um provide those documentations for the school and then if the school pushes back and says, you know, this is not, you know, acceptable. So it’s that kind of whole nuance of like help building the um the parents um um medical, like I said, documentation for the school so they can get those supports in place. But I um I’m hired differently to go into to talk about because they’re separate pieces. Yeah,
Frances Shefter ( 00:17:55): that makes sense. But there’s, I mean, I’m sure like in both sides though, encouragement of the medical side talking with the school side. So that, that especially like for your patients that you see, so that the school knows what you’re working on and they know what you’re working on, you know, and so, or vice versa, you know what the school is working on and that, that it can be fluid and like the same type of techniques being used, right?
Jen Shutts ( 00:18:22): Yes, I um I speak to a lot of school counselors just so we are connected and we’re using the same language and the same supports. Um I will ask, you know, like, what are you doing in there? Like in these situations, especially um kids who now are being well, they can’t be diagnosed with PD A um here in the United States because it’s not a, it’s not a DS M five, but there’s more and more kids um who had that profile of autism. And so um that is a whole different ball game for kids who are autistic versus the autistic PD A. Um And so school is really like even more difficult for them in terms of like the um the demand avoidance and trying to equalize the behaviors. So um that, that’s another layer that’s really been very difficult for some schools to understand.
Frances Shefter ( 00:19:19): Yeah, you know, it’s PDA is coming out more and more and more I’ve had, you know, I have kids that have it and, and, you know, for those that don’t understand, I know it’s, it’s, I always say it wrong, pervasive demand avoidance. And so somebody else, somebody on my show said, um, persistent drive for autonomy. And I’m like that because that’s what it is, you know, with PDA and I know, you know, it’s challenging because our schools know nothing about it. Um, and it’s challenging of like, what supports can we put in place for our PDA kids because of the demand issues?
Jen Shutts ( 00:19:58): Exactly. Well, and there’s even healthcare providers that, um, are not aware of PDA because, you know, like I said, like here in the United States it’s not a medical diagnosis. Um, and so there’s not a lot of providers who are privy, um, or educated in it. So it’s, you know, it’s based out of, um, UK, there’s a huge, um, society over there that, um, and that’s where the diagnosis is accepted and then also in Australia. Um, and there’s two really great um, uh, providers out there, Casey Ehrlich and um, Christy Forbes are the huge forerunners of the PDA. So if parents need some, um, resources, those are some really great. I
Frances Shefter ( 00:20:47): just, yeah, I just started file, um, a client told me about Casey Ehrlich I love her posts because it’s so eye opening of the reality of why it’s so different and how as parents even so like not even looking at the school system, but as parents, how we can adjust how we’re talking to our child to make it easier.
Jen Shutts ( 00:21:9): Absolutely. I hear at home I, I use um because we were getting into that, that kind of fight with my child and myself with the demands or the requests. And so I actually use our Alexa and I put um requests through Alexa, so I have them scheduled and Alexa will, you know, come and say it out loud for him to do rather than it coming from me myself. And so it takes away that layer of like, here’s, you know, mom nagging me again, we’re kind of um unequal in our hierarchy. And so it comes from a neutral party and he can say, you know, whether he chooses to do it or not or snooze. So it’s been actually really helpful in taking that layer off of. Um
Frances Shefter ( 00:21:56): Yeah, no, that’s awesome because I think I don’t remember if it was Casey’s or somebody else’s but on Instagram, I was scrolling through today and um somebody was saying of like instead of telling your PD a child pick up that sock from the floor, it’s would you be able to pick up that sock from the floor? You know, because then it’s their choice and it’s not a demand put on them and like simple language things which even without PDA, I mean, for every child, I mean, I don’t know what teenager doesn’t say no. You know what I mean to their parent. Whereas if you kind of make it a challenge or like, you know, can you do that then I think kids are going to want to do it more. Right.
Jen Shutts ( 00:22:34): Right. Well, you, you have to have that. My kids are always going to say no, like you said, but also as a parent, we need to check our own triggers. Like what triggers me from then getting into like, well, you know, you need to respect me and like, how dare you talk back to me. And so it’s like checking our own parenting style and what triggers us? Like I learned my own triggers back in COVID is my triggers was noise because we were all home. I have three boys, we’re all neurodivergent and I was like, what is, what’s wrong with me? And I realize it’s noise. And so I have some clients whose trigger is disrespect. I have another one who’s lying. So we’ve had to kind of work through our own triggers to like get into our own regulation. So we stay connected and that our kids feel safe to be able to say no and they feel like, OK, this is a safe environment. My mom’s not going to freak out on me, I’m safe and we’re still connected because that’s when that’s when the beauty happens,
Frances Shefter ( 00:23:41): right? That’s so important. And you know, it’s interesting, you say that because the foster parent training, like the initial training talk, you kind of talk about parenting styles and stuff because when you, you know, our own kid, it’s different. You know, when you bring in a foster child with their trauma and their background, it’s important to know our triggers because it’s such a different and, you know, we try to connect with those kids as well, whether they’re in our home for two days or two weeks or a month. Um because they need that connection. Uh But yeah, I mean, the connection is so important that like how I’m trying to think of like how to word it. But like, I like, do you have pointers for parents of how to help them get that connection even when they’re in that, you know, disagreement mode?
Jen Shutts ( 00:24:27): Yeah, I um so I’ve learned how to read cues. So it’s really important for parents to like, take a step back and um being, I know this word is used a lot and some people call it woo woo, but like being mindful. So being mindful and aware of what your kids cues are. So I have a, a specific kid that I can tell exactly the look on his face and he kind of starts to like, it’s almost like he’s watching for something and he’s almost in this like um attack mode, like pre attack mode. So we need to figure out where our kids are going and what their triggers are, what our triggers are because you want to catch it. Um I have an, I’m gonna back up and say like sensory also comes into play with all of this. So I have a sensory seeker, I have a sensory avoider. And so finding that zone where things are um calm and regulated for ourselves and for them, it’s this dance of trying to figure out. So I work with parents specifically on that zone, um, of knowing what their personal zone is and regulating and then where their kids start to go either, um, above or beyond that zone. And so it’s our job as a parent to learn how to, like, regulate ourselves. So we can help our kid because we can’t, I mean, it’s not our kid’s job to regulate. That’s our job is to parent. So even like a lot of parents come to me and they’re like, I need help with their behaviors, their behaviors are so out of control. Um, that’s what the parents think, but really, it’s actually coming from us and not the kid, it’s our job to, like, help them and learn that together as a, as a family.
Frances Shefter ( 00:26:22): That makes sense because it’s, it is behaviors are reactions to their environment and what’s happening at that point in time. Um, and like gone are the days of like when we grew up, you know, at least when I grew up, I know and my husband, it was, you did what you did what our parents said because they were our parents period. Like, you know, like you like that. Was it like if you didn’t, you got backhanded or, you know, something like that? But, um, but it was just, I, I don’t know, like, it never like to defy my parents and, you know, um, I mean, yeah, obviously I wasn’t a perfect kid. Like, you know, my mom’s probably watching going uh Yeah, yeah, you did that, you know, but, but it’s just like, it’s so like our environment today is so different from when, you know, the parents were kids of what’s available and what’s out there and what um what our kids need, especially, you know, after COVID with all of that, that just added such a different layer on top.
Jen Shutts ( 00:27:23): Well, and also um I actually, I just went to um uh a training for like anxiety for, you know, for my, my practice and it specifically was for tweens and teens and anxiety and there was some, you know, other parents there who were like, well, I didn’t have to do this and, you know, my day when I grow up and like you said, there were so like this is how I was raised. I’m gonna continue down that path. It worked. I turned out OK? But our world is so different than when we grew up. I mean, we have like the immediacy of like you can order something and it’ll come to our door in a couple hours. We have immediate information getting on our phones. Our kids are isolated because, um, of just that relationship of not being as connected as we were. Like, I’m sure same for you. We were thrown out. Um, outside parents were like, come back at dinner time, you know,
Frances Shefter ( 00:28:26): the, the street lights come on and that
Jen Shutts ( 00:28:28): doesn’t happen anymore. And so you can’t take how you were, were raised in that time frame, you know, even 10 years ago because it’s so different now. Um And so we have to think about it differently in a different lens, right?
Frances Shefter ( 00:28:44): And that’s the thing, it’s not. Yeah, like I say, I say, um I used to say to my dad all the time that, you know, like, yeah, he screwed up when we were kids, but he did the best he could with what he knew. And that’s the thing his parents like, you know what, it’s tough parenting period, no matter what knowledge you have, you know, doctors, teachers, every knowledge because every kid is different and, and, and it’s just, you know, it’s interesting how much I know for me how much I’ve grown as a person, becoming a parent in growing as a parent to help support my kids to get that connection and, and try and bring peace to the house.
Jen Shutts ( 00:29:29): Right? Well, you, and then also like for, for you with your um IEP meetings and working with the school system is, the schools don’t see what the kids are going through at home, especially with the, the masking. You know, they, they see like, oh, your kids been like beautiful reports. They’re quiet, they’re calm, they’re receptive and in that home it’s like they’ve exploded and there’s like, um, you know, throwing things and yelling and slamming doors and the school doesn’t see that. So it’s that kind of, you have to work together to see like, what is working at school? Is it really working at school? What is working at home? Is it really working at school and trying to like, put the kid in the, in the center and saying, ok, what is it that they need? And what is the diagnosis and we need to go from there to figure out those supports and everybody should be on the same, should be on the same page of talking about things, you know, you have you going in and helping, you know, people like me to go in and help and be that voice,
Frances Shefter ( 00:30:38): right? And to that connection because I’ve had it, I’ve had several cases in which the school says, well, I don’t see any of that. It’s a home problem. It’s a parenting problem. It’s your problem. And I’ve on numerous occasions at IEP meeting said, well, this is the problem. The child is holding it all together all day and when then they get home, they can finally be themselves. And if they weren’t having to hold themselves together all day because they had supports in place, it would be much better for everyone. And the way I describe it for, for teachers to understand or for the whole team to understand, as I say, like, think about you having a really rough day and your boss is on top of you and this and you’re holding it all together because you have to do that. You know, you can’t cuss out your boss. Obviously, you can’t go run out, you know, run to the beach or whatever, but you’re holding it together and when you get home, you go for a run, you have a glass of wine, you have this, well, imagine that every single day and not having that outlet. And that’s when I see the light bulbs go off for teachers of what this is reality for these kids.
Jen Shutts ( 00:31:45): Absolutely. I mean, even the smallest thing for, especially kids who have sensory issues, even like a, um, flicker of lights at schools can set them off or noises or people in their space. And I’ve had um, school saying, well, I don’t know what the trigger was like. They were totally fine. I didn’t put a demand on them. And I’m like, oh gosh, there’s so many, so many things even like just like your facial expression, especially kids, you know, with PD A, if they think that you’re mad at them or you have a, like a look on your face or your body language can just like, set them into this like fight or flight and feeling like they need to equalize. So there’s so many different little pieces that um the more support, the more education, like what you’re doing is just what everybody needs so we can um be informed
Frances Shefter ( 00:32:40): and learn how to be proactive. That’s a big thing like learning those triggers and that’s what, you know, functional behavior assessments are supposed to be, you know, like go and see like what’s happening, what’s triggering and what, you know, so it’s different with our to kids, especially with the PD A. But the functional behavior assessment can come in handy because at least it helps us with the triggers. So it might not be a replacement behavior, it might be a, let’s replace what the triggers are and figure out to be proactive they are, right? So, and so when you go in, I was just going to say with coaching, like, so you do coaching in the sense of going to IEP meetings with parents. And then do you also do like individual coaching of just teaching parents of how to connect with their kids and like, what does that look like?
Jen Shutts ( 00:33:26): Yes, I actually I have a few different hats. So I do the IEP go into the IEP um with parents. I also do executive function coaching um for kids with a DH D who need to work on those skills. Um You know, I am a medication prescriber, but I also really believe that medication is not the, you know, the, the ultimate tool. I mean, there’s no way that a medication is going to teach you how to organize. So I, I teach the different executive function skills so people can be successful as they get older. Um And then the other piece is parent coaching. So working with parents on the different challenges that they see individually. So, you know, one parent, it may be the behavioral challenges, another parent, it may be the school um or another 1 may be sensory. So I actually individualize my work with the um with the parents on their challenges that they perceive and then we dive deeper into that connection and that regulation with the with the entire family.
Frances Shefter ( 00:34:31): So it’s not therapy, it’s definitely not
Jen Shutts ( 00:34:33): therapy. It’s not the right
Frances Shefter ( 00:34:35): even though technically you’re places to be a therapist, but it’s more, but I like it because it’s more coaching because I know a lot of people like, I don’t need therapy. I’m the, you know, like, but it’s not, it’s, it’s learning how to be a better parent basically, right?
Jen Shutts ( 00:34:49): There’s tricks, there’s strategies. Um And then there’s like I said, that kind of that awareness so we can change, we’re moving forward there p typically is like diving into like the past and what has occurred in the past in healing versus like, you know, when, like you mentioned, um the trauma, so working with families and kids who, you know, foster adoptive that have trauma in the past and healing that whereas coaching is working on the, the present and trying to move forward with a, with a better pathway,
Frances Shefter ( 00:35:24): right? That is awesome. So I know you’re in Seattle, we said that do you, are you just in Seattle area or do you provide coaching virtually for other areas? I
Jen Shutts ( 00:35:34): do, I do um, virtually for, for everybody. Um, actually just had a client in Germany, um, which is a little tricky with the time change.
Frances Shefter ( 00:35:44): I had two, I’ve had two clients in Germany. That’s so funny.
Jen Shutts ( 00:35:48): Yeah. Um I think because I was on a podcast, um that was based uh internationally, which was fabulous. But, um, yes, I do it just anywhere that works out and then I also can do a face to face here in Seattle.
Frances Shefter ( 00:36:04): That’s great. And so if people want to get in touch with you on any of your hats and need help, what’s the best way for them to do that?
Jen Shutts ( 00:36:11): Well, thank you. Um So my um, website is willow tree parenting.com. Um I chose Willow Tree because a tree, that tree, it needs to um be flexible and it bends and it adapts, which is what us as parents need to do. We need to be flexible and adapt and bend, especially working with um neurodivergent kids. Um, and then my email is master coach at Willow tree.com. And
Frances Shefter ( 00:36:39): I know that I know and I just had somebody just did a comment. Um, so somebody watching live is like, thinks it’s great that it’s international because it is true. Like I know for me, um, internationals because American schools internationally have to follow the federal laws here. So, which a lot of, I didn’t know until I knew that. But, um, and I know I’ve had somebody on my, I’m trying to remember who but somebody else has been on my um show that does international as well because even though it’s not the same laws in the school system as a parent, we definitely, I mean, it is international. Obviously, we’re all parents, you know, it doesn’t matter what country we’re in. So I love that you’re available to do that as well. Wow. Um Thank you so much and I know we’re going to put everything in the show notes of how people can contact you. This has been absolutely wonderful. Thank you so much for being on my show. Thank
Jen Shutts ( 00:37:30): you so much Frances and thank you for what you do for, for educating people. This has been really vital for people.
Frances Shefter ( 00:37:36): Thank you.
Voiceover ( 00:37:38): You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEP® with your host, Frances Shefter. Remember you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through Shefterlaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments and sharing the show with others through youtube linkedin Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher and more.
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