In this episode of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances speaks with Dr. Taylor Day, child psychologist and parental coach for autistic children. Owner of Dr. Tay, Concierge Clinical Care, Dr. Tay specializes in neurodivergent affirming care for autistic children and their families.
Tune in to the episode to hear about:
Autism Diagnosis and Therapy
The Whole Family Approach
Neurodivergent Affirming Care — definition and understanding
Unwrapping PDA (pathological demand avoidance or persistent drive for autonomy)
The Importance of Emotional Regulation and tips for parents can help their kids and themselves
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP® experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
Voiceover:[00:00:00] Welcome to Stress-Free IEP. You do not need to do it all alone with your host, Frances Shefter, principal of Shefter Law. You can get more details than catch prior episodes@www.shefterlaw.com. The Stress-Free IEP video podcast is also posted on YouTube and LinkedIn, and you can listen to episodes through Apple, Podcasts Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, and more.
Now, here’s the host of Stress-Free IEP Frances Schefter.
Frances Shefter: Hello everyone and welcome to our show. Um, I am excited, like I always say, but I am excited. I love having my guests on my show and it’s awesome. So, but today’s guest is Dr. Taylor Day, who has Dr. Tay Concierge Clinical Care. So Dr. Tay, tell me a little bit about [00:01:00] your clinic and what you focus on.
Taylor Day: Yeah. Well thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be here as well. So I am a child psychologist and I specialize in neurodivergent affirming care for autistic children and their families. And so as part of my practice, Dr. Tay, Concierge Clinical Care, I really focus, you know, both on the diagnosis of autism and therapeutic supports, but really it, the concierge part of it is that.
It, it’s all about how we can create really high quality, high touch care. Um, you know, the, the large reality is that you go get your child evaluated, you get a short time span, you know, you get the answer, you’re moving on. I love being able to create a more seamless process where parents can get that continued support, that they’re really feeling heard and supported.
And on the therapy side too, of like, how can we integrate? What the family’s working on, you know, with me in different settings and doing [00:02:00] care coordination and all of that. So it’s a whole family approach. It is a whole family approach. I think that is a really big gap in the autism field and really was inspired honestly by my personal background.
I grew up, um, I have a brother who’s 10 years younger than me, and he was diagnosed with autism when he was twenty-three months of age. And I, I saw how all the support was directed to him, but there wasn’t a lot of support for my parents. And then by in turn. For me through this process as well. So I wanted to kind of change how care was done.
Frances Shefter: I love that it’s, you know, it’s so great ’cause so many of us do what we do because of our personal experiences. Mm-Hmm. And I know Autism’s been, you know, my firm. We do everything. But like more recently where most of our cases are with kids with autism and we get it often that the parents don’t know what to do and don’t know how to do.
And you know, often they’re like, we wish we had known you sooner. We wish we had known that sooner, which is part of the [00:03:00] reason I have the show is to put it out there of like, Hey, look, you don’t have to do this all alone. You know? Um, and so like, I love, like so neurodivergent affirming care. Let’s unpack that a little bit ’cause I’m sure people are like, what is that?
Taylor Day: What is that? Yeah, absolutely. And it’s kind of a buzzword right now, but, and it’s interesting. I’ll be candid, even on the buzzword side of, you’ll see it thrown around, but it’s really about do. Clinical care providers or really any, anyone working with your child, use this approach. And so where it’s based out of, so there’s this I umbrella term called neurodiversity, and it’s this idea that all brains think different and different is not bad or something that we need to change.
And so under that neurodiversity umbrella we have, you know, neurotypical individuals. So their brain is wired the way that our society typically thinks of things. And a lot of our standards and the way that we do things are based on these neurotypical standards. [00:04:00] And then we also have neurodivergence, again, like, like the word says.
Diverging from that neurotypicality with how the brain is wired. And then under that, um, we also have all these different disabilities and autism being one that falls under that neuro divergent umbrella. And so what affirming care really comes down to is understanding that an autistic child’s brain, I work exclusively with children.
But understanding an autistic child’s brain is different. And what that means is we don’t necessarily need to think about how do we make them look. Like their neurotypical peers. Instead, we want to figure out what this child’s unique profile is. What are their strengths and what are their support needs?
And the reality is, as humans, we all have strengths and support needs. Um, and often for autistic children, they just have some more support needs and we really wanna make sure that we’re coming at this [00:05:00] too, that we’re not just teaching them. To mask to look like their neurotypical ears. Exactly.
Frances Shefter: That was gonna be my question about it, like masking.
’cause I know that’s a big thing of like, you know, a lot of people are against ABA therapy, which I know you’re neutral on. Um, but they think it’s forcing the kids to be like everybody else instead of finding their own space. Yeah. Um, yeah, and it just, and I know with masking it’s hard. That’s one of the things when I,, when I go to IEP meetings to get kids found eligible, a lot of times schools will say, yes, they have ASD, but they’re not, it’s not, there’s no educational impact because they don’t see the behaviors at home.
Correct. Because the child keeps it together, you know, all the school day masking doing what they have to, and then they fall apart at home.
Taylor Day: Absolutely, and I think we see this in particular, there’s a pro, a theorized profile type called PDA or pathological demand avoidance. Um, and then the autistic community prefers persistent drive for autonomy, [00:06:00] but basically, oh.
Yeah, I haven’t heard that one
Frances Shefter: yet. I, I, yeah. The other, I’ve heard lots of, ’cause I have clients like lots of it, but I like that one.
Taylor Day: Yeah. Because the name pathological like it, that in and of itself isn’t affirming, so I always use that because I think it’s more well known. But then listening to Autistic voices and talking about what they prefer as well as how it’s experienced.
And so what happens is when there’s a perceived loss of autonomy, the nervous system goes into this. Fight-or-flight mode. So it’s more the loss of autonomy that’s creating this than the demand, per se. Um, but the demand often comes with that loss of autonomy. And so we often see really high-masking autism that happens at school, um, especially with these PDA kids, and they can look so different and different.
Settings. And what’s really interesting is, I hear this all the time too, there’s not this educational need, but the kids then going home and melting [00:07:00] down, right? Yep. And it’s like there’s so many more supportive approaches that we could be doing in school to help this child to stay more regulated throughout the entire day.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. And that’s, that’s my argument usually what IU uh, a lot of times people have heard me say at IEP meetings, like, think of it as this way as adults, when you have a really stressful day that you’ve had to hold it together all day. What do we do when we get home? Have a glass of wine, go for a run, do something.
What do these kids have? They don’t. And so since we’re forcing them all day to mask and, and hold it together, they fall apart at home. Whereas we put the supports in place at school. There’s just gonna be a peace and harmony throughout. Absolutely. It’s be better for everyone.
Taylor Day: Yeah. Yeah. I often think about it as like there’s a, a jug inside of all of us and this, this is a human experience, but for many autistic kids, but particularly autistic kids with the PDA profile, their jug is much smaller, [00:08:00] so they have.
You know, it fills up more rapidly and so they’re able, you know, to maybe hold it together for six hours of school. But all these demands and loss of autonomies are coming in. And going back to the masking piece too, like a great example of this in an IEP that I see a lot is talking about eye contact goals.
Well, there should never be eye contact goals. There’s. So many different ways to communicate, to learn, to engage. And so that’s one that like rapidly fills up the cup. Um, and then also kids learn, oh, well this is how I get the attention I want. Or this is how I, I get to do X, Y, and Z. And so they’ll do it, but it’s creating this dysregulation in their system.
And so I think that, you know, it is something we need to really be thinking through and making sure that. Yeah. We’re not just trying to make autistic kids look like they’re neurotypical peers. Yeah,
Frances Shefter: that’s, and it’s so true. It’s, [00:09:00] it’s, it’s definitely frustrating when you see like all the behavior charts, like, you know, calm hands, well, you know what, maybe they don’t need calm hands.
Right. You know? Right. You know, hands to themselves. Yes. But calm hands isn’t necessarily, I mean, I twiddle all the time. I do this with my thumbs, you know, and is that calm hands? Technically not, but it’s what I need to do, so. Right. Exactly. Um, yeah, I love that. I love this persistent drive for autonomy. So let’s unpack that a little bit for people that are going, well, what does that mean?
What does autonomy mean? Yeah.
Taylor Day: Yeah. So you know, in parent-child relationships or really any adult-child relationship, there is just a natural hierarchy that happens where adults are in charge, they’re giving the demands, kids are responding, you know, and when, and you mentioned about ABA earlier, one of the concerns with ABA too is it’s very compliance driven, where we’re just teaching kids that they have to respond in a certain way.
Well, for kids with this persistent drive for autonomy, what [00:10:00] happens is literally it creates activation and I often conceptualize it as anxiety in their nervous system. And so, you know, what ends up happening is then we’re gonna, sometimes for some kids that have the PDA profile, we get more of an externalized.
Um, subtype of it where it’s like, no, I’m not doing that. I refuse to do anything. You know, everything is an argument. They’re constantly correcting their parents. Parents feel like they’re walking on eggshells. So all of that can happen, and that’s because there’s this hierarchy in place where, you know, their nervous system feels very out of control.
They’re very anxious, and, and that hierarchy adds to it for kids with more of the internalized. Subtype of PDA, then what we often see is really, really anxious kids. But again, these kids often want to control not doing it to be defiant or oppositional or just not listen. They’re. [00:11:00] They know it’s effective for regulating and calling calming how their body feels.
That is
Frances Shefter: just, oh my God, I’m so like I am. It’s blowing my mind. ’cause this has been a PDA has been a huge thing recently. I had a client a couple of years ago, not even, I think it might have been two years ago, that brought my attention to it and I started researching it and now I’m starting to see it more often.
Um, and a couple of day, a couple of weeks ago, I had Dr. Stixrud on the show, and he was talking about how. Kids need control. So even our kids not, you know, on the PDA profile under ASD, but just kids in general need to feel some sort of control of their life. And that’s, that’s like what that battle is, that as parents, we’re never gonna win when we get in that battle with the kids.
Right. You know, we know that. Exactly. ’cause what’s gonna happen. Okay, so we get them to bend to our will, but why? How is that really what we want? You know?
Taylor Day: Exactly. Yeah, and it’s interesting too to even think about from this standpoint of like [00:12:00] literally like height differences, right? Parents and other adults tend to stand over kids, and so it creates that.
And so one of the things when you’re getting kind of what appears to be this more willful behavior, actually squatting down and getting on your kids’ level, going to face, face to face with them, it takes away that that perceived hierarchy right there and it. Feels more collaborative and we often can make so much more progress.
But it does take a parenting mindset shift or in the school system, a teacher, you know, mindset shift. And I will say. I’m finding schools are having a really hard time right now with this PDA concept. Um, and we’re, we’re seeing this movement then of a lot of these PDA kids being pulled out of school and they’re being homeschooled or doing unschooling because basically the, the demands that they’re getting throughout the day, they’re not learning anything we know.[00:13:00]
We know for a fact kids have to be both, um, engaged and regulated in order to learn. And so if that’s not optimized, then they’re just going to school to go to school.
Frances Shefter: Right. No, that’s so true. It’s, it’s crazy. Somebody had said once that, that kids with the, or even adults with the PDA profile don’t see hierarchy, so they don’t see that people, is that what it is?
Or they just don’t respect like. W what’s the relationship like? They’re saying like they don’t, they feel that everybody’s on the
Taylor Day: same level. Well, you think about it this way, like this idea of hierarchy is. A socially driven concept, right? That we as a society and as a culture have said this is what’s to be true.
And so like in the US we think about it one way, but other countries think about it and other cultures think about it differently. So it’s a social driven construct. And so then when we think about Neurodivergence as a whole, a lot of times neurodivergent [00:14:00] individuals, if things don’t make sense, they’re just.
They’re more likely to be like, well, why are we doing it this way? Which is such an incredible trait, honestly, that I think for those that aren’t neurodivergent could very much learn from. And so I think that’s some of where, where it possibly could come from of like, well, this doesn’t make any sense. And it also, in terms of the neurodivergent affirming care lens, would say we’re seeing children as, as human beings.
First, and so I think that’s maybe some of where it comes from, but I think it’s also both a proactive conceptualization but also a response. You know, if my nervous system felt like it was on edge and like that, that feeling where it’s like you’re about to run from a bear all the time, then I wouldn’t buy into the hierarchy either.
Frances Shefter: Right. No, that totally makes sense. It’s just, yeah, it’s crazy. Um, so emotional dysregulation. I know I looked on your [00:15:00] website real quick and I was really excited ’cause I saw that you had the master class in emotional regulation and I signed up for it because my child has some, well, I, you know what I say my child, but you know, all children have emotional dysregulation issues, even the neurotypical because they’re never taught how to manage their emotions.
Right, right.
Taylor Day: And so, I mean, as adults we have emotion dysregulation too, right? Right.
Frances Shefter: Exactly. Exactly. You sh you should hear when I drive, everybody knows like, don’t put your kids in the car with me. It’s not pretty, but yeah. I mean, but that’s, but that’s it. It’s emotional dysregulation. And so today. My daughter, it was just, I don’t know what was up with her, but she was just completely dysregulated this morning, screaming and yelling and crying and a mess.
And I just, and I was getting mad at her ’cause she was being disrespectful. And I’m like, wait a minute. Stop. This isn’t working. And she was lying in my bed crying and I just went over there and held her. Mm-Hmm. And I just hugged her for two minutes and that was it. She was fine. She was [00:16:00] able to get herself re-regulated.
She got up, got in the shower, got herself ready for school, and everything was beautiful. And it was just like, that’s been a mind shift for me of that, you know, I was brought up in the era of, you do what I say, ’cause I’m the father, or I’m the mother, period. You know, like nothing. And that doesn’t work for my kids.
That doesn’t work for most of today’s generations. You know, they need to know that why. And so I know for me, like that’s something like what other techniques do you have that, that you could, not spilling the whole class, but like, you know, techniques for parents.
Taylor Day: Yeah. And I, I think that some of this is, we have to take a step back too and recognize what you are describing.
That is, that is, I keep saying a human, like bringing up this idea of human, but that’s a human reaction. When someone else escalates, our nervous system automatically responds and escalates with them. Yep. And so it takes a lot of intentionality and I think a lot of times when we’re thinking about [00:17:00] teaching emotion regulation, I, I will say I see a lot of misinformation out there where it’s like, oh, well we need to go through flashcards and teach kids different emotions.
In particular for neurodivergent kids, it doesn’t generalize. But even for neurotypical kids, I think one of the things to think about is like. Is that really the skill we wanna spend time teaching And I think often it’s not often we think it’s gonna get us to that end result. And so what I really, you know, ultimately recommend, first and foremost, is the parent working on their own emotion regulation first.
Steps, um, because of two reasons. One, as you activate, they’re gonna continue to activate and escalate. Yep. Um, so if you can be counter to that, it actually helps to right then and there, start to regulate things. But number two is. Modeling is an extremely powerful form of learning. And so [00:18:00] what you are modeling actually your, your child begins to learn that as well.
And so one, are we modeling emotional avoidance? I think this is really common with like our generations, like older generations of adults. It’s, we were told to. And taught to suppress our emotions. And so are we modeling that to kids. And then also like we, you know, one of the things I hear a lot of times is, well, deep breathing doesn’t work for my child.
And I’m like, let, let’s take a step back. Why doesn’t it work? Well, you’re often telling them one to do deep breathing only when they’re escalated. So they associate it exactly with a negative thing. Number two is, you know, again, logic goes out the window, so you’re telling them to do something that’s not natural to them.
Um, and also, you know, the way in which we do it, are you screaming at them saying you need to take deep [00:19:00] breaths like. Also not helpful. So instead, what I say to parents is, I want you to start taking deep breaths. I don’t even want you to prompt your kid to take deep breaths. And I love this idea of loud, audible breaths.
We actually know, you know, from a, um, kind of nervous system sense that, uh, someone hearing that actually helps to regulate them as well. And so not only are you calming your nervous system so you can more effectively respond. At the same time they’re starting to hear it and it’s already starting to bring them down.
Frances Shefter: Right. Which is so, I mean, it’s so true. And like thinking about it, like you’re saying the flash cards. Well, yeah. So they can learn the flash cards, the emotions, but when they’re in the heat of the emotion, they’re not gonna remember all that. No. And they’re not gonna do all that. It’s like, and what I associate it to is adults is like, think about when you lose, you know, you lose it.
Like as adults, we all lose it, right? Yeah. And somebody tells you to calm down. How effective is that? Right? It’s usually not right. It’s usually like who that, you know, because the person that’s telling [00:20:00] you to calm down is usually the person that triggered you in the first place, right? So this isn’t helping.
And that’s the same thing of like telling a kid to do deep breathing, right? ’cause if we’re proactive and do the deep breathing first and, and learn how to do it so that we don’t get as escalated is where it works.
Taylor Day: Exactly. Exactly. And I think it’s, you know, we know at least within autistic children, I would say the large, large majority, if not all, have some form of emotion dysregulation.
And so we do need to be teaching this and working on this. Um, but also the time to do that is not when they’re already escalated. Right. Um, as well. And so I think, you know. Proactive strategies are something in my practice. I lo I focus on way more than reactive strategies of like, okay, here’s exactly what you need to do in the moment.
Instead it’s like, let’s figure out what’s escalating them. What are they trying to communicate with them? With you because any form [00:21:00] of behavior and what seems maybe, again, like oppositional or defiant behavior or intentionally pushing back is usually because we’ve missed early communication markers as well.
Yep. You know, and so they have to escalate to guests to pay attention. And so when we can start to notice some of those more early warning cues, we’re able to then take a pause and support at that level versus the level where they’re at in nine or 10 out of 10. Right.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, that’s, I mean, it’s so, it’s crazy.
And then it’s the practicing of it. I know. So my daughter goes to a physical therapist, Gabrielle, um, who does Alexander technique, um, which I know a lot of people haven’t heard about, but it’s really like, what are the things that I love that Gabrielle’s taught her? Is the ready list? Is that No, I am. Oh, so the ready list is, you know, stop.
Okay. Can you see? Can you breathe? And soft and tall like a giraffe. Its grounding. And it’s grounding. Right? It’s grounding. Exactly. That’s exactly what it is. Yeah. And she does it [00:22:00] related to animals and stuff. And then, um, so, you know, my daughter’s been practicing and learning it. And then, um, there’s a book, the Labyrinth of Gar.
Which uses the ready list. Like it’s kind of cool ’cause they get in, these kids get in like these really scary situations and then they’re like, oh wait, let’s use the ready list. And they use the ready list and then all of a sudden they come up with a solution that works. Yeah. And so it’s really cool of the application and without telling my daughter to do it, just practicing it in the therapy room, she’s now using it.
Right. And then me also telling her like. They asked me how my closing statements went the other day and after a seven day trial, and I’m like, you know what? I did the ready list before I started and like, they were so happy because like hearing that like we as adults need it also. Like get ourselves centered.
Take that minute. And I know I tell my husband all the time, like, if you’re a ready to lose it, say I need to tap out. Right? You know, and, and, and go [00:23:00] tap out. Go, go step away. Because if we are that. Emotionally dysregulated ourselves. Like as you said, going at the child with that, it’s, we’re not gonna
Taylor Day: get anywhere.
No, exactly. And. Any logic and any learning goes out the window there too. And so, yeah, I, I really, any strategies, this is like one, like broad tip, and this is exactly what you’re saying. Any strategies you think are gonna be helpful when your child is dysregulated, you have to practice them over and over and over again when your child is optimally regulated because otherwise, like, they’re not gonna come on board.
Um, I, I. A great analogy to this is like learning to ride a bike, right? We don’t teach kids to first ride their bike up a steep hill ’cause they’re gonna fall over and over and they’re never gonna be successful and they’re gonna give up and they’re gonna say, bike riding doesn’t work. Like, why would I do that?
And so we do it in really supportive and. Scaffolded ways, [00:24:00] you know, on flat ground. They master that. Then we go to the hill. Your child’s emotions are that same thing. You gotta master, master the skill at the optimally regulated state before it’s ever gonna, you know, generalize to the dysregulated
Frances Shefter: state.
That is so true. I love, I have not heard that analogy before. I love that. And it, it’s, it’s true with everything. It’s like you need to start little Mm-Hmm. You know. Oh, wow. Um, so what, like, how do you help families? Like when I get out there, like, this is all great information, but like, I know you said you only do with children, but you do whole family approach.
So like, what, how, how, like if a family’s going, well, okay, I have a PDA kid. What, what do I do? Who do, who do I call? What is it that you can do to help
Taylor Day: families? Yeah. So, you know, again, on kind of two pieces, the diagnosis side. If you’re curious like, is my child autistic? I will do the entire diagnostic evaluation to D, determine if they’re meeting criteria for [00:25:00] autism.
I also, because this is like probably one of my top referrals right now, will get families being like, I’ve, I’ve been. Deep diving into PDA. I think my child is PDA and by default also autistic. Um, and so we’ll do that as part of the conceptualization. Um, and it, it’s a really comprehensive process to get to know your child, your family.
One of my favorite things with that is actually, um, I have parents text me videos all the time. I’m like, I wanna see your kid, what they’re like, you know, on a day-to-day basis and really valuing. Parental input too, as part of this process. And so that’s one side. So I’ll start seeing kids as young as, and this shocks people, um, 14 months of age.
So we know that diagnoses are stable in very, very young kids. Um, and the sooner that we can get a kid diagnosed, the the better. You know, we’re gonna understand how their brain works and how to support them. So that’s one side. And then on the therapy side, I, [00:26:00] I actually have a, you know, different levels of, I have a group therapy model where you’re around other parents of autistic kids.
Um, and then I have, you know, as intensive as one-to-one, but it’s a lot of, you know. Strategy of, okay, here’s what’s going on. Like I love being able to educate and I do a lot of free education, like on my podcast and on social media and all of that. But then what therapy allows us to do is take this application specific to your child and say.
Okay, here’s our action plan. And then you say, oh, that didn’t work. Okay, that’s okay. That didn’t work. I get to come in, look at the data and help us accelerate the process. Um, at the, of your child being able to make this. Progress. And so with PDA, we’re talking a lot about, you know, on the parenting side, how can we make accommodations for it, um, but also, and like make it fun and engaging.
How [00:27:00] can we work on regulation with the kid? But then the whole family aspect comes in like, like I just said here of like. You gotta be regulated first before you’re regulating your child. We’re actually talking about that and talking through what are, what’s blocking that, right? Because for a lot of parents, there’s a lot of blocks that go, oh yeah.
Um, and what do you need? How are you also feeling in all of this? Are you having a day where you do honestly just need to like process through your emotions? We’re gonna hold space for that. And then additionally, thinking about the siblings in this mix. So it’s not this one directional thing where it’s like, okay, these are the recommendations that are best for your child.
It also is thinking about the other children in the family too. Just because it’s optimal for your autistic child doesn’t actually mean it’s realistic and it’s gonna work for your family. And so it’s about balancing all of that out. So really going in depth. I, I love working with families in a way. Um, I think [00:28:00] that traditional care doesn’t, and I like get to know the inner workings of your family and then we’re applying, you know, intervention-based approaches to that.
Yeah.
Frances Shefter: And that, I mean, and that’s why like, I mean, I’ve been in the special ed field for Yeah, a lot of years. Um, I mean, back when it was just autism and if it wasn’t diagnosed before the age of three, then you weren’t autistic. And then they came out with, and I always forget what it was called again, but the, um, what was the other one?
The. Oh, um, Asperger’s? Yes. Asperger’s. Thank you. I don’t know why that just doesn’t stick in my head anymore. Yeah. But then it was Asperger’s if you were over the age of three and now it’s the spectrum because as we’ve learned more, no two autistic children are the same. Right, right. You know, and it’s like as much as we educate, ’cause I’m the same way and I know that’s a lot of how we were drawn to each other is like, that’s why I have my show and I have my YouTube channel and I’m always trying to educate families.
Um. Because it’s just, that’s who we are. It’s like let’s educate and it’s giving the [00:29:00] general, but as you said, each child is different, each family is different, and each the interaction is different. And so it’s what works for family A is not gonna necessarily gonna work for family
Taylor Day: B. Yeah, and I think one of the things I love social media, like it’s where I show up all the time, provide tons of free education, but also there’s two pieces of this is number one, a lot of the information on social media is designed for neurotypical kids.
And so parents then go try to apply it, and then they feel like something is flawed with them. What am I doing wrong? They feel so much guilt and shame that you know that they haven’t figured it out, they haven’t cracked the code for their child, and it’s that that approach is not likely optimal for your autistic child.
So that’s number one, but also number two, and again, I, I, I talk through all of this all the time, but. Nothing is a blanket approach, and so [00:30:00] this is where. Yes. Consume information on social media as a way to say, Hey, could this work for my child as an experiment? Um, and at the same time, recognizing it might not work and that that’s okay, but this is where working with, you know, uh.
A therapist or a psychologist, a licensed professional who understands, you know, autism, again, I’d look for that neurodivergent affirming care. Um, but understands the broader scope. And I often say like it still is trial and error. It still is an experiment and I think that shocks parents quite a lot ’cause they want to come to me for this fix and I’m like.
It. It doesn’t work like that. And any provider that tells you it works like that is just mm-hmm. You know, feeding you false information of trying to like, you know, either get your hopes up or trying to get you to work with them. So it is still an experiment and trial and error, but [00:31:00] it’s almost like I can add accelerant to it.
I can go with you and we can make it through this experiment so much more quickly than if you were to do it alone. But you also, it’s okay if you’re like. We’re not in a place to access services right now, and you can leverage it, but have that experimentation mindset would be my biggest recommendation.
Frances Shefter: Right. Yeah, no, that’s so true. ’cause again, like there, it’s, everybody’s so different and every family’s different and how they interact is so different. Um, and I just, yeah, like, um, yeah, the, you know, I was, so, it’s funny ’cause I don’t usually look at people’s websites before I have them on the show because I want it to be more natural.
And if I figure, if I read the website that I might not ask the questions. But I know like, one of the other reasons we connected is that the, is the wait and see and how that, it’s just like the worst thing in the world, right? And Right. And then you said, and I mean, I had people tell me, wait and see. I’m like, yeah, no, you’re coming in evaluating today.
Thank you. Yeah. Um, but you said you started working with kids at 14 months. Mm-Hmm. [00:32:00] And I mean, I know from my education, from, you know, early childhood is like the earlier you start, the better. Because as you wait longer, the kids develop habits and then you’re not, you’re retraining completely. So like, how does it work though?
Like, because what’s going in my head with. The PDA profile is like, how could, do you see the PDA profile in children that young or It’s, no, it’s more than
Taylor Day: just that usually that young, um, right. But I will say, like, I just, I. Had a three-year-old that I diagnosed as autistic and the PDA profile very much fit.
So it does come on in those toddler to preschool years, I think 14 months. I’m often thinking, let’s get the earliest diagnosis. And again, you know, there’s a lot about like. The benefits of early intervention support, and I’ve always been such a fan of that in the work that I do. And you know, listening to the autistic community, I think sometimes we conceptualize it as like [00:33:00] rewiring the brain.
Well, your child’s brain is wired a certain way and some of that is building. Of those differences. However, what I still think early intervention can be incredibly valuable for is helping you as a parent to know and understand your child holistically, how their brain is wired. Be able to support that.
And I think it often prevents a lot of negative feedback from happening too, right? Where it’s like, oh, your kid’s just being a bad kid, and then like you’re trying these experiments of like, oh, I’m supposed to just ignore their behavior. Like, no. That’s, that’s not effective. And that’s also not treating them as the human that they are.
And so we get to skip, uh, through a lot of that, like bad information out there and go again to say, okay, what are my child’s strengths? How can we promote those? If your child loves lining up [00:34:00] toys, you know, you’ll hear some non-affirming approaches that say, oh, you should go and mess it up and teach them how to play differently.
What I teach in early intervention, ’cause I’ll also work with families after they’re like, get that early diagnosis is, okay, what I want you to do, go grab your own set. How can you start lining them up? How can you be face-to-face with them to enter their world because we can leverage this, this love of lining things up as a connection point.
And so, you know, I think it, it allows you to bypass maybe some of these non-affirming approaches. Right,
Frances Shefter: which is, yeah, it’s so true. And like, starting early. I’m just thinking about like, I know, um, autistic burnout is a big thing. Um, you know, for our older kids. And first off, I wanna put out there it is not your fault.
Parents, if your kids get to the point of autistic burnout, it is not your fault. There’s nothing you could have done differently. It’s where we are and let’s move forward. I always, I always wanna say that because I know as a parent, [00:35:00] you know, um, we beat ourselves up all the time. You know, I’m like, ugh.
With all my background and my child is speech delayed. You know? ’cause my, my oldest had speech delays, like, how did that happen and, and stuff. And you know, I even do, but it’s, we’re doing the best we can with what we have. And the fact that you’re out there looking for more to help support your child, um, is so important.
And so, like what I’m thinking is like if we get the children earlier and connect and start that, it’s potentially won’t get to that point of autistic burnout as they get
Taylor Day: older. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, I heard something, I learned this actually literally just recently, and I thought it was so amazing to think about it.
In this way. Autistic burnout, not only is that chronic exhaustion that lasts three months or more, and that’s not specific to being autistic, we get that. You know, you’ll see that in terms of careers, for example. But then we often see too, like a reduced ability to navigate sensory [00:36:00] input, like more sensory sensitive.
Activities that come with autistic burnout, as well as this is where we often see some of that, like regression in skills. Um, and so I think when we think about each of those three pieces, being able to prevent some of those are so impactful. Um, and, you know, like I, I think it, it can be such this supportive approach and some of it is.
There is some of it where your child might have gone through early intervention and early therapeutic support and then something isn’t optimal for them. And I, I, I do see this is why, especially with PDA, because autistic burnout is so common with PDA is this is why a lot of parents are pulling their kids outta school.
But I also, in doing homeschooling or unschooling, I also will say I have families that are like. You know, that doesn’t work for our life. So how do we navigate in [00:37:00] the advocacy of getting school to come on board? And I will say that this is not the easiest feat, but I, I have had some schools that are more willing to reduce the demands and really understand this conceptualization of PDA.
So I hope that’s the trend in the way that we, we start to grow.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. Yeah, that’s one of the things I’m starting to do and one of the things I’m trying to do, um, with the families I work with is when we do get the autism code, I always make them put the PDA profile in because it’s not its own code, but with our PDA kids, you can’t treat them like an autistic child without the PDA.
’cause it’s very different because, you know, everybody’s taught, oh, autism, you know, kids with autism need structure and they need to know da-da-da-da. That doesn’t work with a PDA child. Yeah. You know, it’s gonna have the opposite effect. Exactly. And it’s, it’s definitely, you know, I know it’s been the trend.
Like it’s, it’s just coming out now and more people are becoming more aware of it. [00:38:00] Um, and I’m hoping the schools, I mean, don’t get me started on the schools. There’s such a hot mess. You right. Yeah. As good as, as much better as we are than we were. It’s still not like for our neurodiverse kids, but they, they can’t.
You know, I keep, you know, the schools can only do so much, and that’s why there’s a lot of times I’ll have strategy sessions with potential clients and tell them like, look, yes, I could go and get you a perfect IP, but honestly for your child, this is what I recommend. Yeah. You know, because it’s sometimes the school system is not, is not the right place for your child, unfortunately.
Like, are they, are they legally required to do stuff? Yes. But that doesn’t mean it’s the best place
Taylor Day: for your child. Right, right. Exactly. Mm-Hmm. And just because it’s on paper sometimes, I mean, I know there’s legal to this, but then yeah, it can be something on paper, but is that what they’re actually executing too?
Exactly. Um, and so I think that’s important. Yeah. And I think, you know, understanding if. I guess if parents are interested in learning PDA, I do have, um, and I can share it later with you, a [00:39:00] free like handout that it’s like things that I include in my reports and different resources and then also a little sneak peek, um, at the, probably I.
Um, I don’t have an exact date yet, but early March I’m looking to, uh, release a PDA course and these are the things that I work on with families in therapy. Um, but making it more accessible so that if parents are like, I wanna learn more about PDA, I wanna understand, you know, does my child have this?
What could diagnosis look like? Um, what are the, you know, support strategies. But then also thinking about some of these other pieces with advocacy and all of that. Um, so not only learning, but having it jam-packed with what you do, um, to respond to it as
Frances Shefter: well. Awesome. I am so excited to hear all of this, and I’m, I’m like, okay, I need to sign up for this because even, you know, like for me as an education attorney and a parent, you know, I want to know all of this stuff to help support my families.
Right. [00:40:00] You know, and that’s the thing, and so that’s why I’m very big on educating myself, even if it’s not something that my child might have, whatever it is, because if I don’t understand it fully, then how can I help get the IEP to reflect what it needs?
Taylor Day: Totally. Well, and I’m sure you’re getting so many, I’m getting so many referrals right now.
’cause I think what’s happening with PDA is it’s been in the UK for quite some time. Yeah. It’s just finally making its way to the US and I think for so many parents that have a PDA kid, they’re like, all of a sudden they, they feel so. Seen and heard by it. Yeah. They’re finally like, oh my gosh, something makes sense.
And it’s not people telling me that I’m a bad parent either. Yeah. Because I think that can be a lot of the feedback of like, you just need more discipline. That’s what the issue is. Yeah. And then again, parents try that because they’re like, maybe, maybe someone’s right. You know? And then that backfires and so there, there sometimes can be a lot of hopelessness.
And what I am hearing is parents going. Oh my gosh. I [00:41:00] discovered this and it finally felt like something clicked. It finally felt like something was explaining my child and it Yes. And I get it. Yep. Yeah, I get it. And like I understand my child now and I feel a little less alone in this too.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s awesome.
I’m so excited. I’m like, and I’m like thinking through my head of like, which clients am I sending this to immediately? You know, because I have a couple of clients and it, it’s important and it’s good, it’s great information and I love it. Um, so I know we’re gonna have your link, um, in the show night notes for the, so I, if you send us the PDA link, I’ll make sure that we have the, um, the handout link as well.
Perfect. Um, as your course, and I know you also have your own podcast, right? Yeah. Yes. Called Evolve. Yeah, evolve and that, yeah. Right. And that’s focused on for autism parents. Right. Mainly.
Taylor Day: Correct. Yeah. I would say, you know, it definitely is designed with autism parents in mind. Um, I think I have something like 94 episodes currently.
Wow. And so I love just [00:42:00] providing free education in more of a long-form content. Um, a place where you can go and get reputable information, um, and be able to really learn in deep dive. I have some incredible guests on it. Um. We’ll have to try to get you on the podcast. I would
Frances Shefter: love to do. Yeah, definitely.
Thank you. Of course. Um, I love this, uh, I’m sorry, I, I know we could talk all day ’cause our brains are so aligned with the Yeah. With, you know, the same way and stuff. And I’m so glad we connected and thank you so much for being on the show. Yeah,
Taylor Day: thank you.
Voiceover: You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEP with your host, Frances Shefter. Remember, you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through ShefterLaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews. Comments and sharing the show with others through YouTube, LinkedIn, apple, Podcasts, Spotify, Google [00:43:00] Podcasts, Stitcher, and more.
Neurodivergent Affirming Care for Autistic Children and Their Families with Dr. Taylor Day
Stress-Free IEP® with Frances Shefter, Ep 45
In this episode of Stress-Free IEP®, Frances speaks with Dr. Taylor Day, child psychologist and parental coach for autistic children. Owner of Dr. Tay, Concierge Clinical Care, Dr. Tay specializes in neurodivergent affirming care for autistic children and their families.
Tune in to the episode to hear about:
Download Free Support Guide for Your PDA Child: https://link.drtaycoaching.com/widget/form/KeUxZnuE3NugzY7fgUCh
Learn more about Dr. Taylor Day:
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Watch or listen to this related episode: The Power and Importance Behind Self-control in Children with Dr. Bill Stixrud
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Stress-Free IEP®:
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP® experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
Watch more episodes of Stress-Free IEP®:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCff0foIeCETrWbtsQSDwckQ
Connect and learn more from your host, Frances Shefter:
Read the full transcript to this episode:
Voiceover: [00:00:00] Welcome to Stress-Free IEP. You do not need to do it all alone with your host, Frances Shefter, principal of Shefter Law. You can get more details than catch prior episodes@www.shefterlaw.com. The Stress-Free IEP video podcast is also posted on YouTube and LinkedIn, and you can listen to episodes through Apple, Podcasts Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, and more.
Now, here’s the host of Stress-Free IEP Frances Schefter.
Frances Shefter: Hello everyone and welcome to our show. Um, I am excited, like I always say, but I am excited. I love having my guests on my show and it’s awesome. So, but today’s guest is Dr. Taylor Day, who has Dr. Tay Concierge Clinical Care. So Dr. Tay, tell me a little bit about [00:01:00] your clinic and what you focus on.
Taylor Day: Yeah. Well thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be here as well. So I am a child psychologist and I specialize in neurodivergent affirming care for autistic children and their families. And so as part of my practice, Dr. Tay, Concierge Clinical Care, I really focus, you know, both on the diagnosis of autism and therapeutic supports, but really it, the concierge part of it is that.
It, it’s all about how we can create really high quality, high touch care. Um, you know, the, the large reality is that you go get your child evaluated, you get a short time span, you know, you get the answer, you’re moving on. I love being able to create a more seamless process where parents can get that continued support, that they’re really feeling heard and supported.
And on the therapy side too, of like, how can we integrate? What the family’s working on, you know, with me in different settings and doing [00:02:00] care coordination and all of that. So it’s a whole family approach. It is a whole family approach. I think that is a really big gap in the autism field and really was inspired honestly by my personal background.
I grew up, um, I have a brother who’s 10 years younger than me, and he was diagnosed with autism when he was twenty-three months of age. And I, I saw how all the support was directed to him, but there wasn’t a lot of support for my parents. And then by in turn. For me through this process as well. So I wanted to kind of change how care was done.
Frances Shefter: I love that it’s, you know, it’s so great ’cause so many of us do what we do because of our personal experiences. Mm-Hmm. And I know Autism’s been, you know, my firm. We do everything. But like more recently where most of our cases are with kids with autism and we get it often that the parents don’t know what to do and don’t know how to do.
And you know, often they’re like, we wish we had known you sooner. We wish we had known that sooner, which is part of the [00:03:00] reason I have the show is to put it out there of like, Hey, look, you don’t have to do this all alone. You know? Um, and so like, I love, like so neurodivergent affirming care. Let’s unpack that a little bit ’cause I’m sure people are like, what is that?
Taylor Day: What is that? Yeah, absolutely. And it’s kind of a buzzword right now, but, and it’s interesting. I’ll be candid, even on the buzzword side of, you’ll see it thrown around, but it’s really about do. Clinical care providers or really any, anyone working with your child, use this approach. And so where it’s based out of, so there’s this I umbrella term called neurodiversity, and it’s this idea that all brains think different and different is not bad or something that we need to change.
And so under that neurodiversity umbrella we have, you know, neurotypical individuals. So their brain is wired the way that our society typically thinks of things. And a lot of our standards and the way that we do things are based on these neurotypical standards. [00:04:00] And then we also have neurodivergence, again, like, like the word says.
Diverging from that neurotypicality with how the brain is wired. And then under that, um, we also have all these different disabilities and autism being one that falls under that neuro divergent umbrella. And so what affirming care really comes down to is understanding that an autistic child’s brain, I work exclusively with children.
But understanding an autistic child’s brain is different. And what that means is we don’t necessarily need to think about how do we make them look. Like their neurotypical peers. Instead, we want to figure out what this child’s unique profile is. What are their strengths and what are their support needs?
And the reality is, as humans, we all have strengths and support needs. Um, and often for autistic children, they just have some more support needs and we really wanna make sure that we’re coming at this [00:05:00] too, that we’re not just teaching them. To mask to look like their neurotypical ears. Exactly.
Frances Shefter: That was gonna be my question about it, like masking.
’cause I know that’s a big thing of like, you know, a lot of people are against ABA therapy, which I know you’re neutral on. Um, but they think it’s forcing the kids to be like everybody else instead of finding their own space. Yeah. Um, yeah, and it just, and I know with masking it’s hard. That’s one of the things when I,, when I go to IEP meetings to get kids found eligible, a lot of times schools will say, yes, they have ASD, but they’re not, it’s not, there’s no educational impact because they don’t see the behaviors at home.
Correct. Because the child keeps it together, you know, all the school day masking doing what they have to, and then they fall apart at home.
Taylor Day: Absolutely, and I think we see this in particular, there’s a pro, a theorized profile type called PDA or pathological demand avoidance. Um, and then the autistic community prefers persistent drive for autonomy, [00:06:00] but basically, oh.
Yeah, I haven’t heard that one
Frances Shefter: yet. I, I, yeah. The other, I’ve heard lots of, ’cause I have clients like lots of it, but I like that one.
Taylor Day: Yeah. Because the name pathological like it, that in and of itself isn’t affirming, so I always use that because I think it’s more well known. But then listening to Autistic voices and talking about what they prefer as well as how it’s experienced.
And so what happens is when there’s a perceived loss of autonomy, the nervous system goes into this. Fight-or-flight mode. So it’s more the loss of autonomy that’s creating this than the demand, per se. Um, but the demand often comes with that loss of autonomy. And so we often see really high-masking autism that happens at school, um, especially with these PDA kids, and they can look so different and different.
Settings. And what’s really interesting is, I hear this all the time too, there’s not this educational need, but the kids then going home and melting [00:07:00] down, right? Yep. And it’s like there’s so many more supportive approaches that we could be doing in school to help this child to stay more regulated throughout the entire day.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. And that’s, that’s my argument usually what IU uh, a lot of times people have heard me say at IEP meetings, like, think of it as this way as adults, when you have a really stressful day that you’ve had to hold it together all day. What do we do when we get home? Have a glass of wine, go for a run, do something.
What do these kids have? They don’t. And so since we’re forcing them all day to mask and, and hold it together, they fall apart at home. Whereas we put the supports in place at school. There’s just gonna be a peace and harmony throughout. Absolutely. It’s be better for everyone.
Taylor Day: Yeah. Yeah. I often think about it as like there’s a, a jug inside of all of us and this, this is a human experience, but for many autistic kids, but particularly autistic kids with the PDA profile, their jug is much smaller, [00:08:00] so they have.
You know, it fills up more rapidly and so they’re able, you know, to maybe hold it together for six hours of school. But all these demands and loss of autonomies are coming in. And going back to the masking piece too, like a great example of this in an IEP that I see a lot is talking about eye contact goals.
Well, there should never be eye contact goals. There’s. So many different ways to communicate, to learn, to engage. And so that’s one that like rapidly fills up the cup. Um, and then also kids learn, oh, well this is how I get the attention I want. Or this is how I, I get to do X, Y, and Z. And so they’ll do it, but it’s creating this dysregulation in their system.
And so I think that, you know, it is something we need to really be thinking through and making sure that. Yeah. We’re not just trying to make autistic kids look like they’re neurotypical peers. Yeah,
Frances Shefter: that’s, and it’s so true. It’s, [00:09:00] it’s, it’s definitely frustrating when you see like all the behavior charts, like, you know, calm hands, well, you know what, maybe they don’t need calm hands.
Right. You know? Right. You know, hands to themselves. Yes. But calm hands isn’t necessarily, I mean, I twiddle all the time. I do this with my thumbs, you know, and is that calm hands? Technically not, but it’s what I need to do, so. Right. Exactly. Um, yeah, I love that. I love this persistent drive for autonomy. So let’s unpack that a little bit for people that are going, well, what does that mean?
What does autonomy mean? Yeah.
Taylor Day: Yeah. So you know, in parent-child relationships or really any adult-child relationship, there is just a natural hierarchy that happens where adults are in charge, they’re giving the demands, kids are responding, you know, and when, and you mentioned about ABA earlier, one of the concerns with ABA too is it’s very compliance driven, where we’re just teaching kids that they have to respond in a certain way.
Well, for kids with this persistent drive for autonomy, what [00:10:00] happens is literally it creates activation and I often conceptualize it as anxiety in their nervous system. And so, you know, what ends up happening is then we’re gonna, sometimes for some kids that have the PDA profile, we get more of an externalized.
Um, subtype of it where it’s like, no, I’m not doing that. I refuse to do anything. You know, everything is an argument. They’re constantly correcting their parents. Parents feel like they’re walking on eggshells. So all of that can happen, and that’s because there’s this hierarchy in place where, you know, their nervous system feels very out of control.
They’re very anxious, and, and that hierarchy adds to it for kids with more of the internalized. Subtype of PDA, then what we often see is really, really anxious kids. But again, these kids often want to control not doing it to be defiant or oppositional or just not listen. They’re. [00:11:00] They know it’s effective for regulating and calling calming how their body feels.
That is
Frances Shefter: just, oh my God, I’m so like I am. It’s blowing my mind. ’cause this has been a PDA has been a huge thing recently. I had a client a couple of years ago, not even, I think it might have been two years ago, that brought my attention to it and I started researching it and now I’m starting to see it more often.
Um, and a couple of day, a couple of weeks ago, I had Dr. Stixrud on the show, and he was talking about how. Kids need control. So even our kids not, you know, on the PDA profile under ASD, but just kids in general need to feel some sort of control of their life. And that’s, that’s like what that battle is, that as parents, we’re never gonna win when we get in that battle with the kids.
Right. You know, we know that. Exactly. ’cause what’s gonna happen. Okay, so we get them to bend to our will, but why? How is that really what we want? You know?
Taylor Day: Exactly. Yeah, and it’s interesting too to even think about from this standpoint of like [00:12:00] literally like height differences, right? Parents and other adults tend to stand over kids, and so it creates that.
And so one of the things when you’re getting kind of what appears to be this more willful behavior, actually squatting down and getting on your kids’ level, going to face, face to face with them, it takes away that that perceived hierarchy right there and it. Feels more collaborative and we often can make so much more progress.
But it does take a parenting mindset shift or in the school system, a teacher, you know, mindset shift. And I will say. I’m finding schools are having a really hard time right now with this PDA concept. Um, and we’re, we’re seeing this movement then of a lot of these PDA kids being pulled out of school and they’re being homeschooled or doing unschooling because basically the, the demands that they’re getting throughout the day, they’re not learning anything we know.[00:13:00]
We know for a fact kids have to be both, um, engaged and regulated in order to learn. And so if that’s not optimized, then they’re just going to school to go to school.
Frances Shefter: Right. No, that’s so true. It’s, it’s crazy. Somebody had said once that, that kids with the, or even adults with the PDA profile don’t see hierarchy, so they don’t see that people, is that what it is?
Or they just don’t respect like. W what’s the relationship like? They’re saying like they don’t, they feel that everybody’s on the
Taylor Day: same level. Well, you think about it this way, like this idea of hierarchy is. A socially driven concept, right? That we as a society and as a culture have said this is what’s to be true.
And so like in the US we think about it one way, but other countries think about it and other cultures think about it differently. So it’s a social driven construct. And so then when we think about Neurodivergence as a whole, a lot of times neurodivergent [00:14:00] individuals, if things don’t make sense, they’re just.
They’re more likely to be like, well, why are we doing it this way? Which is such an incredible trait, honestly, that I think for those that aren’t neurodivergent could very much learn from. And so I think that’s some of where, where it possibly could come from of like, well, this doesn’t make any sense. And it also, in terms of the neurodivergent affirming care lens, would say we’re seeing children as, as human beings.
First, and so I think that’s maybe some of where it comes from, but I think it’s also both a proactive conceptualization but also a response. You know, if my nervous system felt like it was on edge and like that, that feeling where it’s like you’re about to run from a bear all the time, then I wouldn’t buy into the hierarchy either.
Frances Shefter: Right. No, that totally makes sense. It’s just, yeah, it’s crazy. Um, so emotional dysregulation. I know I looked on your [00:15:00] website real quick and I was really excited ’cause I saw that you had the master class in emotional regulation and I signed up for it because my child has some, well, I, you know what I say my child, but you know, all children have emotional dysregulation issues, even the neurotypical because they’re never taught how to manage their emotions.
Right, right.
Taylor Day: And so, I mean, as adults we have emotion dysregulation too, right? Right.
Frances Shefter: Exactly. Exactly. You sh you should hear when I drive, everybody knows like, don’t put your kids in the car with me. It’s not pretty, but yeah. I mean, but that’s, but that’s it. It’s emotional dysregulation. And so today. My daughter, it was just, I don’t know what was up with her, but she was just completely dysregulated this morning, screaming and yelling and crying and a mess.
And I just, and I was getting mad at her ’cause she was being disrespectful. And I’m like, wait a minute. Stop. This isn’t working. And she was lying in my bed crying and I just went over there and held her. Mm-Hmm. And I just hugged her for two minutes and that was it. She was fine. She was [00:16:00] able to get herself re-regulated.
She got up, got in the shower, got herself ready for school, and everything was beautiful. And it was just like, that’s been a mind shift for me of that, you know, I was brought up in the era of, you do what I say, ’cause I’m the father, or I’m the mother, period. You know, like nothing. And that doesn’t work for my kids.
That doesn’t work for most of today’s generations. You know, they need to know that why. And so I know for me, like that’s something like what other techniques do you have that, that you could, not spilling the whole class, but like, you know, techniques for parents.
Taylor Day: Yeah. And I, I think that some of this is, we have to take a step back too and recognize what you are describing.
That is, that is, I keep saying a human, like bringing up this idea of human, but that’s a human reaction. When someone else escalates, our nervous system automatically responds and escalates with them. Yep. And so it takes a lot of intentionality and I think a lot of times when we’re thinking about [00:17:00] teaching emotion regulation, I, I will say I see a lot of misinformation out there where it’s like, oh, well we need to go through flashcards and teach kids different emotions.
In particular for neurodivergent kids, it doesn’t generalize. But even for neurotypical kids, I think one of the things to think about is like. Is that really the skill we wanna spend time teaching And I think often it’s not often we think it’s gonna get us to that end result. And so what I really, you know, ultimately recommend, first and foremost, is the parent working on their own emotion regulation first.
Steps, um, because of two reasons. One, as you activate, they’re gonna continue to activate and escalate. Yep. Um, so if you can be counter to that, it actually helps to right then and there, start to regulate things. But number two is. Modeling is an extremely powerful form of learning. And so [00:18:00] what you are modeling actually your, your child begins to learn that as well.
And so one, are we modeling emotional avoidance? I think this is really common with like our generations, like older generations of adults. It’s, we were told to. And taught to suppress our emotions. And so are we modeling that to kids. And then also like we, you know, one of the things I hear a lot of times is, well, deep breathing doesn’t work for my child.
And I’m like, let, let’s take a step back. Why doesn’t it work? Well, you’re often telling them one to do deep breathing only when they’re escalated. So they associate it exactly with a negative thing. Number two is, you know, again, logic goes out the window, so you’re telling them to do something that’s not natural to them.
Um, and also, you know, the way in which we do it, are you screaming at them saying you need to take deep [00:19:00] breaths like. Also not helpful. So instead, what I say to parents is, I want you to start taking deep breaths. I don’t even want you to prompt your kid to take deep breaths. And I love this idea of loud, audible breaths.
We actually know, you know, from a, um, kind of nervous system sense that, uh, someone hearing that actually helps to regulate them as well. And so not only are you calming your nervous system so you can more effectively respond. At the same time they’re starting to hear it and it’s already starting to bring them down.
Frances Shefter: Right. Which is so, I mean, it’s so true. And like thinking about it, like you’re saying the flash cards. Well, yeah. So they can learn the flash cards, the emotions, but when they’re in the heat of the emotion, they’re not gonna remember all that. No. And they’re not gonna do all that. It’s like, and what I associate it to is adults is like, think about when you lose, you know, you lose it.
Like as adults, we all lose it, right? Yeah. And somebody tells you to calm down. How effective is that? Right? It’s usually not right. It’s usually like who that, you know, because the person that’s telling [00:20:00] you to calm down is usually the person that triggered you in the first place, right? So this isn’t helping.
And that’s the same thing of like telling a kid to do deep breathing, right? ’cause if we’re proactive and do the deep breathing first and, and learn how to do it so that we don’t get as escalated is where it works.
Taylor Day: Exactly. Exactly. And I think it’s, you know, we know at least within autistic children, I would say the large, large majority, if not all, have some form of emotion dysregulation.
And so we do need to be teaching this and working on this. Um, but also the time to do that is not when they’re already escalated. Right. Um, as well. And so I think, you know. Proactive strategies are something in my practice. I lo I focus on way more than reactive strategies of like, okay, here’s exactly what you need to do in the moment.
Instead it’s like, let’s figure out what’s escalating them. What are they trying to communicate with them? With you because any form [00:21:00] of behavior and what seems maybe, again, like oppositional or defiant behavior or intentionally pushing back is usually because we’ve missed early communication markers as well.
Yep. You know, and so they have to escalate to guests to pay attention. And so when we can start to notice some of those more early warning cues, we’re able to then take a pause and support at that level versus the level where they’re at in nine or 10 out of 10. Right.
Frances Shefter: Yeah, that’s, I mean, it’s so, it’s crazy.
And then it’s the practicing of it. I know. So my daughter goes to a physical therapist, Gabrielle, um, who does Alexander technique, um, which I know a lot of people haven’t heard about, but it’s really like, what are the things that I love that Gabrielle’s taught her? Is the ready list? Is that No, I am. Oh, so the ready list is, you know, stop.
Okay. Can you see? Can you breathe? And soft and tall like a giraffe. Its grounding. And it’s grounding. Right? It’s grounding. Exactly. That’s exactly what it is. Yeah. And she does it [00:22:00] related to animals and stuff. And then, um, so, you know, my daughter’s been practicing and learning it. And then, um, there’s a book, the Labyrinth of Gar.
Which uses the ready list. Like it’s kind of cool ’cause they get in, these kids get in like these really scary situations and then they’re like, oh wait, let’s use the ready list. And they use the ready list and then all of a sudden they come up with a solution that works. Yeah. And so it’s really cool of the application and without telling my daughter to do it, just practicing it in the therapy room, she’s now using it.
Right. And then me also telling her like. They asked me how my closing statements went the other day and after a seven day trial, and I’m like, you know what? I did the ready list before I started and like, they were so happy because like hearing that like we as adults need it also. Like get ourselves centered.
Take that minute. And I know I tell my husband all the time, like, if you’re a ready to lose it, say I need to tap out. Right? You know, and, and, and go [00:23:00] tap out. Go, go step away. Because if we are that. Emotionally dysregulated ourselves. Like as you said, going at the child with that, it’s, we’re not gonna
Taylor Day: get anywhere.
No, exactly. And. Any logic and any learning goes out the window there too. And so, yeah, I, I really, any strategies, this is like one, like broad tip, and this is exactly what you’re saying. Any strategies you think are gonna be helpful when your child is dysregulated, you have to practice them over and over and over again when your child is optimally regulated because otherwise, like, they’re not gonna come on board.
Um, I, I. A great analogy to this is like learning to ride a bike, right? We don’t teach kids to first ride their bike up a steep hill ’cause they’re gonna fall over and over and they’re never gonna be successful and they’re gonna give up and they’re gonna say, bike riding doesn’t work. Like, why would I do that?
And so we do it in really supportive and. Scaffolded ways, [00:24:00] you know, on flat ground. They master that. Then we go to the hill. Your child’s emotions are that same thing. You gotta master, master the skill at the optimally regulated state before it’s ever gonna, you know, generalize to the dysregulated
Frances Shefter: state.
That is so true. I love, I have not heard that analogy before. I love that. And it, it’s, it’s true with everything. It’s like you need to start little Mm-Hmm. You know. Oh, wow. Um, so what, like, how do you help families? Like when I get out there, like, this is all great information, but like, I know you said you only do with children, but you do whole family approach.
So like, what, how, how, like if a family’s going, well, okay, I have a PDA kid. What, what do I do? Who do, who do I call? What is it that you can do to help
Taylor Day: families? Yeah. So, you know, again, on kind of two pieces, the diagnosis side. If you’re curious like, is my child autistic? I will do the entire diagnostic evaluation to D, determine if they’re meeting criteria for [00:25:00] autism.
I also, because this is like probably one of my top referrals right now, will get families being like, I’ve, I’ve been. Deep diving into PDA. I think my child is PDA and by default also autistic. Um, and so we’ll do that as part of the conceptualization. Um, and it, it’s a really comprehensive process to get to know your child, your family.
One of my favorite things with that is actually, um, I have parents text me videos all the time. I’m like, I wanna see your kid, what they’re like, you know, on a day-to-day basis and really valuing. Parental input too, as part of this process. And so that’s one side. So I’ll start seeing kids as young as, and this shocks people, um, 14 months of age.
So we know that diagnoses are stable in very, very young kids. Um, and the sooner that we can get a kid diagnosed, the the better. You know, we’re gonna understand how their brain works and how to support them. So that’s one side. And then on the therapy side, I, [00:26:00] I actually have a, you know, different levels of, I have a group therapy model where you’re around other parents of autistic kids.
Um, and then I have, you know, as intensive as one-to-one, but it’s a lot of, you know. Strategy of, okay, here’s what’s going on. Like I love being able to educate and I do a lot of free education, like on my podcast and on social media and all of that. But then what therapy allows us to do is take this application specific to your child and say.
Okay, here’s our action plan. And then you say, oh, that didn’t work. Okay, that’s okay. That didn’t work. I get to come in, look at the data and help us accelerate the process. Um, at the, of your child being able to make this. Progress. And so with PDA, we’re talking a lot about, you know, on the parenting side, how can we make accommodations for it, um, but also, and like make it fun and engaging.
How [00:27:00] can we work on regulation with the kid? But then the whole family aspect comes in like, like I just said here of like. You gotta be regulated first before you’re regulating your child. We’re actually talking about that and talking through what are, what’s blocking that, right? Because for a lot of parents, there’s a lot of blocks that go, oh yeah.
Um, and what do you need? How are you also feeling in all of this? Are you having a day where you do honestly just need to like process through your emotions? We’re gonna hold space for that. And then additionally, thinking about the siblings in this mix. So it’s not this one directional thing where it’s like, okay, these are the recommendations that are best for your child.
It also is thinking about the other children in the family too. Just because it’s optimal for your autistic child doesn’t actually mean it’s realistic and it’s gonna work for your family. And so it’s about balancing all of that out. So really going in depth. I, I love working with families in a way. Um, I think [00:28:00] that traditional care doesn’t, and I like get to know the inner workings of your family and then we’re applying, you know, intervention-based approaches to that.
Yeah.
Frances Shefter: And that, I mean, and that’s why like, I mean, I’ve been in the special ed field for Yeah, a lot of years. Um, I mean, back when it was just autism and if it wasn’t diagnosed before the age of three, then you weren’t autistic. And then they came out with, and I always forget what it was called again, but the, um, what was the other one?
The. Oh, um, Asperger’s? Yes. Asperger’s. Thank you. I don’t know why that just doesn’t stick in my head anymore. Yeah. But then it was Asperger’s if you were over the age of three and now it’s the spectrum because as we’ve learned more, no two autistic children are the same. Right, right. You know, and it’s like as much as we educate, ’cause I’m the same way and I know that’s a lot of how we were drawn to each other is like, that’s why I have my show and I have my YouTube channel and I’m always trying to educate families.
Um. Because it’s just, that’s who we are. It’s like let’s educate and it’s giving the [00:29:00] general, but as you said, each child is different, each family is different, and each the interaction is different. And so it’s what works for family A is not gonna necessarily gonna work for family
Taylor Day: B. Yeah, and I think one of the things I love social media, like it’s where I show up all the time, provide tons of free education, but also there’s two pieces of this is number one, a lot of the information on social media is designed for neurotypical kids.
And so parents then go try to apply it, and then they feel like something is flawed with them. What am I doing wrong? They feel so much guilt and shame that you know that they haven’t figured it out, they haven’t cracked the code for their child, and it’s that that approach is not likely optimal for your autistic child.
So that’s number one, but also number two, and again, I, I, I talk through all of this all the time, but. Nothing is a blanket approach, and so [00:30:00] this is where. Yes. Consume information on social media as a way to say, Hey, could this work for my child as an experiment? Um, and at the same time, recognizing it might not work and that that’s okay, but this is where working with, you know, uh.
A therapist or a psychologist, a licensed professional who understands, you know, autism, again, I’d look for that neurodivergent affirming care. Um, but understands the broader scope. And I often say like it still is trial and error. It still is an experiment and I think that shocks parents quite a lot ’cause they want to come to me for this fix and I’m like.
It. It doesn’t work like that. And any provider that tells you it works like that is just mm-hmm. You know, feeding you false information of trying to like, you know, either get your hopes up or trying to get you to work with them. So it is still an experiment and trial and error, but [00:31:00] it’s almost like I can add accelerant to it.
I can go with you and we can make it through this experiment so much more quickly than if you were to do it alone. But you also, it’s okay if you’re like. We’re not in a place to access services right now, and you can leverage it, but have that experimentation mindset would be my biggest recommendation.
Frances Shefter: Right. Yeah, no, that’s so true. ’cause again, like there, it’s, everybody’s so different and every family’s different and how they interact is so different. Um, and I just, yeah, like, um, yeah, the, you know, I was, so, it’s funny ’cause I don’t usually look at people’s websites before I have them on the show because I want it to be more natural.
And if I figure, if I read the website that I might not ask the questions. But I know like, one of the other reasons we connected is that the, is the wait and see and how that, it’s just like the worst thing in the world, right? And Right. And then you said, and I mean, I had people tell me, wait and see. I’m like, yeah, no, you’re coming in evaluating today.
Thank you. Yeah. Um, but you said you started working with kids at 14 months. Mm-Hmm. [00:32:00] And I mean, I know from my education, from, you know, early childhood is like the earlier you start, the better. Because as you wait longer, the kids develop habits and then you’re not, you’re retraining completely. So like, how does it work though?
Like, because what’s going in my head with. The PDA profile is like, how could, do you see the PDA profile in children that young or It’s, no, it’s more than
Taylor Day: just that usually that young, um, right. But I will say, like, I just, I. Had a three-year-old that I diagnosed as autistic and the PDA profile very much fit.
So it does come on in those toddler to preschool years, I think 14 months. I’m often thinking, let’s get the earliest diagnosis. And again, you know, there’s a lot about like. The benefits of early intervention support, and I’ve always been such a fan of that in the work that I do. And you know, listening to the autistic community, I think sometimes we conceptualize it as like [00:33:00] rewiring the brain.
Well, your child’s brain is wired a certain way and some of that is building. Of those differences. However, what I still think early intervention can be incredibly valuable for is helping you as a parent to know and understand your child holistically, how their brain is wired. Be able to support that.
And I think it often prevents a lot of negative feedback from happening too, right? Where it’s like, oh, your kid’s just being a bad kid, and then like you’re trying these experiments of like, oh, I’m supposed to just ignore their behavior. Like, no. That’s, that’s not effective. And that’s also not treating them as the human that they are.
And so we get to skip, uh, through a lot of that, like bad information out there and go again to say, okay, what are my child’s strengths? How can we promote those? If your child loves lining up [00:34:00] toys, you know, you’ll hear some non-affirming approaches that say, oh, you should go and mess it up and teach them how to play differently.
What I teach in early intervention, ’cause I’ll also work with families after they’re like, get that early diagnosis is, okay, what I want you to do, go grab your own set. How can you start lining them up? How can you be face-to-face with them to enter their world because we can leverage this, this love of lining things up as a connection point.
And so, you know, I think it, it allows you to bypass maybe some of these non-affirming approaches. Right,
Frances Shefter: which is, yeah, it’s so true. And like, starting early. I’m just thinking about like, I know, um, autistic burnout is a big thing. Um, you know, for our older kids. And first off, I wanna put out there it is not your fault.
Parents, if your kids get to the point of autistic burnout, it is not your fault. There’s nothing you could have done differently. It’s where we are and let’s move forward. I always, I always wanna say that because I know as a parent, [00:35:00] you know, um, we beat ourselves up all the time. You know, I’m like, ugh.
With all my background and my child is speech delayed. You know? ’cause my, my oldest had speech delays, like, how did that happen and, and stuff. And you know, I even do, but it’s, we’re doing the best we can with what we have. And the fact that you’re out there looking for more to help support your child, um, is so important.
And so, like what I’m thinking is like if we get the children earlier and connect and start that, it’s potentially won’t get to that point of autistic burnout as they get
Taylor Day: older. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, I heard something, I learned this actually literally just recently, and I thought it was so amazing to think about it.
In this way. Autistic burnout, not only is that chronic exhaustion that lasts three months or more, and that’s not specific to being autistic, we get that. You know, you’ll see that in terms of careers, for example. But then we often see too, like a reduced ability to navigate sensory [00:36:00] input, like more sensory sensitive.
Activities that come with autistic burnout, as well as this is where we often see some of that, like regression in skills. Um, and so I think when we think about each of those three pieces, being able to prevent some of those are so impactful. Um, and, you know, like I, I think it, it can be such this supportive approach and some of it is.
There is some of it where your child might have gone through early intervention and early therapeutic support and then something isn’t optimal for them. And I, I, I do see this is why, especially with PDA, because autistic burnout is so common with PDA is this is why a lot of parents are pulling their kids outta school.
But I also, in doing homeschooling or unschooling, I also will say I have families that are like. You know, that doesn’t work for our life. So how do we navigate in [00:37:00] the advocacy of getting school to come on board? And I will say that this is not the easiest feat, but I, I have had some schools that are more willing to reduce the demands and really understand this conceptualization of PDA.
So I hope that’s the trend in the way that we, we start to grow.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. Yeah, that’s one of the things I’m starting to do and one of the things I’m trying to do, um, with the families I work with is when we do get the autism code, I always make them put the PDA profile in because it’s not its own code, but with our PDA kids, you can’t treat them like an autistic child without the PDA.
’cause it’s very different because, you know, everybody’s taught, oh, autism, you know, kids with autism need structure and they need to know da-da-da-da. That doesn’t work with a PDA child. Yeah. You know, it’s gonna have the opposite effect. Exactly. And it’s, it’s definitely, you know, I know it’s been the trend.
Like it’s, it’s just coming out now and more people are becoming more aware of it. [00:38:00] Um, and I’m hoping the schools, I mean, don’t get me started on the schools. There’s such a hot mess. You right. Yeah. As good as, as much better as we are than we were. It’s still not like for our neurodiverse kids, but they, they can’t.
You know, I keep, you know, the schools can only do so much, and that’s why there’s a lot of times I’ll have strategy sessions with potential clients and tell them like, look, yes, I could go and get you a perfect IP, but honestly for your child, this is what I recommend. Yeah. You know, because it’s sometimes the school system is not, is not the right place for your child, unfortunately.
Like, are they, are they legally required to do stuff? Yes. But that doesn’t mean it’s the best place
Taylor Day: for your child. Right, right. Exactly. Mm-Hmm. And just because it’s on paper sometimes, I mean, I know there’s legal to this, but then yeah, it can be something on paper, but is that what they’re actually executing too?
Exactly. Um, and so I think that’s important. Yeah. And I think, you know, understanding if. I guess if parents are interested in learning PDA, I do have, um, and I can share it later with you, a [00:39:00] free like handout that it’s like things that I include in my reports and different resources and then also a little sneak peek, um, at the, probably I.
Um, I don’t have an exact date yet, but early March I’m looking to, uh, release a PDA course and these are the things that I work on with families in therapy. Um, but making it more accessible so that if parents are like, I wanna learn more about PDA, I wanna understand, you know, does my child have this?
What could diagnosis look like? Um, what are the, you know, support strategies. But then also thinking about some of these other pieces with advocacy and all of that. Um, so not only learning, but having it jam-packed with what you do, um, to respond to it as
Frances Shefter: well. Awesome. I am so excited to hear all of this, and I’m, I’m like, okay, I need to sign up for this because even, you know, like for me as an education attorney and a parent, you know, I want to know all of this stuff to help support my families.
Right. [00:40:00] You know, and that’s the thing, and so that’s why I’m very big on educating myself, even if it’s not something that my child might have, whatever it is, because if I don’t understand it fully, then how can I help get the IEP to reflect what it needs?
Taylor Day: Totally. Well, and I’m sure you’re getting so many, I’m getting so many referrals right now.
’cause I think what’s happening with PDA is it’s been in the UK for quite some time. Yeah. It’s just finally making its way to the US and I think for so many parents that have a PDA kid, they’re like, all of a sudden they, they feel so. Seen and heard by it. Yeah. They’re finally like, oh my gosh, something makes sense.
And it’s not people telling me that I’m a bad parent either. Yeah. Because I think that can be a lot of the feedback of like, you just need more discipline. That’s what the issue is. Yeah. And then again, parents try that because they’re like, maybe, maybe someone’s right. You know? And then that backfires and so there, there sometimes can be a lot of hopelessness.
And what I am hearing is parents going. Oh my gosh. I [00:41:00] discovered this and it finally felt like something clicked. It finally felt like something was explaining my child and it Yes. And I get it. Yep. Yeah, I get it. And like I understand my child now and I feel a little less alone in this too.
Frances Shefter: Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s awesome.
I’m so excited. I’m like, and I’m like thinking through my head of like, which clients am I sending this to immediately? You know, because I have a couple of clients and it, it’s important and it’s good, it’s great information and I love it. Um, so I know we’re gonna have your link, um, in the show night notes for the, so I, if you send us the PDA link, I’ll make sure that we have the, um, the handout link as well.
Perfect. Um, as your course, and I know you also have your own podcast, right? Yeah. Yes. Called Evolve. Yeah, evolve and that, yeah. Right. And that’s focused on for autism parents. Right. Mainly.
Taylor Day: Correct. Yeah. I would say, you know, it definitely is designed with autism parents in mind. Um, I think I have something like 94 episodes currently.
Wow. And so I love just [00:42:00] providing free education in more of a long-form content. Um, a place where you can go and get reputable information, um, and be able to really learn in deep dive. I have some incredible guests on it. Um. We’ll have to try to get you on the podcast. I would
Frances Shefter: love to do. Yeah, definitely.
Thank you. Of course. Um, I love this, uh, I’m sorry, I, I know we could talk all day ’cause our brains are so aligned with the Yeah. With, you know, the same way and stuff. And I’m so glad we connected and thank you so much for being on the show. Yeah,
Taylor Day: thank you.
Voiceover: You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEP with your host, Frances Shefter. Remember, you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through ShefterLaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews. Comments and sharing the show with others through YouTube, LinkedIn, apple, Podcasts, Spotify, Google [00:43:00] Podcasts, Stitcher, and more.
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