In this episode of Stress-Free IEPTM, Frances Shefter speaks with Shannon Olsen M. Ed., Special Education Advocate. Over the past 20 years, Shannon has been a steadfast advocate for her students with special needs. She has been an effective member of the IEP team supporting parents and their educational and functional learning goals for their child.
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
VOICEOVER ( 00:00:00): Welcome to Stress-Free IEPTM. You do not need to do it all alone with your host Frances Shefter, Principal of Shefter Law, she streams a show live on Facebook on Tuesdays at noon Eastern, get more details and catch prior episodes at www.ShefterLaw.com. The Stress-Free IEPTM video podcast is also posted on YouTube and LinkedIn and you can listen to episodes through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, Stitcher and more. Now, here’s the host of Stress-Free IEPTM Frances Shefter.
FRANCES ( 00:00:37): Hello, everyone and welcome to our show, Stress-Free IEPTM today. I have a special guest, Shannon Olsen who’s an IEP. She provides IEP support. So she’s also an advocate, but she’s out in California and I’m starting to branch out the show to other areas because it’s so interesting to hear even though it’s federal law, how things are a little bit different in each state. So Shannon, please introduce yourself to the listeners.
SHANNON ( 00:01:04): Hi, everybody. My name is Shannon Olsen. I have been a special education teacher for 22 years and I have been in the field of advocacy for about five years now, and I work with students primarily with developmental disabilities.
FRANCES ( 00:01:22): Right. And I know when we talked, like, when we first met, like the biggest topic that we talked about were the individual transition plans (ITPs). And I know that’s a huge topic here in Maryland as well because it’s often very neglected. So, tell everybody what is an individual transition plan.
SHANNON ( 00:01:40): So the individual transition plan, I believe, came into effect in 2004. And it is looking towards the future for the student and making sure we have a plan in place that is student driven by the student almost. So it is not parent driven, it is not teacher driven, it is actually driven by the student and to help them plan their path. After that, they leave the education system, either that they leave because they got a high school diploma or that they have finished the adult transition program up through age 22.
FRANCES ( 00:02:19): So student driven and that’s always interesting because the parents still have, I know in Maryland, at least as long as they’re still in high school, the parents still have educational decision making rights. And I know there are several parents that want to drive the IEP and the afterlife experience after high school. How do you get it focused on that, It’s, you know, get the team to look at it’s the child’s decision?
SHANNON ( 00:02:40): So when we’re looking at the individual transition plan where we’re looking at kind of three components. And it’s focusing on where they want to go for employment, where they want to, what they want to do for further education. And if necessary, if it applies to the student, independent life skills. So it’s a kind of a process, you know, the special education team, their case manager or whatever you call it in any state. I know there’s different terms. But for the lead special education teacher who oversees that child, they really go through an interview process with the student, they do formal assessments as well as, informal assessments and, you know, surveys to get a sense of what the student could be good at that, they don’t realize that they’re good at, you know. If you’re interviewing them, you want to know their passions, you wanna know what they want to do and help them make a plan for them to move forward. And it may not be mom and dad’s plan. That’s, that’s ok. But, we wanna make sure that the student is involved, especially when they’re in the secondary program, when they’re in the high school setting that they have ownership of their education. And that’s very important.
FRANCES ( 00:03:54): Right. Yeah, I’ve, I’ve done, I know when students go to college or students with the IEP, they move to college, it’s always a huge transition because parents will walk into the disability office and be like, here’s my kid’s IEP. You need to follow it and that’s not how it works.
SHANNON ( 00:04:11): No it doesn’t.
FRANCES ( 00:04:13): First of all, the school doesn’t talk to the parents. It doesn’t matter who’s writing the check, the students, the person they talk to unless they give permission. And second of all IEPs die with, second with high school diplomas. Like they’re just for public schools before high school.
SHANNON ( 00:04:28): Correct. So it’s important if a student is moving on to the community college or a four year college that their accommodations are well drafted and that it supports the students in their, in their academic needs and it’s very specific because those accommodations can follow into the university setting or the community college setting. They may look different. You may not get everything, but they’re gonna do their best to follow those accommodations because that is, you know, and Americans with Disability Acts right.
FRANCES ( 00:05:03): Right. Exactly. It just falls out of a different law but the accommodations are still there. So
SHANNON ( 00:05:07): So we’re not gonna have any goals.
FRANCES ( 00:05:08): Right. Exactly.
SHANNON ( 00:05:11): Nobody’s gonna hold your hand to class.
FRANCES ( 00:05:13): Goal is to pass the class, do your work the same. Right. But what accommodations do you need, which is like the extra time or the breaks or sometimes it’s preferred scheduling I know is what I’ve seen a lot because if you’re on medication, that messes with your sleep patterns or things like that.
SHANNON ( 00:05:31): Visual impairment. You may need large print, you may need a reader, you may need you know, braille books, those are all accommodations that are followed through at the university level.
FRANCES ( 00:05:42): And I know the other difference is that the child or the young adult at this point has to go and ask for the services. There’s no legal obligation for the school to find the children.
SHANNON ( 00:05:56): Yes, that was another thing. Learn to advocate for themselves, which is one of those skills we have to teach the student how to do.
FRANCES ( 00:06:05): Right. Which is great, why the ITPs are student driven because you’re starting them on the process of, you know, these are your goals, these are your long term goals, these are the short term objectives to get there, and what do we need to get you to get to, to the end goal? And so I know like, so the ITP, explain to everybody because some people might not know what the ITP is. What is the individual transition plan? What are the components of it? What should it include?
SHANNON ( 00:06:33): Depending on your state, you can start as early as 14 I’ve heard. I know in the great state of Texas they start at 14, in California we don’t start till 16. But it is a separate component within the IEP that we’re gonna go over certain things. We’re gonna want to know the students’ preferences, their interests, their goals, and then we’re actually going to write goals based on the student’s needs or projection of what they want. So, in California we have “I” statements. So at the end of high school, I will da da, da, da, da, da, da, you know, I will go to community college. I will go to a four year college. I will go to culinary school. I will go learn to be a nail tech, whatever their statement is. And that’s why it’s important. It’s not the parents, not the parents, it’s what the student wants. It’s student driven by their passions and not what we think they need. Once we get what they want to do, then we can look at what type of supplementary services they may need. They may need, if their plan is to go to community college, do we need to help them connect with community college? Do they need to have, to go on a tour? Do they need help with their application? Do you need the help with filling out their FAFSA? All those kind of components are things that we can help them with to get them on the right track. And then beyond that, then we write an actual IEP goal for each section that helps them reach that step, that goal that they want.
FRANCES ( 00:08:17): I love you to say that the IEP goal, because the IEP goal should be just like a regular IEP goal with the S.M.A.R.T. you know, you know, specific, measurable all of those.
SHANNON ( 00:08:28): So parents who are listening, it is a separate goal. It is not tied to another academic goal. It has a separate goal for this.
FRANCES ( 00:08:36): Exactly. And it needs to be specific because there’s so many times I’ve seen, I mean, in Maryland and DC as well. I see that the goal is, we’ll research for your colleges. Yeah. Ok. That’s what every 11th grader is doing that wants to go to a four year college. And I know that something like that comes up often is that, you know, it needs to be specific and the schools tend to look at me like I’m crazy because, and it’s not, I don’t think it’s that the schools don’t want to do it. But I know from when I was a teacher you’re not taught how to do all this stuff on the IEPs.
SHANNON ( 00:9:10): You are correct. We are not taught as educators how to write the best individual education plan. We’re given bits and pieces, the main components. But writing these IEPs is a gift and it takes practice and, it really takes knowing your students and, writing transition goals are kind of hard, I think for a higher level academic student, especially. My demographic is intellectual disability. So my goals are a little bit, you know, they’re, they’re easier for me to craft than it would be a more typical student who is, you know, getting some, just some, a little, you know, few services, little services, I shouldn’t say that. But yeah, we don’t get enough training at all in any state.
FRANCES ( 00:10:07): Yeah. And that’s true. Like I remember in Maryland and when I taught I was down in Florida and, I mean, luckily I taught elementary school originally so I didn’t have to worry about transition goals because the kids were all well under 14. But when I taught high school and middle school, and I was a special ed coordinator. I was definitely, I know I didn’t write them right. Like, if I go back and look at, you know, IEPs that I wrote back then I’d be like, oh, you know, as a lawyer now, like, I’m embarrassed I signed that. You know, but then I didn’t know any better, you know. And, and that’s part of the reason I do this show and I wanted to have you on the show is to educate parents, and teachers because I have a lot of teachers that follow me as well, of what they can do to help their students. and I know you said for that you focus on children with intellectual disabilities. What does that look like, what, what would their goals look like?
SHANNON ( 00:10:57): So, our goals, we do a lot of training with our students. So specifically, like, if I’m gonna give an assessment, a work job inventory that has pictures, I have to first preteach, what all these things mean. Right. And then I have to help them fill it out without giving my impressions of what I think they like the best and sometimes they just look at me like, I don’t know. And I’m like, that’s ok to not know, but for me in my classroom it’s a four year process to get them to start defining what they would like to do in life. So for our continued education, our “I” statements kind of go into the fact that I can attend a community college class and something that I am interested in or I can go to a community led class and something that I’m interested in, because obtaining, realistically obtaining a four year, you know, degree for my student population isn’t, it’s not unheard of, I’m sure, but it’s highly unlikely to be honest. And so we work then on steps that’s gonna make them be more independent if they were to go to a community college class, you know. So are we gonna be learning how to read the campus map? Are we gonna be learning how to read the bus schedule? Are we, you know, different things. Are we gonna learn how to pack our backpack correctly? You know, that we have our tablet and we have our books and our pencils. So, depending on the student and the level that they’re at the goals can range, you know, have a wide range of different skills that are really life skills based, but get them a little bit closer to the goals that they would like to, to work on.
FRANCES ( 00:12:52): So, do you actually do those assessments and help the kids or do you leave it to the school?
SHANNON ( 00:12:57): Oh no, I do the assessments as the educator in California. So they’re not formal assessments, they’re informal assessments that I work with them. The formal assessments are done by our school psychologist. We are limited in the types of assessments that we have for our demographic, especially for formal when it comes to transition skills. But we have picture inventories, we have ones with illustrations. And then a lot of it is interviewing. So I ask a lot, a lot of questions to pull the information out from them. And then if I have students who are in a communication device and you know, I, I have to go another step further. I gotta program everything, teach them where everything is and then start asking those questions. So when I say it’s a four year process, it’s a four year process when the student is a freshman teaching them how to communicate their wants and needs and, and what they want to do when they’re older.
FRANCES ( 00:13:53): Right. And I, I mean, I’m just thinking about it and even our general ed population could probably use this a lot.
SHANNON ( 00:14:00): I’m, I’m not saying that’s not true but it is. so, you know, we have to preteach everything for our students, any student and if we’re not giving them the information, like we watch little job clip videos, you know, for five minutes every day. So they have an introduction to a different job. Oh, that might be interesting. And that doesn’t hurt for a general like kid to do that either as, as, as part of a class that doesn’t hurt at all. There’s a wide world out there outside of programming video games and, and they’re going to mine Bitcoin or whatever they’re, they’re gonna to do. Oh, sorry, it’s not Youtube but a TikTok star.
FRANCES ( 00:14:44): Right. So what do you do if, when you have a student that has an unrealistic goal? Like for example, like I know you just said those but like I had a student one time when I taught high school that said his plans for after high school was to play pro football. Yeah, he didn’t. He didn’t play football.
SHANNON ( 00:15:06): Are we on the football team now is the question?
FRANCES ( 00:15:08): No, he was not even on the football team now. Right. Ok. Realistically the chances of him playing pro football and he was also on special diploma. So, even lower chances because usually I, from what I, the minimum I know is they’re usually drafted from college level, not from high school level. So, what do you like, how would you address that? How do you handle coaching the child?
SHANNON ( 00:15:31): So, when they have a passion that is realistically, probably outside of most people aren’t gonna be pro football players, basketball players or baseball players. Right. Right. Less than 0.2%. I don’t know what the percentage is so they love football. Ok. Can you manage a retail store that sells football equipment? Can you stock shelves with football team jerseys? Can you for my demographic that I’m thinking my demographic, so we’re pulling in their passion into something that is manageable and something that is accessible for them for, for the other students that, you know, I, I don’t know, they can be a master of fantasy football. Football is a hard one for me. I don’t know anything about it.
FRANCES ( 00:16:19): Sorry. And it’s hard for me too because I don’t know much but it’s just, I remember and like I remember it was just one of the kids, the kids used to be like, yeah, you’re ridiculous. You’ll never play it. I’m like shhh, fantasy world is a good place to be like, you know, let, let people have their dreams.,
SHANNON ( 00:16:35): There’s skill sets that you can go, you know, you can, like I said, fantasy football kind of fulfills some of that for them. I mean, I know it’s not a career move but it is something that we do focus on leisure activities. We do talk about how to have hobbies, that, you know, maybe they get to work at a football stadium. Right. That you can be in the concession stand, you can be taking tickets. That’s all in that realm of what the student wants to do that is more likely.
FRANCES ( 00:17:07): Right. Right. And so that, and so that’s what you do, you help them find a way like they might not get to where they want in that, but they can still be involved, which is great. So I know, we talked about how they look, the student driven. What do you do, like personally when parents are trying to overshadow or take over things because, you know, parents never do that.
SHANNON ( 00:17:34): I’m not a helicopter parent. What are you talking about? To be honest, you know, I tell the parent, I’m like, this is, this is what they want and, and we know you’re gonna support them the best you can and, and they already feel the students who have parents that, are very involved, they already feel that pressure and I kind of back them up in the IEP. This is, you know, their hopes and dreams and, you know, if there’s a way to include and counting in that hope and dream, great mom and dad, but I do try to, you know, talk with the parent, especially their freshman year. We, I really sit down and kind of go over what this plan is in detail. This actually, when I explain the ITP really takes up almost half my IEP time allotted their freshman year. There is a lot to go over and to explain to parents and a lot of worried faces. And I explain it again, their sophomore year and their junior year and their senior year, I give them all the resources that I’m able to offer. But, it’s starting the process as soon as possible. With the parent, it gives it a little bit more leeway and a little, you know, it, it makes it, and I put the parents’ preferences in, in the IEP sure, but not in the ITP.
FRANCES ( 00:18:56): Which makes sense. But, but then it’s also, you know, because yes, they’re separate but the IEP goals should also help get them to the ITP goals. They’re separate goals but they still support each other.
SHANNON ( 00:19:13): But I can put the parent preferences in their, in their little section of the IEP and I know I write it in the notes to galore, but it’s an “I” statement. It’s not a mom statement.
FRANCES ( 00:19:27): Right. Exactly. And I know, like, for me, like I switched careers, what, like nine years into teaching, I decided it wasn’t working anymore. I went to law school. So I’m sure like these kids and that, like, I think about it and who the heck knows at 14, 15, 16, even 18 of what they want to be when they grow up, you know, it’s gotta be hard.
SHANNON ( 00:19:49): It is hard. But the key to this is really developing within writing the goals and finding their preferences, we also have an education plan put into place. So there is what courses do I need to take to graduate. So if some students are in special programming, like at my school, we have law enforcement programming, we have ROTC if you want to go into the military. Sorry, Junior ROTC. We have a medical, where you can go and get, you know, you’re able to, to go into the medical field or into nursing. We have child development, we have auto shop. So if they’re in some of these programs to get their certification, by the time they exit high school, then it, you know, they have to take specific classes. If they’re trying to go to a four year college, it’s specific classes. So there is that course outline to help them get to the step of graduation for our students. So that is also part of the ITP.
FRANCES ( 00:20:54): And what happens if, well, because you know, teenagers never change their mind, what happens if like, they start on one path at 14 and then, like, you know, their junior year, I, you know what? I, I, I don’t like this anymore. I wanna start, start something different. Like, how do you switch that and make it work that they can still go the new path that they want?
SHANNON ( 00:21:15): So, an ITP just like the IEP is a living document. You revisit it every year and you can revisit it more than once a year. Right. So at our school, I can only speak for the schools that I have taught at out here in California. If a student changes the pathway, parent has to kind of agree to it because the parent is still driving their education. and then we just switch the course of studies. So for our pathways, if you’re going into automotive, you know, that usually takes up all your elective classes, so you’re still getting a high school diploma, but then you get a certificate that you’ve, you know, finished, you know, the auto shop courses. I don’t know what it’s called, but I don’t know what the certificate is called anyway. It says you can go work, you know, you can go change oil now, basically.
FRANCES ( 00:22:11): Yeah. No, that’s great.
SHANNON ( 00:22:14): But it’s, you know, it, the student will get more electives, basically decide to drop out of those kind of pathways. I don’t know what it looks like in other states. But I know out here in California that, that’s kind of how it would work.
FRANCES ( 00:22:29): That makes sense. Yeah, out here in Maryland there aren’t, like the general high schools don’t have, like, the vocational tracks. There is a special high school that you can apply to, that you go to your regular high school for your core and then you go there for the vocational stuff. But they are general, I think DC is starting to have some, it’s a whole nother topic.
SHANNON ( 00:22:53): I think we’re missing that in public education that we have taken that away and, and that is a missing component and I’m happy, at least with my school site that I teach at now that that component has been brought back slowly but surely. but it needs to be reintroduced across the nation.
FRANCES ( 00:23:10): I agree. And I, and, and I understand, like, looking back at the history, I understand why they started it because it used to be, kids were tracked, you know, college track, vocational track at a young age. And usually it wasn’t based on the child’s ability, it was based on family status. And so, you know, we looked at it and they swung the pendulum but they swung it too far because, right, and because now it’s like.
SHANNON ( 00:23:36): That’s what we do in education, we go one way and then we go to the other.
FRANCES ( 00:23:39): Exactly. Like, you know, because now, like, everybody should have the opportunity to be college bound, which you’re right, everybody should have the opportunity to be college bound. But you have this whole population of children, that are, they don’t want to go to college or they don’t have the, the, the wherewithal to go to college. And so they’re not going to college and then they’re graduating high school and they have nothing, they don’t know, like to go to vocational school to have a tech trade, to know basic, you know, how to open a bank account, how to buy a car, you know, basic life skills that are just totally being neglected. Which, you know, I know with the intellectual disability category for the children going on certificate track here, I don’t know what they call it in California. But yes, they get those life skills to the level that they can. But then our kids that are on regular diploma.
SHANNON ( 00:24:30): All students need it too. Like no joke.
FRANCES ( 00:24:35): I, I always say like, I, like, I get it algebra, geometry, you know, but consumer math, like, come on, basic, consumer math just needs to be, come back to the school systems. I don’t know. That’s a whole nother topic, right? A policy change.
SHANNON ( 00:24:52): We’re gonna change policy right here right now.
FRANCES ( 00:24:55): Hey, you never know. You know. But it’s, I mean, it’s true. It’s just, and it’s frustrating and I know for parents it’s just as frustrating, and the kids because, like, what do I do? But I love that California has those options, the vocational and there, you know, you, you’re in so you work in the schools but you also advocate outside of the school.
SHANNON ( 00:25:15): I do, I advocate across the country. I do not advocate within my community. Because to me that’s a conflict of interest and, I do in my community, I do presentations. I do, I educate parents but I won’t advocate, you know, I won’t be in an IEP or anything like that with them. But if they have questions, I do parent groups and things like that, so we can make sure that they’re still getting the support they need. And especially since my community is heavily migrant. And so, it’s important that they know what their rights are and what the school’s responsibility should be and how to ask effectively for services and to get the things their student needs. And I’m not saying all schools that do this or any school does this but, you know, they, we, they did, students don’t need the bare minimum and, and parents who are new to this country or have been here one generation, it’s they, it’s, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And they don’t know that they should, their student needs more, right? That their student requires more support or maybe even less support than they’re receiving. But, the parents assume that the school is giving them all the correct information and, leading them, their student down the right path. And I’m not saying schools do it on purpose but things happen.
FRANCES ( 00:26:52): I was just gonna say it’s not only the immigrant workers. No, it’s because I see that often, you know, parents call me and they get frustrated because the school is doing something and they know there’s something, you know, eligibility is a big one in assessment. They know something is not wrong but something, you know, their child needs extra support and they’re just fighting the school for it. And I always say, you know, the teacher me gets protective of teachers sometimes, you know.
SHANNON ( 00:27:18): I do, I do, I, I, I am very protective with the teachers.
FRANCES ( 00:27:24): What I also say like, you know, what teachers don’t always know. And there’s also the other thing that happens is that the higher ups, you know, the principal might not like special ed, right? Well, they don’t know or they’re worried about budget.
SHANNON ( 00:27:39): They’re worried about budgets. but administrators are not educated in special education law and they’re not, they’re not educated in what programming should look like as well. And, and I’ve seen this across everywhere you know, and it’s, I’m gonna blame the university system for not training everybody correctly. That’s who I’m gonna blame. But the school districts need to have continuous training for their employees and I don’t see that happening as well. So it’s ok. You got your teaching certificate, you have your credential, you know, everything. Well, laws change, things change and we don’t know. No, no one told me, you know, and it’s an honest answer and that’s the one thing I would never want. teachers who happen to, unfortunately have to go through due process and, you know, and have to talk about that. They don’t know because things weren’t followed up with them. Policy wasn’t changed. The school didn’t, didn’t change policy and educate their employees and, and that’s a disservice to teachers,
FRANCES ( 00:28:46): Right. And it’s, you know, I, I would say all the time that, the principal can make or break the special education department and you can always tell at IEP meetings when the principal comes in as an overbearing and like, kind of sets the stage.
SHANNON ( 00:29:04): Wants to do all the talking.
FRANCES ( 00:29:07): Oh, yeah, I’ve got those and the teachers are zip mouthed because they will never go against their principal, which they can’t because that’s their boss. You know, that’s like somebody in the, you know, in the, in the, like retail, like telling the owner of the store that they’re doing it all wrong. Like you don’t do that whether, whether the employee is right or not, you don’t do that because you lose your job. So it’s always challenging. I had one IEP meeting that I looked dead, you know, it was online but I looked dead in the teacher’s. You know, I looked at her and I said, would you say that under oath? And the face changed? Because they don’t think about that. Like, obviously when they’re to my level and they’re bringing an attorney and bringing me as an attorney, not as an advocate, then litigation is a possibility and the teachers don’t realize they’re the ones that are gonna be on the hot speed seat, not the principal. And, you know, I try to give the teachers the out so that they can do it in a way that’s not completely defying what the principal might have said. You know, like I’ll hang on words and be like, well, wait a minute, didn’t you just say that there was an issue at PE? And so if there’s an issue at PE that severe, should they really be with the gen ed population? And it’s like, well, no, I guess not. You know, so it’s like I’ve just given them the lead. Exactly, because it’s, I mean, the thing is I, you know, yes, I’m an attorney but I’m not adversarial and I’m assuming you’re the same way.
SHANNON ( 00:30:46): No I’m not. I try to pad that teacher to say the right thing.
FRANCES ( 00:30:51): And it’s about the child. It is, you know, getting adversarial just, it doesn’t help anyone, you know, and you have people dig into their positions and they, you know, fight so often. And that’s why I always say people, people ask me like, when do you hire an attorney? When do you hire an advocate? I’m like the minute you find out your child has special needs because if you wait, then what happens is, you know, you’re, you then get to the fighting point and the Principal, you know, the schools here and you’re here and now it’s just a fight. Whereas if you start earlier, we can help guide it. So you don’t get to that point.
SHANNON ( 00:31:26): Yeah. So I’ve, I’ve seen Principals dig in and I’m like, we, we just, we came to talk about their freshman schedule. Like the, like, why are you guys ready to argue? And I’m like, we just wanted to know what classes they were gonna take. Like, I’m like we said, it could just be a meeting with the counselor and you’re like, no, it needs to be an IEP and I’m like, ok, you know.
FRANCES ( 00:31:53): I love how they do that. I don’t know in California, but I know here in Maryland. and no, not so much DC, but in Maryland, when an attorney comes, their attorney usually has to come and they also wind up, at least in Montgomery County, bringing people from central office and the people from central office usually know the compliance issues and the law and what can and can’t be done and it gets frustrating because, like, why couldn’t you guys be at the last meeting that we brought up placement as an issue? Like, you know, like they just add all these extra meetings. and that’s the other reason why I tell families to bring in an attorney sometimes instead of an advocate because if there’s really gonna be issues, the attorney brings the central office in and then you have more because I know at least here in Maryland that the schools and in DC, the schools don’t know what else is outside of their school. And what other options are out there.
SHANNON ( 00:32:56): Right. I agree. So for me as an advocate, when I have my advocate hat on, I, you know, I prep the IEP team, these are our concerns. So they are aware of what we’re going to bring up and, and hopefully have some solutions before we get to that point. And a lot of times it’s, you know, we always ask for the IEP draft early. And for parents out there who are listening and it’s not a requirement by law that you give us that draft early, but it sure is a nice thing to do and speeds up the meeting.
FRANCES ( 00:33:36): Well actually, by law, federal law says that reports and any documents should be given reasonable time in advance. So technically, legally, it is, but what’s reasonable time?
SHANNON ( 00:33:47): Yeah. What’s a reasonable time at the meeting? Right. So, in California it’s not a given that you will get your IEP draft before the meeting. As a teacher, I try to give at least a week in advance if I can’t, if I can get, it’s always my outside service providers. It’s always OTPT.
FRANCES ( 00:34:9): Same here.
SHANNON ( 00:34:11): Who cannot get what I need done and hold me up from giving out the draft earlier.
FRANCES ( 00:34:15): What I’ve had some schools do in those situations is they’ve actually just sent us goals and objectives. So not even the draft IEP but just like here’s the present levels, goals and objectives so that you don’t have to worry about the people that don’t have it. So that at least you know where you are.
SHANNON ( 00:34:33): Yeah, I put a little note, I’m like speech didn’t get it into me on time. I’m sorry. Right. But here is, yeah, here is, here is what we are looking for. And so I always have a progress report on how they did on their goals, their present levels and of course their goals and objectives of what I would like projecting what, what next year should look like. Those are the documents that I send with to, to my parents as a teacher. That’s what I’ve been directed that I’m allowed to do.
FRANCES ( 00:35:06): See again, what you’re allowed to.
SHANNON ( 00:35:06): So do what I’m allowed to do, right? So mostly when I see drafts, we never see the service page, we never see what the actual offer of faith will be. Because that would, you know, be predetermination and we’re not doing that, we’re gonna talk through the meeting and then have that discussion. So when I get drafts from my clients, those I, I’m looking for the present levels and I’m looking for how they did and to talk about new goals. And so that’s the key, at least for parents who are listening to try to get those documents, those, those components. So, you know what the path is and, and what they’re doing.
FRANCES ( 00:35:50): The services, it’s so frustrating in placement because like I get it, you don’t want to predetermine. So, ok, we know the child is autistic. We know that’s what the, you know, their ASD is their coding. We know that. So why aren’t you bringing somebody from central office that knows all of the curriculums of ASD? That’s not predetermining, that’s bringing somebody with knowledge of what other avenues are out there. It just gets frustrating that it has to go to the, you know, oh, well, they’re not here yet because we weren’t anticipating it going that way, especially in eligibility. And it’s frustrating to me and that’s why like a lot of times I’ll reach out to legal and be like, hey, we’re requesting that these people be there, you know, because it just, it makes sense because if not, you’re delaying the process. And then I don’t know about you guys, but, for us, a lot of times I advise my clients to always go look at different programs. And sometimes, you know, the schools will be like, oh, we can’t set that up. I’m like this, their home school doesn’t have to set it up in boundary. The parents just can call and say, hey, look, I wanna come see.
SHANNON ( 00:36:56): I would like a tour.
FRANCES ( 00:36:58): Right. Exactly, and that helps a lot. Like, because once the parents see it because if not, you’re just, you know, you’re going in blind right. Exactly. Like they’re, they’re going and saying, oh, well, this is what the classroom looks like and this is what they’re doing but you actually walk into that classroom and not exactly where they.
SHANNON ( 00:37:18): Yeah. So, I know parents, request that they would like to go in and see other, programming. But then there’s, you know, what is it? Not HIPPA? No, it’s the other one. Yeah. Is it FERPA?
FRANCES ( 00:37:36): I think so.
SHANNON ( 00:37:38): FERPA. Yeah. So, you know, you go in before school starts and you meet the teacher and you see the classroom so you’re not, you know, violating a student’s rights. And so, but even getting that part, parents don’t understand why I can’t sit in there for three hours and watch the teacher teach. Right. So, but those are all things that they can do and, and they should do. I mean, if you were gonna go look at a private school, you would go tour the schools. Right. Exactly. You would go see what’s going on, the facilities and, you know, now that parents do have more leeway and they can choose their school sites with school of choice, then, you know, maybe you should go do that. And so, I know that unfortunately, in California though, if you’re on an IEP and you request a school of choice, and your child did qualify for transportation, if it was a parent choice, transportation wouldn’t be provided.
FRANCES ( 00:38:36): Interesting.
SHANNON ( 00:38:37): If it’s a school of choice. Now, if we’re saying the student needs to go there as an, as a, as an IEP team, then yes, transportation would be provided or if that which makes sense. Yeah, if it was a special, if it was a special programming for kids with emotional disturbance, it’s only at one school site, then yes, the school district would provide transportation. But if it’s a school of choice, that’s the parents’ choice and that means they have to provide transportation.
FRANCES ( 00:39:03): Which makes sense because for the general education population, it’s the same way. If they were offering transportation to the General Ed in some form, then it would be, would look different. But that totally makes sense. So I’m trying to think of what else. But then I’m also looking at the clock and going, wow, like I could talk to you all day, I’m sure we could talk forever on this topic.
SHANNON ( 00:39:25): Back to the transition.
FRANCES ( 00:39:27): Back to the transition. So, so I want to go move over to like your advocacy side. So people that might need to advocate, do you only advocate for the transition or is that just your specialty? You still do everything?
SHANNON ( 00:39:38): My specialty is high school students. I do advocate for students in the elementary and middle school, but my specialty is high school age. So yes, the transition plan would be and yeah, my specialty, people with intellectual disabilities.
FRANCES ( 00:39:55): And how do people get in touch with you? Like, so if parents say, oh wow, this is great. I want her to help me with my child. How do, how should parents get in touch with you?
SHANNON ( 00:40:03): I have a website, it’s iepsupport.org. And so all my contact information is there. And that’s the easiest way to get hold of me. If you would like to send an email, it’d be Shannon @ iepsupport.org.
FRANCES ( 00:40:19): Great. And those links will have all those links in the show notes once this gets posted everywhere. So thank you so much, Shannon. This has been so awesome. I love talking to other advocates and, and hearing about other states. Thank you so much for being on the show.
SHANNON ( 00:40:34): Thank you.
VOICEOVER ( 00:40:35): You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEPTM. With your host Frances Shefter. Remember you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through ShefterLaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments and sharing the show with others through YouTube, LinkedIn, Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher and more.
Stress Free IEP™ with Frances Shefter and Shannon Olsen
In this episode of Stress-Free IEPTM, Frances Shefter speaks with Shannon Olsen M. Ed., Special Education Advocate. Over the past 20 years, Shannon has been a steadfast advocate for her students with special needs. She has been an effective member of the IEP team supporting parents and their educational and functional learning goals for their child.
Stress-Free IEPTM:
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
Watch more episodes of Stress-FreeTM on YouTube.
Connect and learn more from your host, Frances Shefter:
Read the full transcript:
VOICEOVER ( 00:00:00): Welcome to Stress-Free IEPTM. You do not need to do it all alone with your host Frances Shefter, Principal of Shefter Law, she streams a show live on Facebook on Tuesdays at noon Eastern, get more details and catch prior episodes at www.ShefterLaw.com. The Stress-Free IEPTM video podcast is also posted on YouTube and LinkedIn and you can listen to episodes through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, Stitcher and more. Now, here’s the host of Stress-Free IEPTM Frances Shefter.
FRANCES ( 00:00:37): Hello, everyone and welcome to our show, Stress-Free IEPTM today. I have a special guest, Shannon Olsen who’s an IEP. She provides IEP support. So she’s also an advocate, but she’s out in California and I’m starting to branch out the show to other areas because it’s so interesting to hear even though it’s federal law, how things are a little bit different in each state. So Shannon, please introduce yourself to the listeners.
SHANNON ( 00:01:04): Hi, everybody. My name is Shannon Olsen. I have been a special education teacher for 22 years and I have been in the field of advocacy for about five years now, and I work with students primarily with developmental disabilities.
FRANCES ( 00:01:22): Right. And I know when we talked, like, when we first met, like the biggest topic that we talked about were the individual transition plans (ITPs). And I know that’s a huge topic here in Maryland as well because it’s often very neglected. So, tell everybody what is an individual transition plan.
SHANNON ( 00:01:40): So the individual transition plan, I believe, came into effect in 2004. And it is looking towards the future for the student and making sure we have a plan in place that is student driven by the student almost. So it is not parent driven, it is not teacher driven, it is actually driven by the student and to help them plan their path. After that, they leave the education system, either that they leave because they got a high school diploma or that they have finished the adult transition program up through age 22.
FRANCES ( 00:02:19): So student driven and that’s always interesting because the parents still have, I know in Maryland, at least as long as they’re still in high school, the parents still have educational decision making rights. And I know there are several parents that want to drive the IEP and the afterlife experience after high school. How do you get it focused on that, It’s, you know, get the team to look at it’s the child’s decision?
SHANNON ( 00:02:40): So when we’re looking at the individual transition plan where we’re looking at kind of three components. And it’s focusing on where they want to go for employment, where they want to, what they want to do for further education. And if necessary, if it applies to the student, independent life skills. So it’s a kind of a process, you know, the special education team, their case manager or whatever you call it in any state. I know there’s different terms. But for the lead special education teacher who oversees that child, they really go through an interview process with the student, they do formal assessments as well as, informal assessments and, you know, surveys to get a sense of what the student could be good at that, they don’t realize that they’re good at, you know. If you’re interviewing them, you want to know their passions, you wanna know what they want to do and help them make a plan for them to move forward. And it may not be mom and dad’s plan. That’s, that’s ok. But, we wanna make sure that the student is involved, especially when they’re in the secondary program, when they’re in the high school setting that they have ownership of their education. And that’s very important.
FRANCES ( 00:03:54): Right. Yeah, I’ve, I’ve done, I know when students go to college or students with the IEP, they move to college, it’s always a huge transition because parents will walk into the disability office and be like, here’s my kid’s IEP. You need to follow it and that’s not how it works.
SHANNON ( 00:04:11): No it doesn’t.
FRANCES ( 00:04:13): First of all, the school doesn’t talk to the parents. It doesn’t matter who’s writing the check, the students, the person they talk to unless they give permission. And second of all IEPs die with, second with high school diplomas. Like they’re just for public schools before high school.
SHANNON ( 00:04:28): Correct. So it’s important if a student is moving on to the community college or a four year college that their accommodations are well drafted and that it supports the students in their, in their academic needs and it’s very specific because those accommodations can follow into the university setting or the community college setting. They may look different. You may not get everything, but they’re gonna do their best to follow those accommodations because that is, you know, and Americans with Disability Acts right.
FRANCES ( 00:05:03): Right. Exactly. It just falls out of a different law but the accommodations are still there. So
SHANNON ( 00:05:07): So we’re not gonna have any goals.
FRANCES ( 00:05:08): Right. Exactly.
SHANNON ( 00:05:11): Nobody’s gonna hold your hand to class.
FRANCES ( 00:05:13): Goal is to pass the class, do your work the same. Right. But what accommodations do you need, which is like the extra time or the breaks or sometimes it’s preferred scheduling I know is what I’ve seen a lot because if you’re on medication, that messes with your sleep patterns or things like that.
SHANNON ( 00:05:31): Visual impairment. You may need large print, you may need a reader, you may need you know, braille books, those are all accommodations that are followed through at the university level.
FRANCES ( 00:05:42): And I know the other difference is that the child or the young adult at this point has to go and ask for the services. There’s no legal obligation for the school to find the children.
SHANNON ( 00:05:56): Yes, that was another thing. Learn to advocate for themselves, which is one of those skills we have to teach the student how to do.
FRANCES ( 00:06:05): Right. Which is great, why the ITPs are student driven because you’re starting them on the process of, you know, these are your goals, these are your long term goals, these are the short term objectives to get there, and what do we need to get you to get to, to the end goal? And so I know like, so the ITP, explain to everybody because some people might not know what the ITP is. What is the individual transition plan? What are the components of it? What should it include?
SHANNON ( 00:06:33): Depending on your state, you can start as early as 14 I’ve heard. I know in the great state of Texas they start at 14, in California we don’t start till 16. But it is a separate component within the IEP that we’re gonna go over certain things. We’re gonna want to know the students’ preferences, their interests, their goals, and then we’re actually going to write goals based on the student’s needs or projection of what they want. So, in California we have “I” statements. So at the end of high school, I will da da, da, da, da, da, da, you know, I will go to community college. I will go to a four year college. I will go to culinary school. I will go learn to be a nail tech, whatever their statement is. And that’s why it’s important. It’s not the parents, not the parents, it’s what the student wants. It’s student driven by their passions and not what we think they need. Once we get what they want to do, then we can look at what type of supplementary services they may need. They may need, if their plan is to go to community college, do we need to help them connect with community college? Do they need to have, to go on a tour? Do they need help with their application? Do you need the help with filling out their FAFSA? All those kind of components are things that we can help them with to get them on the right track. And then beyond that, then we write an actual IEP goal for each section that helps them reach that step, that goal that they want.
FRANCES ( 00:08:17): I love you to say that the IEP goal, because the IEP goal should be just like a regular IEP goal with the S.M.A.R.T. you know, you know, specific, measurable all of those.
SHANNON ( 00:08:28): So parents who are listening, it is a separate goal. It is not tied to another academic goal. It has a separate goal for this.
FRANCES ( 00:08:36): Exactly. And it needs to be specific because there’s so many times I’ve seen, I mean, in Maryland and DC as well. I see that the goal is, we’ll research for your colleges. Yeah. Ok. That’s what every 11th grader is doing that wants to go to a four year college. And I know that something like that comes up often is that, you know, it needs to be specific and the schools tend to look at me like I’m crazy because, and it’s not, I don’t think it’s that the schools don’t want to do it. But I know from when I was a teacher you’re not taught how to do all this stuff on the IEPs.
SHANNON ( 00:9:10): You are correct. We are not taught as educators how to write the best individual education plan. We’re given bits and pieces, the main components. But writing these IEPs is a gift and it takes practice and, it really takes knowing your students and, writing transition goals are kind of hard, I think for a higher level academic student, especially. My demographic is intellectual disability. So my goals are a little bit, you know, they’re, they’re easier for me to craft than it would be a more typical student who is, you know, getting some, just some, a little, you know, few services, little services, I shouldn’t say that. But yeah, we don’t get enough training at all in any state.
FRANCES ( 00:10:07): Yeah. And that’s true. Like I remember in Maryland and when I taught I was down in Florida and, I mean, luckily I taught elementary school originally so I didn’t have to worry about transition goals because the kids were all well under 14. But when I taught high school and middle school, and I was a special ed coordinator. I was definitely, I know I didn’t write them right. Like, if I go back and look at, you know, IEPs that I wrote back then I’d be like, oh, you know, as a lawyer now, like, I’m embarrassed I signed that. You know, but then I didn’t know any better, you know. And, and that’s part of the reason I do this show and I wanted to have you on the show is to educate parents, and teachers because I have a lot of teachers that follow me as well, of what they can do to help their students. and I know you said for that you focus on children with intellectual disabilities. What does that look like, what, what would their goals look like?
SHANNON ( 00:10:57): So, our goals, we do a lot of training with our students. So specifically, like, if I’m gonna give an assessment, a work job inventory that has pictures, I have to first preteach, what all these things mean. Right. And then I have to help them fill it out without giving my impressions of what I think they like the best and sometimes they just look at me like, I don’t know. And I’m like, that’s ok to not know, but for me in my classroom it’s a four year process to get them to start defining what they would like to do in life. So for our continued education, our “I” statements kind of go into the fact that I can attend a community college class and something that I am interested in or I can go to a community led class and something that I’m interested in, because obtaining, realistically obtaining a four year, you know, degree for my student population isn’t, it’s not unheard of, I’m sure, but it’s highly unlikely to be honest. And so we work then on steps that’s gonna make them be more independent if they were to go to a community college class, you know. So are we gonna be learning how to read the campus map? Are we gonna be learning how to read the bus schedule? Are we, you know, different things. Are we gonna learn how to pack our backpack correctly? You know, that we have our tablet and we have our books and our pencils. So, depending on the student and the level that they’re at the goals can range, you know, have a wide range of different skills that are really life skills based, but get them a little bit closer to the goals that they would like to, to work on.
FRANCES ( 00:12:52): So, do you actually do those assessments and help the kids or do you leave it to the school?
SHANNON ( 00:12:57): Oh no, I do the assessments as the educator in California. So they’re not formal assessments, they’re informal assessments that I work with them. The formal assessments are done by our school psychologist. We are limited in the types of assessments that we have for our demographic, especially for formal when it comes to transition skills. But we have picture inventories, we have ones with illustrations. And then a lot of it is interviewing. So I ask a lot, a lot of questions to pull the information out from them. And then if I have students who are in a communication device and you know, I, I have to go another step further. I gotta program everything, teach them where everything is and then start asking those questions. So when I say it’s a four year process, it’s a four year process when the student is a freshman teaching them how to communicate their wants and needs and, and what they want to do when they’re older.
FRANCES ( 00:13:53): Right. And I, I mean, I’m just thinking about it and even our general ed population could probably use this a lot.
SHANNON ( 00:14:00): I’m, I’m not saying that’s not true but it is. so, you know, we have to preteach everything for our students, any student and if we’re not giving them the information, like we watch little job clip videos, you know, for five minutes every day. So they have an introduction to a different job. Oh, that might be interesting. And that doesn’t hurt for a general like kid to do that either as, as, as part of a class that doesn’t hurt at all. There’s a wide world out there outside of programming video games and, and they’re going to mine Bitcoin or whatever they’re, they’re gonna to do. Oh, sorry, it’s not Youtube but a TikTok star.
FRANCES ( 00:14:44): Right. So what do you do if, when you have a student that has an unrealistic goal? Like for example, like I know you just said those but like I had a student one time when I taught high school that said his plans for after high school was to play pro football. Yeah, he didn’t. He didn’t play football.
SHANNON ( 00:15:06): Are we on the football team now is the question?
FRANCES ( 00:15:08): No, he was not even on the football team now. Right. Ok. Realistically the chances of him playing pro football and he was also on special diploma. So, even lower chances because usually I, from what I, the minimum I know is they’re usually drafted from college level, not from high school level. So, what do you like, how would you address that? How do you handle coaching the child?
SHANNON ( 00:15:31): So, when they have a passion that is realistically, probably outside of most people aren’t gonna be pro football players, basketball players or baseball players. Right. Right. Less than 0.2%. I don’t know what the percentage is so they love football. Ok. Can you manage a retail store that sells football equipment? Can you stock shelves with football team jerseys? Can you for my demographic that I’m thinking my demographic, so we’re pulling in their passion into something that is manageable and something that is accessible for them for, for the other students that, you know, I, I don’t know, they can be a master of fantasy football. Football is a hard one for me. I don’t know anything about it.
FRANCES ( 00:16:19): Sorry. And it’s hard for me too because I don’t know much but it’s just, I remember and like I remember it was just one of the kids, the kids used to be like, yeah, you’re ridiculous. You’ll never play it. I’m like shhh, fantasy world is a good place to be like, you know, let, let people have their dreams.,
SHANNON ( 00:16:35): There’s skill sets that you can go, you know, you can, like I said, fantasy football kind of fulfills some of that for them. I mean, I know it’s not a career move but it is something that we do focus on leisure activities. We do talk about how to have hobbies, that, you know, maybe they get to work at a football stadium. Right. That you can be in the concession stand, you can be taking tickets. That’s all in that realm of what the student wants to do that is more likely.
FRANCES ( 00:17:07): Right. Right. And so that, and so that’s what you do, you help them find a way like they might not get to where they want in that, but they can still be involved, which is great. So I know, we talked about how they look, the student driven. What do you do, like personally when parents are trying to overshadow or take over things because, you know, parents never do that.
SHANNON ( 00:17:34): I’m not a helicopter parent. What are you talking about? To be honest, you know, I tell the parent, I’m like, this is, this is what they want and, and we know you’re gonna support them the best you can and, and they already feel the students who have parents that, are very involved, they already feel that pressure and I kind of back them up in the IEP. This is, you know, their hopes and dreams and, you know, if there’s a way to include and counting in that hope and dream, great mom and dad, but I do try to, you know, talk with the parent, especially their freshman year. We, I really sit down and kind of go over what this plan is in detail. This actually, when I explain the ITP really takes up almost half my IEP time allotted their freshman year. There is a lot to go over and to explain to parents and a lot of worried faces. And I explain it again, their sophomore year and their junior year and their senior year, I give them all the resources that I’m able to offer. But, it’s starting the process as soon as possible. With the parent, it gives it a little bit more leeway and a little, you know, it, it makes it, and I put the parents’ preferences in, in the IEP sure, but not in the ITP.
FRANCES ( 00:18:56): Which makes sense. But, but then it’s also, you know, because yes, they’re separate but the IEP goals should also help get them to the ITP goals. They’re separate goals but they still support each other.
SHANNON ( 00:19:13): But I can put the parent preferences in their, in their little section of the IEP and I know I write it in the notes to galore, but it’s an “I” statement. It’s not a mom statement.
FRANCES ( 00:19:27): Right. Exactly. And I know, like, for me, like I switched careers, what, like nine years into teaching, I decided it wasn’t working anymore. I went to law school. So I’m sure like these kids and that, like, I think about it and who the heck knows at 14, 15, 16, even 18 of what they want to be when they grow up, you know, it’s gotta be hard.
SHANNON ( 00:19:49): It is hard. But the key to this is really developing within writing the goals and finding their preferences, we also have an education plan put into place. So there is what courses do I need to take to graduate. So if some students are in special programming, like at my school, we have law enforcement programming, we have ROTC if you want to go into the military. Sorry, Junior ROTC. We have a medical, where you can go and get, you know, you’re able to, to go into the medical field or into nursing. We have child development, we have auto shop. So if they’re in some of these programs to get their certification, by the time they exit high school, then it, you know, they have to take specific classes. If they’re trying to go to a four year college, it’s specific classes. So there is that course outline to help them get to the step of graduation for our students. So that is also part of the ITP.
FRANCES ( 00:20:54): And what happens if, well, because you know, teenagers never change their mind, what happens if like, they start on one path at 14 and then, like, you know, their junior year, I, you know what? I, I, I don’t like this anymore. I wanna start, start something different. Like, how do you switch that and make it work that they can still go the new path that they want?
SHANNON ( 00:21:15): So, an ITP just like the IEP is a living document. You revisit it every year and you can revisit it more than once a year. Right. So at our school, I can only speak for the schools that I have taught at out here in California. If a student changes the pathway, parent has to kind of agree to it because the parent is still driving their education. and then we just switch the course of studies. So for our pathways, if you’re going into automotive, you know, that usually takes up all your elective classes, so you’re still getting a high school diploma, but then you get a certificate that you’ve, you know, finished, you know, the auto shop courses. I don’t know what it’s called, but I don’t know what the certificate is called anyway. It says you can go work, you know, you can go change oil now, basically.
FRANCES ( 00:22:11): Yeah. No, that’s great.
SHANNON ( 00:22:14): But it’s, you know, it, the student will get more electives, basically decide to drop out of those kind of pathways. I don’t know what it looks like in other states. But I know out here in California that, that’s kind of how it would work.
FRANCES ( 00:22:29): That makes sense. Yeah, out here in Maryland there aren’t, like the general high schools don’t have, like, the vocational tracks. There is a special high school that you can apply to, that you go to your regular high school for your core and then you go there for the vocational stuff. But they are general, I think DC is starting to have some, it’s a whole nother topic.
SHANNON ( 00:22:53): I think we’re missing that in public education that we have taken that away and, and that is a missing component and I’m happy, at least with my school site that I teach at now that that component has been brought back slowly but surely. but it needs to be reintroduced across the nation.
FRANCES ( 00:23:10): I agree. And I, and, and I understand, like, looking back at the history, I understand why they started it because it used to be, kids were tracked, you know, college track, vocational track at a young age. And usually it wasn’t based on the child’s ability, it was based on family status. And so, you know, we looked at it and they swung the pendulum but they swung it too far because, right, and because now it’s like.
SHANNON ( 00:23:36): That’s what we do in education, we go one way and then we go to the other.
FRANCES ( 00:23:39): Exactly. Like, you know, because now, like, everybody should have the opportunity to be college bound, which you’re right, everybody should have the opportunity to be college bound. But you have this whole population of children, that are, they don’t want to go to college or they don’t have the, the, the wherewithal to go to college. And so they’re not going to college and then they’re graduating high school and they have nothing, they don’t know, like to go to vocational school to have a tech trade, to know basic, you know, how to open a bank account, how to buy a car, you know, basic life skills that are just totally being neglected. Which, you know, I know with the intellectual disability category for the children going on certificate track here, I don’t know what they call it in California. But yes, they get those life skills to the level that they can. But then our kids that are on regular diploma.
SHANNON ( 00:24:30): All students need it too. Like no joke.
FRANCES ( 00:24:35): I, I always say like, I, like, I get it algebra, geometry, you know, but consumer math, like, come on, basic, consumer math just needs to be, come back to the school systems. I don’t know. That’s a whole nother topic, right? A policy change.
SHANNON ( 00:24:52): We’re gonna change policy right here right now.
FRANCES ( 00:24:55): Hey, you never know. You know. But it’s, I mean, it’s true. It’s just, and it’s frustrating and I know for parents it’s just as frustrating, and the kids because, like, what do I do? But I love that California has those options, the vocational and there, you know, you, you’re in so you work in the schools but you also advocate outside of the school.
SHANNON ( 00:25:15): I do, I advocate across the country. I do not advocate within my community. Because to me that’s a conflict of interest and, I do in my community, I do presentations. I do, I educate parents but I won’t advocate, you know, I won’t be in an IEP or anything like that with them. But if they have questions, I do parent groups and things like that, so we can make sure that they’re still getting the support they need. And especially since my community is heavily migrant. And so, it’s important that they know what their rights are and what the school’s responsibility should be and how to ask effectively for services and to get the things their student needs. And I’m not saying all schools that do this or any school does this but, you know, they, we, they did, students don’t need the bare minimum and, and parents who are new to this country or have been here one generation, it’s they, it’s, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And they don’t know that they should, their student needs more, right? That their student requires more support or maybe even less support than they’re receiving. But, the parents assume that the school is giving them all the correct information and, leading them, their student down the right path. And I’m not saying schools do it on purpose but things happen.
FRANCES ( 00:26:52): I was just gonna say it’s not only the immigrant workers. No, it’s because I see that often, you know, parents call me and they get frustrated because the school is doing something and they know there’s something, you know, eligibility is a big one in assessment. They know something is not wrong but something, you know, their child needs extra support and they’re just fighting the school for it. And I always say, you know, the teacher me gets protective of teachers sometimes, you know.
SHANNON ( 00:27:18): I do, I do, I, I, I am very protective with the teachers.
FRANCES ( 00:27:24): What I also say like, you know, what teachers don’t always know. And there’s also the other thing that happens is that the higher ups, you know, the principal might not like special ed, right? Well, they don’t know or they’re worried about budget.
SHANNON ( 00:27:39): They’re worried about budgets. but administrators are not educated in special education law and they’re not, they’re not educated in what programming should look like as well. And, and I’ve seen this across everywhere you know, and it’s, I’m gonna blame the university system for not training everybody correctly. That’s who I’m gonna blame. But the school districts need to have continuous training for their employees and I don’t see that happening as well. So it’s ok. You got your teaching certificate, you have your credential, you know, everything. Well, laws change, things change and we don’t know. No, no one told me, you know, and it’s an honest answer and that’s the one thing I would never want. teachers who happen to, unfortunately have to go through due process and, you know, and have to talk about that. They don’t know because things weren’t followed up with them. Policy wasn’t changed. The school didn’t, didn’t change policy and educate their employees and, and that’s a disservice to teachers,
FRANCES ( 00:28:46): Right. And it’s, you know, I, I would say all the time that, the principal can make or break the special education department and you can always tell at IEP meetings when the principal comes in as an overbearing and like, kind of sets the stage.
SHANNON ( 00:29:04): Wants to do all the talking.
FRANCES ( 00:29:07): Oh, yeah, I’ve got those and the teachers are zip mouthed because they will never go against their principal, which they can’t because that’s their boss. You know, that’s like somebody in the, you know, in the, in the, like retail, like telling the owner of the store that they’re doing it all wrong. Like you don’t do that whether, whether the employee is right or not, you don’t do that because you lose your job. So it’s always challenging. I had one IEP meeting that I looked dead, you know, it was online but I looked dead in the teacher’s. You know, I looked at her and I said, would you say that under oath? And the face changed? Because they don’t think about that. Like, obviously when they’re to my level and they’re bringing an attorney and bringing me as an attorney, not as an advocate, then litigation is a possibility and the teachers don’t realize they’re the ones that are gonna be on the hot speed seat, not the principal. And, you know, I try to give the teachers the out so that they can do it in a way that’s not completely defying what the principal might have said. You know, like I’ll hang on words and be like, well, wait a minute, didn’t you just say that there was an issue at PE? And so if there’s an issue at PE that severe, should they really be with the gen ed population? And it’s like, well, no, I guess not. You know, so it’s like I’ve just given them the lead. Exactly, because it’s, I mean, the thing is I, you know, yes, I’m an attorney but I’m not adversarial and I’m assuming you’re the same way.
SHANNON ( 00:30:46): No I’m not. I try to pad that teacher to say the right thing.
FRANCES ( 00:30:51): And it’s about the child. It is, you know, getting adversarial just, it doesn’t help anyone, you know, and you have people dig into their positions and they, you know, fight so often. And that’s why I always say people, people ask me like, when do you hire an attorney? When do you hire an advocate? I’m like the minute you find out your child has special needs because if you wait, then what happens is, you know, you’re, you then get to the fighting point and the Principal, you know, the schools here and you’re here and now it’s just a fight. Whereas if you start earlier, we can help guide it. So you don’t get to that point.
SHANNON ( 00:31:26): Yeah. So I’ve, I’ve seen Principals dig in and I’m like, we, we just, we came to talk about their freshman schedule. Like the, like, why are you guys ready to argue? And I’m like, we just wanted to know what classes they were gonna take. Like, I’m like we said, it could just be a meeting with the counselor and you’re like, no, it needs to be an IEP and I’m like, ok, you know.
FRANCES ( 00:31:53): I love how they do that. I don’t know in California, but I know here in Maryland. and no, not so much DC, but in Maryland, when an attorney comes, their attorney usually has to come and they also wind up, at least in Montgomery County, bringing people from central office and the people from central office usually know the compliance issues and the law and what can and can’t be done and it gets frustrating because, like, why couldn’t you guys be at the last meeting that we brought up placement as an issue? Like, you know, like they just add all these extra meetings. and that’s the other reason why I tell families to bring in an attorney sometimes instead of an advocate because if there’s really gonna be issues, the attorney brings the central office in and then you have more because I know at least here in Maryland that the schools and in DC, the schools don’t know what else is outside of their school. And what other options are out there.
SHANNON ( 00:32:56): Right. I agree. So for me as an advocate, when I have my advocate hat on, I, you know, I prep the IEP team, these are our concerns. So they are aware of what we’re going to bring up and, and hopefully have some solutions before we get to that point. And a lot of times it’s, you know, we always ask for the IEP draft early. And for parents out there who are listening and it’s not a requirement by law that you give us that draft early, but it sure is a nice thing to do and speeds up the meeting.
FRANCES ( 00:33:36): Well actually, by law, federal law says that reports and any documents should be given reasonable time in advance. So technically, legally, it is, but what’s reasonable time?
SHANNON ( 00:33:47): Yeah. What’s a reasonable time at the meeting? Right. So, in California it’s not a given that you will get your IEP draft before the meeting. As a teacher, I try to give at least a week in advance if I can’t, if I can get, it’s always my outside service providers. It’s always OTPT.
FRANCES ( 00:34:9): Same here.
SHANNON ( 00:34:11): Who cannot get what I need done and hold me up from giving out the draft earlier.
FRANCES ( 00:34:15): What I’ve had some schools do in those situations is they’ve actually just sent us goals and objectives. So not even the draft IEP but just like here’s the present levels, goals and objectives so that you don’t have to worry about the people that don’t have it. So that at least you know where you are.
SHANNON ( 00:34:33): Yeah, I put a little note, I’m like speech didn’t get it into me on time. I’m sorry. Right. But here is, yeah, here is, here is what we are looking for. And so I always have a progress report on how they did on their goals, their present levels and of course their goals and objectives of what I would like projecting what, what next year should look like. Those are the documents that I send with to, to my parents as a teacher. That’s what I’ve been directed that I’m allowed to do.
FRANCES ( 00:35:06): See again, what you’re allowed to.
SHANNON ( 00:35:06): So do what I’m allowed to do, right? So mostly when I see drafts, we never see the service page, we never see what the actual offer of faith will be. Because that would, you know, be predetermination and we’re not doing that, we’re gonna talk through the meeting and then have that discussion. So when I get drafts from my clients, those I, I’m looking for the present levels and I’m looking for how they did and to talk about new goals. And so that’s the key, at least for parents who are listening to try to get those documents, those, those components. So, you know what the path is and, and what they’re doing.
FRANCES ( 00:35:50): The services, it’s so frustrating in placement because like I get it, you don’t want to predetermine. So, ok, we know the child is autistic. We know that’s what the, you know, their ASD is their coding. We know that. So why aren’t you bringing somebody from central office that knows all of the curriculums of ASD? That’s not predetermining, that’s bringing somebody with knowledge of what other avenues are out there. It just gets frustrating that it has to go to the, you know, oh, well, they’re not here yet because we weren’t anticipating it going that way, especially in eligibility. And it’s frustrating to me and that’s why like a lot of times I’ll reach out to legal and be like, hey, we’re requesting that these people be there, you know, because it just, it makes sense because if not, you’re delaying the process. And then I don’t know about you guys, but, for us, a lot of times I advise my clients to always go look at different programs. And sometimes, you know, the schools will be like, oh, we can’t set that up. I’m like this, their home school doesn’t have to set it up in boundary. The parents just can call and say, hey, look, I wanna come see.
SHANNON ( 00:36:56): I would like a tour.
FRANCES ( 00:36:58): Right. Exactly, and that helps a lot. Like, because once the parents see it because if not, you’re just, you know, you’re going in blind right. Exactly. Like they’re, they’re going and saying, oh, well, this is what the classroom looks like and this is what they’re doing but you actually walk into that classroom and not exactly where they.
SHANNON ( 00:37:18): Yeah. So, I know parents, request that they would like to go in and see other, programming. But then there’s, you know, what is it? Not HIPPA? No, it’s the other one. Yeah. Is it FERPA?
FRANCES ( 00:37:36): I think so.
SHANNON ( 00:37:38): FERPA. Yeah. So, you know, you go in before school starts and you meet the teacher and you see the classroom so you’re not, you know, violating a student’s rights. And so, but even getting that part, parents don’t understand why I can’t sit in there for three hours and watch the teacher teach. Right. So, but those are all things that they can do and, and they should do. I mean, if you were gonna go look at a private school, you would go tour the schools. Right. Exactly. You would go see what’s going on, the facilities and, you know, now that parents do have more leeway and they can choose their school sites with school of choice, then, you know, maybe you should go do that. And so, I know that unfortunately, in California though, if you’re on an IEP and you request a school of choice, and your child did qualify for transportation, if it was a parent choice, transportation wouldn’t be provided.
FRANCES ( 00:38:36): Interesting.
SHANNON ( 00:38:37): If it’s a school of choice. Now, if we’re saying the student needs to go there as an, as a, as an IEP team, then yes, transportation would be provided or if that which makes sense. Yeah, if it was a special, if it was a special programming for kids with emotional disturbance, it’s only at one school site, then yes, the school district would provide transportation. But if it’s a school of choice, that’s the parents’ choice and that means they have to provide transportation.
FRANCES ( 00:39:03): Which makes sense because for the general education population, it’s the same way. If they were offering transportation to the General Ed in some form, then it would be, would look different. But that totally makes sense. So I’m trying to think of what else. But then I’m also looking at the clock and going, wow, like I could talk to you all day, I’m sure we could talk forever on this topic.
SHANNON ( 00:39:25): Back to the transition.
FRANCES ( 00:39:27): Back to the transition. So, so I want to go move over to like your advocacy side. So people that might need to advocate, do you only advocate for the transition or is that just your specialty? You still do everything?
SHANNON ( 00:39:38): My specialty is high school students. I do advocate for students in the elementary and middle school, but my specialty is high school age. So yes, the transition plan would be and yeah, my specialty, people with intellectual disabilities.
FRANCES ( 00:39:55): And how do people get in touch with you? Like, so if parents say, oh wow, this is great. I want her to help me with my child. How do, how should parents get in touch with you?
SHANNON ( 00:40:03): I have a website, it’s iepsupport.org. And so all my contact information is there. And that’s the easiest way to get hold of me. If you would like to send an email, it’d be Shannon @ iepsupport.org.
FRANCES ( 00:40:19): Great. And those links will have all those links in the show notes once this gets posted everywhere. So thank you so much, Shannon. This has been so awesome. I love talking to other advocates and, and hearing about other states. Thank you so much for being on the show.
SHANNON ( 00:40:34): Thank you.
VOICEOVER ( 00:40:35): You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEPTM. With your host Frances Shefter. Remember you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through ShefterLaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments and sharing the show with others through YouTube, LinkedIn, Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher and more.
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