In this episode of Stress-Free IEPTM, Frances Shefter speaks with Kamakshi “Kami” Sankar Boyle, a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, Certified EMDR Therapist, and Registered Yoga Teacher. EMDR stands for Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing. Watch the interview to learn more about EMDR and how Kami uses it for her clients.
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
VOICEOVER ( 00:00:00): Welcome to Stress-Free IEPTM. You do not need to do it all alone with your host Frances Shefter, Principal of Shefter Law, she streams a show live on Facebook on Tuesdays at noon Eastern, get more details and catch prior episodes at www.ShefterLaw.com. The Stress-Free IEPTM video podcast is also posted on YouTube and LinkedIn and you can listen to episodes through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, Stitcher and more. Now, here’s the host of Stress-Free IEPTM, Frances Shefter.
FRANCES (00:00:45): Hello everyone and welcome to our show. I am so excited about our guest. Today I’ve known Kami for several years and she does a special type of therapy that I don’t know much about. So I’m excited to learn more and to teach you all more about it. So Kami. Please introduce yourself. Hi
KAMI (00:01:05): Thanks so much for having me here. Yeah my name is Kami and I’m a licensed clinical social worker um and also registered yoga teacher and a certified EMDR Therapist. So today I’m gonna be talking a little bit about EMDR Therapy.
FRANCES (00:01:23): Right so what is EMDR Therapy? What does it stand for? What what does it do? Yes.
KAMI (00:01:29): Yeah. Great. Um So yeah there’s so much to say about EMDR Therapy. I love it how I’ve been doing EMDR therapy for several years uh stands for eye movement desensitization reprocessing. So I movement desensitization reprocessing. Okay so what it means is what we’re gonna look for is we’re looking for um bilateral stimulation okay. Which is the left and the right brain. The hemispheres of the brain. The left brain, the left hemisphere, right hemisphere. Alright. Were. And the goal is what’s called hemispheric integration, right having the left brain and the right brain work together in an integrated fashion right? Oftentimes when we’re in a state of stress or we’ve experienced in a trauma, we’re just in a time in our life for a place in our life where we’re just really stuck. We often will function in just one of the hemispheres of the brain right? So um the bilateral stimulation allows for integration for the two hemispheres to work together. Okay. Which is what the healthy brain, what we really want to be able to do. So we can just access the full intended use of our brain and all of the wonderful functions of our brain. Um bilateral stimulation also called BLS. For short is anything any kind of movement or motion that allows for left right in a rhythmic pattern. Right? So whenever MGR was being researched it’s a very heavily researched evidence based therapy that’s been around for many decades um and started with eye movements all right. So following either some technology that was going back and forth, back and forth or just your therapist fingers that are moving back and forth in front of you. Your eyes would move back and forth. That’s where it first started in terms of research. Um but then it has evolved greatly. Um and adapted to many, many, many different types of settings, um and different preferences that people might have. Some people like to close their eyes in therapy. So you can keep your eyes closed and still experience BLS. Um and how we do that is we could do either holding onto buzzers and have a buzzing, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. We could do self taps where you’re tapping on yourself. Or if you want, your therapist could tap on your tap on your knees maybe or you could tap your feet back and forth. Um There are some natural forms of bilateral stimulation that we all do in our day to day, like walking right, like meditative walking, right, we’re in a in that left, right, left, right rhythmic pattern. So many people
FRANCES (00:04:21): I remember that. So when I was a runner, that was like, I used to say, I would hit that zone and that’s probably what it was, because
KAMI (00:04:30): that’s what it was exactly. That’s what it was. And so that back and forth what it does, especially if you’re running and you’re moving fast, right or you’re doing a walking meditation, which is a very, very um you know, ancient practice right is an ancient practice to do walking meditation. Walking, mindfulness practices. Um what you’re doing there is you’re allowing your hemispheres of your brain to integrate. And so what happens there is people feel like more relaxed like you said like more zen or they might think about something a little bit differently. Different insights come to people. Um you know when they’re in that state? Um The other thing that that there’s some other natural forms of bilateral stimulation is a swimming is another one. Uh And drumming back and forth. Back and forth. Drumming can be a type of bilateral stimulation and many different types of dance and different types of movement. Yoga, Things like this. This this can all induce that same bilateral stimulation.
FRANCES (00:05:34): So it’s therapy though. So it’s bilateral stimulation. And what I’m hearing like from my running days of what I’m hearing is when you’re doing it hit your zen. So how does this work? Like can it treat people in the long term?
KAMI (00:05:48): So what we do then is we start off with the eye movements? Right? The EMDR S. The E. M. Is the eye movement, right? So it could be the eye movements. It could be other forms of bilateral stimulation. Okay but then the way that becomes therapeutic is that it’s we then focused on the D. R. Right? So the desensitization and the re-processing. Okay so desensitization meaning on a scale of 0 to 10. How reactive are you to this experience? Right? So often times in therapy there people will come into therapy or call a therapist for a specific reason, right? And it could be some problem solving, It could be just working on some coping skills, It could be a family stress or things like that. It could be in your for your case of your your work, it could be that your child is struggling or that you are struggling, which is navigating parenting or navigating the education system, or how do you uh advocating for your child’s needs? Um whatever it might be, you call a therapist, typically with some presenting problem. Right? So, at that point, we’re gonna be looking at what is this, what is this that you want to work on? Right? What does this mean to you? We’ll do a lot of, a lot of like, history taking in the beginning, we’ll be looking at um you know, tell me more about you as the parents tell me about your history, right? What does this mean to you? You have a child that might have unmet learning needs or unmet needs, or just something is going on at home. And what does this mean to you? Tell me about yourself? Tell me about your experience, your own, you know, childhood, your own belief system, things like that. And then I’ll be doing some digging around and kind of thinking about kind of, what are we going to target here, right? And looking at that. So, in terms of the desensitization, desensitization, we’re gonna be looking at how reactive are you Like, what does this mean to you? How stress stressful is this to you? Right? So scale of 0 to 10, you know, let’s say like my child, you know, navigating having a learning difference um or a behavior issue or a um some sort of unmet need or a health condition. That’s really stressful. Absolutely racist scale of 0 to 10. I’m at a nine on a regular basis, right? And I can’t fall asleep at night. I you know, I can’t get along with with my my partner. I scream at my child more than I would like to things like that. Um You know, I can’t stop thinking about this so on and so forth. Right? Um We’ll be looking at that. So that’s your reactivity, right? That’s that part of the brain that is telling you there’s a problem. There’s a threat, There’s a problem. This is not good, right?
FRANCES (00:08:39): So when you go into the like flight or fight, yeah.
KAMI (00:08:44): Fight the fight mode, right? I gotta fight to protect my child, right? Uh flight. I just gotta get away from this. I don’t want to deal with this, right? Um freeze. I’m just stuck. I just do not know what to do with myself, right? Or with this child, right? Um There’s also other ones called is another one Fawn is like, you know, people pleasing and let let me let me put everyone else’s needs ahead of my own? That’s a coping mechanism, right? For stress, right? Let me just make sure everyone else is okay then, I’ll be okay, right? Um Other ones like denial avoidance and another one called dissociation, where you just don’t feel like you’re physically present in your body.
FRANCES (00:9:26): So is it kind of like because I know a little bit about tapping, is it kind of like tapping that when the EMDR You’re focused on that one trigger?
KAMI (00:9:34): Yeah. Yeah. So what we’ll do is we’ll we’ll go through there’s eight phases in EMDR S. Like standard protocol EMDR There’s going to be eight phases. So we start off with just getting a really really good history and then you start focusing on targets. What do you want to what do you want to target? Right, I get it. That there’s all these stressors, right? Often has any kind of therapy of a laundry list of different things, you know that that are hard for you um and are bothering you but let’s really kind of narrow it down, Okay, narrow it down to a target. And what I’m looking for. There is a belief system, right? A belief, What do I believe here? What is my cognition? Right? And often times it will be what I call a maladaptive cognition. Sometimes we use the word negative doesn’t mean that it’s actually negative. It could mean that it’s just not helping you anymore. It could be that it was a very important belief in cognition for you to hold on to in your growing up years if you are in a survival mode of fight or flight mode in your own life experience um And but what we’re looking at there is um the cognition, what do I believe to be true? Right? So let’s say it’s someone that you know one of your clients that might be you know navigating an IEP And you know taking care of their child who might have special needs or health condition right? What do I believe to be true right now? What is the cognition that I hold onto? Okay um And in that what we’re looking at when we talk about EMDR We often talk about memories right? In the memory network there is there are cognition is right that’s part of our memory network. There’s also going to be emotion in that there’s going to be a sensation like physical sensation. When I go to this place okay my heart starts racing or it becomes harder to breathe or I can’t fall asleep at night right or so on and so forth. There’s just different sensations. Or I feel a lot of tension, muscle tension in my in my body. Alright so we’re going to look a little bit at the sensations and what happens in the body um We’re also going to be looking at. Are there any images here? What comes up whenever you go into this this cognition right? What comes up in terms of the imagery right? And so for um for a standard you know EMDR Session we’ll be looking at that. We’ll look at the cognition, we’ll look at the sensation, the emotion and the imagery that comes up and then and I’ll ask you while doing the BLS right while doing the either the eye movements which can be done virtually now by the way with technology has helped us in the pandemic
FRANCES (00:12:16): one plus of the pandemic we all learned how to go virtual
KAMI (00:12:19): exactly and it became more accessible really to people who otherwise weren’t able to access therapy. They were able to have a session during their lunch break where they otherwise wouldn’t have been able to you know go in for a session. Um So we’ll be doing the virtual you know eye movements and then I’ll be asking you to hold onto that that cognition right? You’re you’re watching it like it’s a movie. The cognition and that imagery and noticing and the emotion and sensation. So what I’ll do then is I’ll stop every about every um You know 15-20 seconds we’ll be stopping taking it inhale and exhale and just kind of noticing what’s coming up so oftentimes what comes up as people first start off by getting very well people first start off saying this is really
FRANCES (00:13:07): weird
KAMI (00:13:9): this is really strange and I don’t understand what’s going on but but then we start going into the body and then we see the body starts to release a little bit. Start to relax a little bit. Alright Some people depending on their trauma and depending on you know their their own experiences with anxiety and their body they might start to feel like a lot of sensation or they might start to feel a lot of emotion or they are just crying. A lot of people just feel really sleepy. The eye movements which are similar to the eye movements whenever we’re in the rem cycle of our sleep right where we’re processing right? So they might begin to just feel sleepy and yawn and that’s all good stuff. That’s all good stuff. It means the brain is doing what it’s supposed to do right? The severe EMDR Is really natural form of the brain healing right? There are natural forms of healing and E. M. B. R. Is natural right? There’s no we’re not doing anything that your brain doesn’t already do when it’s sleeping.
FRANCES (00:14:06): So I’m gonna take this a little a little different direction because I don’t know if you know that I’m a foster parent. Um So yeah we’re a foster family now and I do a lot of work in D. C. Foster system or foster parents in Maryland and when you say trauma I mean these foster kids are jumping into my mind and so you know a couple of questions are how old and does the child actually have to remember?
KAMI (00:14:32): Yeah that’s what happened. Yeah that’s a great question. So how how young can a child be when I was trained in EMDR The person that trained me did bilateral stimulation on as young as three years old.
FRANCES (00:14:47): Okay.
KAMI (00:14:48): And it’s gonna of course look very different. The great thing about EMDR Is that can be it can be really adapted to different age groups and two different needs and it can also be adapted to different um different cultural backgrounds to people who may be um you know who might have had difficulty accessing talk therapy right? Talk therapy is very different and it uses a different part of the brain, right? It uses more of those cognition. So EMDR Can be used with Children as very young. You want a very specially trained um EMDR Therapist there that feels comfortable working with Children and who has experience um Ana Gomez is a trainer in using EMDR With Children. Um
FRANCES (00:15:36): And in
KAMI (00:15:37): terms of do they have to remember? No they really don’t and they don’t have to talk about it at all. And even I see that even to adults that I work with some adults you know they’re very hesitant. People are very hesitant to come into therapy. I don’t want to do I don’t want to go there. I don’t want to open this up. I don’t want to talk about every life experience I’ve ever had. And I say that’s perfectly fine. You don’t have to talk about this. You actually don’t really have to tell me a lot of people like to but you don’t have to tell me that many details. You know about what you what you’re processing. Okay. Um, so with a child, yeah, you can do the some some tapping right? With with the therapist have the therapist that they’re working with. You know, do some bilateral tapping. Um Some things that can be helpful is just doing some just on their on their feet, right? Just tapping back and forth on their feet on each foot. And doing some drawing some coloring and some, you know, art therapy. Play therapy, right? And allowing for the traumas, right? All of the emotion and the bodily sensation, right? Allowing that to clear.
FRANCES (00:16:50): So
KAMI (00:16:51): with trauma, we always say, you know, the body remembers, right? So, it doesn’t have to be that the child is able to like cognitively um, you know, share, you know, verbatim, you know, word for word, what they’re going through. It could be that their bodies holding the tension, right? And then, you know, And then of course comes in kind of how is that? You know, without therapy or without any intervention. Like what then is happening to that body, right? If we’re holding so much of that trauma what then is happening to that body. And let’s say like to the just the sensations and the tension that they’re holding and the nervous system function. Right? So we want to give kids like that an outlet to release that trauma.
FRANCES (00:17:37): And you said there were eight phases. So like how like is that eight sessions or is that you know more sessions?
KAMI (00:17:45): Yeah that’s a good question. Um There are eight phases right? So there’s eight stages that that as a therapist I take a person through in order to consider like complete um you know some of those faces could go longer than others. Some of them can be very short. Um It really depends on the person. Now everybody likes to ask you know how many sessions do I really have to be in there before? I don’t really want to be in therapy for that long. Uh And I that’s a very frequent question. Um And I totally understand it’s hard work. Um According to research I’ll say this according to research and again E. N. D. R. Is very heavily researched um 3 to 4 sessions. Often times people feel some relief after 3 to 4 sessions. People feel some relief some people like to continue past that. Right? It really does depend because oftentimes what happens is people are not coming into therapy necessarily with a single trauma right? There’s often multiple traumas and perhaps even like more complex or developmental, you know, trauma. So with that that’s okay. That’s not too um discourage people, but what that means is that we want to be really clear about what we’re targeting here. Okay, It may not be, you know, going back to like your your your podcast listeners. It may not be that it’s the IEP. You know, sitting in that room with, you know, the teachers and the administrators and talk to
people and talking about your child. It could not be that maybe that’s what the the real root is, right? We want to look at the root, right? What is the real root here? Okay, well, could it be that there’s something from your childhood, your early childhood, right? You know, sitting in this room with, you know, you know, as much as, you know, 10 different teachers and administrators, I feel like I can’t even breathe sometimes. I feel like I can’t I can’t contain my tears. I I’m so scared, you know, for my child. Okay, well what is, what is the cognition there? And let’s go back, let’s go back. When was the first time you remember feeling that way? When was the last time you felt that way?
FRANCES (00:20:07): Right? It’s so funny that you say that because it brought me back to my teaching days and I remember my first couple of years teaching when the principal would call me to her office, I would freak out. You know, I’m a teacher, I’m an adult and I knew she wasn’t gonna, you know yell at me or anything, but it was just that memory as a child getting called to the principal office was really bad. Yeah,
KAMI (00:20:31): exactly, exactly, exactly. So in the end the recession, you could work through that right? Kind of like what does that feel like in the body, like you get that that call that you need, that you’re, you know, I have to go down to the principal’s office was I feel like in the body, what are the emotions and what is that cognition was it sounds like, oh my goodness, did I do something wrong? Am I bad? Right? Did I make a mistake, you know, so on and so forth. Right? Yeah.
FRANCES (00:20:54): So you were saying like 3-4 sessions, which I know I get it, you know? It depends because what would you say that is like per issue? So you would have to do each individual issue that you’re having.
KAMI (00:21:08): Yeah, so that’s a good question. Um ideally what we want to do that, what the therapist needs to really be able to do is to hone in on what is the root of all of these different issues together, right? So you could come into therapy with like, you know, 10 different issues, right? 10 different traumas, you know, all these, you know, these these awful things have happened, right? And all these major stressors in your life and ideally what we want to look at and start to look at is what is the root cognition there.
FRANCES (00:21:40): And
KAMI (00:21:41): often times, you know, just just to give you an example. Oftentimes um some of the cognition is that are really common or things like I’m just I’m just not safe or I’m just I’m just worthless, I’m just worthless or I’m a failure. Um or I’m not going to survive. Right? So we want to look at that. So that could have come up many different times in your life and you know, the imagery is going to be there, the memory is going to be there. Yes, but notice that the umbrella, right? That root cause is all the same cognition,
FRANCES (00:22:17): that makes sense. And so as the therapist, you help narrow everything down to Yeah,
KAMI (00:22:23): you want to narrow it down. We want to narrow it down and that will help you know, help you. So, through the produce through the protocol. What happens then? Is that desensitization? Right? We want to bring that reactivity down. So I’m very sensitive, let’s say to this cognition, right? So scale of 0 to 10, I go up to a nine every time something happens, right, every time I think about this, every time my child comes home from school or something like that, right? I go up to a nine. Okay, so what we want to do in this protocol is um we’re bringing that number down right? We’re bringing that number down. So our emotions or sensations were not so reactive right? And then what we want to do when we do start to bring it down okay? Is that we want to look at what would be more helpful to you if that’s a maladaptive cognition? What would be more adaptive? What would help you now in your parenting journey? Right? In your parenting journey now you know you’re working with your child and helping them have their needs met right? What would be more adaptive? What would be more helpful to you? Right? So then we want to look at kind of going back and installing that right? So that’s
FRANCES (00:23:38): what we want.
KAMI (00:23:40): Exactly right? Like and re processing Re processing Okay And then we’ll do in the protocol will also look at kind of future template. So it could be that you know I have an IEPMeeting coming up and so we might do some sessions on like kind of what would you like that meeting? You know to look like? Like what do you need in your body in your emotions and your sensations right? In your cognition. What do you need there? Right well I want to believe that I am a really good mother. I want to believe I’m a really good parent. Um I want to believe that I have the support that I need.
FRANCES (00:24:18): Yeah. Um wow. And it’s you know the first thing that comes to mind with that as a parent sitting at an I. P. Table and stuff is that it’s so stressful and it’s so emotional and um you know I we joke around in a parent group you know people were saying why is my daughter’s IEP meeting so stressful. And I always say look I do this for a living. I, you know, help families get through it. That’s stress-free IEP But my own daughters IEP meeting it’s stressful for me too because it’s a parent that’s where you are.
FRANCES (00:24:58): So when you go into keep saying cognition is that like is there a is there like a list of cognition zor is that can you go a little deeper into that shura
KAMI (00:25:9): cognition is a is a belief right? It’s a belief right? So we have automatic thoughts right? That’s I don’t know if you’re familiar with like cognitive behavioral therapy. So we talked so in cognitive behavioral therapy they call it automatic thoughts right? But when we have these thoughts they oftentimes have a theme right? And that’s where we want to pay attention to. So as a therapist we’re gonna I listen for that. All right. I’m listening for what are these thoughts? What does this theme seem to be here? Right. So we want to go a little different and deeper I’m sorry go a little deeper into that of looking at the cognition, the beliefs, what do I believe about myself? What do I believe about my, let’s say, like, my family, what do I believe about my community? What do I believe about the world? Right. So, that’s part of, like, our perspective, right? Our worldview, our view of ourselves, right? And oftentimes in childhood, um, you know, 02 to 10 years old or so is when Children are developing those beliefs, right? Developing those cognition about myself, about my family, about my the collective, about the world around me.
FRANCES (00:26:27): So, the first thing that came to mind on that is Children that were brought up in the depression era.
KAMI (00:26:34): Yeah.
FRANCES (00:26:35): Like, you know, they thought there’s no money, you’re gonna lose everything. And so that, like, you know, I have to save as much as possible. So
KAMI (00:26:42): that
FRANCES (00:26:44): interesting.
KAMI (00:26:45): Absolute. Right. And so, again, like, what were they exposed to? Like, 0 to 10 years, right. If that’s what they were exposed to? Yeah, that was part of their survival mechanism. And that was that was adaptive for them at that time? That helped people survive? Right. At that time? What happens though? Right, fast forward isn’t maladaptive and how we know that? Is is it creating more stress? Right. Is it creating more stress or in other words, like creating symptoms, right,
FRANCES (00:27:18): symptoms?
KAMI (00:27:19): Right? Like, like an example, like insomnia, is it creating insomnia? That’s a symptom. And then it’s because that has then become maladaptive. Right.
FRANCES (00:27:27): Right, interesting. That’s so, so it’s adaptive at that time. Yes, exactly. Like,
KAMI (00:27:35): so my clients all the time that, you know, this sort of really important purpose. It’s helped you survive. Right. It did what it was supposed to do, right. This cognition kept you safe, right? Kept you in that, you know, that ability to cope and survive whatever those circumstances might have been. Right. But at this time, is it helping it? Or is it creating more symptoms? Is it making you feel unwell?
FRANCES (00:28:04): Um, so for parents, like not to look back at my audience, I want to give them a little something. So, I mean, I think this is great and people, I hope people will call you, but like you have some, like, simple ways to reduce stress in the home because I mean, as you know, the parents of young Children, it’s it’s difficult to begin with the add on neurodivergent Children and it’s just overwhelmed. And so what can parents do to help bring themselves down when they feel that heightened sensation?
KAMI (00:28:34): Yeah, that’s a great. That’s a great question. Um, so yeah, simple things, Right, Just at home. Um, start looking a little bit at some of those cognition. Right? Thinking about kind of, what are some of the patterns of my own thinking. What are some of the patterns of what do I believe about myself, What I believe about my Children. What I believe about our family, about our community, right? About the world around me, start looking at those, it could even be a simple exercise of like writing it down in a journal, right? And then thinking about how can I, is there something that I want to work on? Something that I really want to target? Okay. Um also looking at our kids right now, I believe about my kid, right, What do I believe about my child? How do I notice their strengths? Right? How do I listen and pay attention to their needs?
FRANCES (00:29:30): Right?
KAMI (00:29:30): How do I notice whenever their needs might becoming becoming overwhelming to me and what might that mean that I need them? Right, So some other ways are being able to just get comfortable with, um, you know, being comfortable with making some slight changes and being flexible, like in our, in our thinking, um being able to reframe and really look for those strengths, right? Like that child who, you know, doesn’t sit still in their class and if that if you’re getting notes home every day about that, okay, the strength there is, wow, that child must be super athletic. I know. Um right, or or that child who, you know, has something to say about everything. Right? Okay, that’s awesome. You have some great opinions and I really want to hear about those, right? I really want to hear about those right now is not the time, but I want to hear about those opinions. Is looking for strength in the child. That’s such a it’s such a gift you can give to yourself and to the child. Right? Many Children with neuro divergence it’s it’s a really tough system to be a neurodivergent child. Um It’s tough. It’s tough out there right? When we kind of um there’s a lot of struggles to get um kind of standard learning accomplished. But there are tons of strengths of being a neurodivergent child and adult in this world and focus on those. Look for those strengths right? And if you’re struggling with that look asked for some feedback or I asked for some feedback to look for those strengths um and look for things that let’s see things that you know your child can participate in, right? It may not be the standard thing and it may not be what you believed your parenting journey was going to look like
FRANCES (00:31:30): right? Right?
KAMI (00:31:31): Right. And it’s
FRANCES (00:31:32): um you know like on IEPs. It’s always and I don’t want to say they’re negative but they’re always they’re focused there’s present levels that’s supposed to say where your child is but then it goes into the weaknesses which is where we get the goals so they can be so you know focused on the weaknesses which I get and I understand because we want to bring the weaknesses up. But I always say find the child’s strength and bring the weaknesses up. Using that strength.
KAMI (00:32:00): Yes, Absolutely. Absolutely. So that’s super that childhood cancer is still in the class is fine, that’s great. Okay, go for a walk, let’s go for a walk. Let’s do something physical. Let’s get one of those bouncy balls and bounce, right? Look for their strength when you’re at home. Same thing. Right. How many times can you, you know, run up and down the stairs. Okay, great. That’s awesome. Right. If they’re able to do some sports or some activities, even just something in the backyard or something in your home um just again, focus on their strengths. And what does that then mean about them? Right. Right. What does that mean about them?
FRANCES (00:32:40): All
KAMI (00:32:40): right. So I have a very athletic, you know, older child. And what does that mean then about you? Okay, fine. Yeah. Okay, you can play this game, right. But what does that mean about you that that you can stay in the game? You’re a good team player, right? You have good communication skills, you can talk to those friends, support them. Um in persistence practice, you show up for practice every day, Right? Your persistence? That’s persistence. Right? What else is it about you? That that you can and and so we want to foster and Children like that healthy healthy cognition is right, I can do hard, I can do hard things. It is ok. When I don’t have control over everything I can find things that I can control. Right? I
FRANCES (00:33:25): mean I would say it’s also not minimizing the strength because people will be like, you know when somebody would compliment like wow that was a great throw, You’ve got a great arm, you know? And the kid will say oh you know it’s not a big deal, right? Because it’s you know, that’s like minimizing it, realizing, look you can throw but you know, the next 20 people don’t have an arm like
KAMI (00:33:49): you and you’re a leader then, right?
FRANCES (00:33:53): That’s that’s
KAMI (00:33:54): wonderful. That’s a great thing, right? And then I have a younger one who is just super imaginative, right? So again, looking at the like what does that mean then about you? Right, okay. That you’re curious that you’re bright, right? That you think differently and that’s awesome. You see the world differently. You have a different perspective and that’s beautiful, right? And so really look for those strings. Um and then same thing with yourself as the parent, right? What does that mean about you? Right? That you’ve got to that you’re working with an attorney, you’re going to these IEP meetings. What does this mean about you write that your you are dedicated, right? That you are loyal and good, good enough parent, right? And not because that doesn’t exist,
FRANCES (00:34:43): right?
KAMI (00:34:44): Good enough, good
FRANCES (00:34:46): enough, right? And that you know it’s so interesting because a lot of times like our society takes asking for help is a weakness and in actuality it’s a strength. It’s knowing, you know, like I can’t do this. So, I I’m going to hire somebody to help me do that.
KAMI (00:35:03): Absolutely. Asking for help. It is a strength. Absolutely another strength is really learning how to say no right? Again, in our society, right? In our society, we very much want people don’t say no, keep piling on, piling on actually, it’s a strength to say no, learn how to say no, and just like they say no is a complete sentence. You don’t
FRANCES (00:35:24): have to just gonna say
KAMI (00:35:25): that over explain, right, all that stuff that over explaining and that, you know, that’s that’s a stress response. Right? Again that fawn, right? Fight, flight freeze, fawn, right, guilt, guilt
FRANCES (00:35:38): responses, saying no, you don’t say
KAMI (00:35:43): due to that becomes a stressor of does it mean something again that cognition, does it mean something negative about me, Right? If I’m saying no to things, Right? And so, you know, as a therapist, I would be looking at, well, why aren’t you saying no to
FRANCES (00:35:57): more
KAMI (00:35:58): obligations or saying no, maybe saying no to the Children are saying no to um activities or or certain work obligations, right? What is the what is the cognition there?
FRANCES (00:36:11): Got it. That’s so interesting because Yeah, I mean, I remember back, if you want to get something done, if you want somebody to do something, ask a busy person because you can tell they don’t know how to say no and they’re gonna do it and they’re going to get it done.
KAMI (00:36:25): Exactly. So learning how to say no and letting that just be the complete sentence, asking for help, looking at those strengths, Reframing doing some journaling and then just doing some other types of just, you know, breathing exercises, just things just, you don’t have to sit down for a formal practice, but just um if you’re not able to, but just something like you’re cooking dinner right? Just noticing, you know, kind of being more mindful, okay, turning off the cellphone, imagine that right? Just turning it out like powering off, you
FRANCES (00:37:00): know, power anxiety with
KAMI (00:37:04): powering down for an hour or two hours in the evening, right? Um just being unavailable or do not disturb, right? Um noticing, you know, if you’re washing the dishes, you know, just notice the temperature of the water, the smell, the any taste in your mouth, what colors you see, if you’re looking out the window, right? Notice um you know, any of the sounds, things like that. Um just allowing your giving your brain that break,
FRANCES (00:37:36): just
KAMI (00:37:37): be present and to breathe and to come back into the body.
FRANCES (00:37:43): Ah that is like just so amazing because I’m thinking about when I’m doing dishes, I’m usually listening to podcasts, thinking about all the things I need to do next instead of just being
KAMI (00:37:54): just being and just washing the dishes, just feeling the temperature of the water on your hands And that’s the same thing if you’re cooking something, you know just smelling the flavors right? And just smelling it and then that’s it, right? And then later listening to your podcast or later doing the to do list right? Being able to give your brain and body that small break.
FRANCES (00:38:17): Yeah. That is so wonderful. I could talk to you all day about this. It’s so amazing. So how can we get in touch with you? Like if people want to learn more about EMDR Want to make an appointment with you, you know how can people do that?
KAMI (00:38:31): Oh yeah great. Um Yeah I have a website so I can share the website with you and so people can reach out to me. Um and I’m also really um a big advocate of just finding the right match. So even if I’m not the right match for someone, you know I have a really big network of other therapists and so I love you know finding good matches for people and you know, I can send you other names and help you just find and if it’s not EMDR You’re looking for if you’re looking for talk therapy or another type of brain based or body based therapy, those are those are great. Um there are a lot of therapists in this in this area and there’s a lot of there’s a lot of help available for people who are ready and able to access that help.
FRANCES (00:39:17): I’d love that you say find the right match. Because I know like for me it’s why did they choose that person over me? And it’s like there’s nothing wrong with me. It’s just the other person was a better match.
KAMI (00:39:30): Exactly. Exactly. Find that right match. It’s going to be so helpful to the to the client, you know, to have that good match to again, like looking at that. Can I trust that person? Do I feel safe with that person? Do I feel heard
FRANCES (00:39:47): right? That is so wonderful. This is so amazing. We are gonna put your your link, your contact information will be in the show notes. Um if you’re listening to this on a podcast. If you enjoyed listening to Kami and wanted, you know when we have more shows, make sure you follow me on instagram, twitter linkedin, facebook and Youtube subscribe to any of those channels so that you get notified when we get more when we have more videos and more live. And also, if you know of somebody that you think would be a great guest on my show, I’m always looking to meet new people and please go ahead. Put it in a comment. Shoot me an email. I would love to hear from you.
VOICEOVER ( 00:38:52): you. You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEPTM. With your host Frances Shefter. Remember you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through ShefterLaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments and sharing the show with others through YouTube, LinkedIn, Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher and more.
Stress-Free IEP™ with Frances Shefter and Kamakshi “Kami” Sankar Boyle
In this episode of Stress-Free IEPTM, Frances Shefter speaks with Kamakshi “Kami” Sankar Boyle, a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, Certified EMDR Therapist, and Registered Yoga Teacher. EMDR stands for Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing. Watch the interview to learn more about EMDR and how Kami uses it for her clients.
Stress-Free IEPTM:
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
Watch more episodes of Stress-FreeTM on YouTube.
Connect and learn more from your host, Frances Shefter:
Rad the full transcript of this episode:
VOICEOVER ( 00:00:00): Welcome to Stress-Free IEPTM. You do not need to do it all alone with your host Frances Shefter, Principal of Shefter Law, she streams a show live on Facebook on Tuesdays at noon Eastern, get more details and catch prior episodes at www.ShefterLaw.com. The Stress-Free IEPTM video podcast is also posted on YouTube and LinkedIn and you can listen to episodes through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, Stitcher and more. Now, here’s the host of Stress-Free IEPTM, Frances Shefter.
FRANCES (00:00:45): Hello everyone and welcome to our show. I am so excited about our guest. Today I’ve known Kami for several years and she does a special type of therapy that I don’t know much about. So I’m excited to learn more and to teach you all more about it. So Kami. Please introduce yourself. Hi
KAMI (00:01:05): Thanks so much for having me here. Yeah my name is Kami and I’m a licensed clinical social worker um and also registered yoga teacher and a certified EMDR Therapist. So today I’m gonna be talking a little bit about EMDR Therapy.
FRANCES (00:01:23): Right so what is EMDR Therapy? What does it stand for? What what does it do? Yes.
KAMI (00:01:29): Yeah. Great. Um So yeah there’s so much to say about EMDR Therapy. I love it how I’ve been doing EMDR therapy for several years uh stands for eye movement desensitization reprocessing. So I movement desensitization reprocessing. Okay so what it means is what we’re gonna look for is we’re looking for um bilateral stimulation okay. Which is the left and the right brain. The hemispheres of the brain. The left brain, the left hemisphere, right hemisphere. Alright. Were. And the goal is what’s called hemispheric integration, right having the left brain and the right brain work together in an integrated fashion right? Oftentimes when we’re in a state of stress or we’ve experienced in a trauma, we’re just in a time in our life for a place in our life where we’re just really stuck. We often will function in just one of the hemispheres of the brain right? So um the bilateral stimulation allows for integration for the two hemispheres to work together. Okay. Which is what the healthy brain, what we really want to be able to do. So we can just access the full intended use of our brain and all of the wonderful functions of our brain. Um bilateral stimulation also called BLS. For short is anything any kind of movement or motion that allows for left right in a rhythmic pattern. Right? So whenever MGR was being researched it’s a very heavily researched evidence based therapy that’s been around for many decades um and started with eye movements all right. So following either some technology that was going back and forth, back and forth or just your therapist fingers that are moving back and forth in front of you. Your eyes would move back and forth. That’s where it first started in terms of research. Um but then it has evolved greatly. Um and adapted to many, many, many different types of settings, um and different preferences that people might have. Some people like to close their eyes in therapy. So you can keep your eyes closed and still experience BLS. Um and how we do that is we could do either holding onto buzzers and have a buzzing, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. We could do self taps where you’re tapping on yourself. Or if you want, your therapist could tap on your tap on your knees maybe or you could tap your feet back and forth. Um There are some natural forms of bilateral stimulation that we all do in our day to day, like walking right, like meditative walking, right, we’re in a in that left, right, left, right rhythmic pattern. So many people
FRANCES (00:04:21): I remember that. So when I was a runner, that was like, I used to say, I would hit that zone and that’s probably what it was, because
KAMI (00:04:30): that’s what it was exactly. That’s what it was. And so that back and forth what it does, especially if you’re running and you’re moving fast, right or you’re doing a walking meditation, which is a very, very um you know, ancient practice right is an ancient practice to do walking meditation. Walking, mindfulness practices. Um what you’re doing there is you’re allowing your hemispheres of your brain to integrate. And so what happens there is people feel like more relaxed like you said like more zen or they might think about something a little bit differently. Different insights come to people. Um you know when they’re in that state? Um The other thing that that there’s some other natural forms of bilateral stimulation is a swimming is another one. Uh And drumming back and forth. Back and forth. Drumming can be a type of bilateral stimulation and many different types of dance and different types of movement. Yoga, Things like this. This this can all induce that same bilateral stimulation.
FRANCES (00:05:34): So it’s therapy though. So it’s bilateral stimulation. And what I’m hearing like from my running days of what I’m hearing is when you’re doing it hit your zen. So how does this work? Like can it treat people in the long term?
KAMI (00:05:48): So what we do then is we start off with the eye movements? Right? The EMDR S. The E. M. Is the eye movement, right? So it could be the eye movements. It could be other forms of bilateral stimulation. Okay but then the way that becomes therapeutic is that it’s we then focused on the D. R. Right? So the desensitization and the re-processing. Okay so desensitization meaning on a scale of 0 to 10. How reactive are you to this experience? Right? So often times in therapy there people will come into therapy or call a therapist for a specific reason, right? And it could be some problem solving, It could be just working on some coping skills, It could be a family stress or things like that. It could be in your for your case of your your work, it could be that your child is struggling or that you are struggling, which is navigating parenting or navigating the education system, or how do you uh advocating for your child’s needs? Um whatever it might be, you call a therapist, typically with some presenting problem. Right? So, at that point, we’re gonna be looking at what is this, what is this that you want to work on? Right? What does this mean to you? We’ll do a lot of, a lot of like, history taking in the beginning, we’ll be looking at um you know, tell me more about you as the parents tell me about your history, right? What does this mean to you? You have a child that might have unmet learning needs or unmet needs, or just something is going on at home. And what does this mean to you? Tell me about yourself? Tell me about your experience, your own, you know, childhood, your own belief system, things like that. And then I’ll be doing some digging around and kind of thinking about kind of, what are we going to target here, right? And looking at that. So, in terms of the desensitization, desensitization, we’re gonna be looking at how reactive are you Like, what does this mean to you? How stress stressful is this to you? Right? So scale of 0 to 10, you know, let’s say like my child, you know, navigating having a learning difference um or a behavior issue or a um some sort of unmet need or a health condition. That’s really stressful. Absolutely racist scale of 0 to 10. I’m at a nine on a regular basis, right? And I can’t fall asleep at night. I you know, I can’t get along with with my my partner. I scream at my child more than I would like to things like that. Um You know, I can’t stop thinking about this so on and so forth. Right? Um We’ll be looking at that. So that’s your reactivity, right? That’s that part of the brain that is telling you there’s a problem. There’s a threat, There’s a problem. This is not good, right?
FRANCES (00:08:39): So when you go into the like flight or fight, yeah.
KAMI (00:08:44): Fight the fight mode, right? I gotta fight to protect my child, right? Uh flight. I just gotta get away from this. I don’t want to deal with this, right? Um freeze. I’m just stuck. I just do not know what to do with myself, right? Or with this child, right? Um There’s also other ones called is another one Fawn is like, you know, people pleasing and let let me let me put everyone else’s needs ahead of my own? That’s a coping mechanism, right? For stress, right? Let me just make sure everyone else is okay then, I’ll be okay, right? Um Other ones like denial avoidance and another one called dissociation, where you just don’t feel like you’re physically present in your body.
FRANCES (00:9:26): So is it kind of like because I know a little bit about tapping, is it kind of like tapping that when the EMDR You’re focused on that one trigger?
KAMI (00:9:34): Yeah. Yeah. So what we’ll do is we’ll we’ll go through there’s eight phases in EMDR S. Like standard protocol EMDR There’s going to be eight phases. So we start off with just getting a really really good history and then you start focusing on targets. What do you want to what do you want to target? Right, I get it. That there’s all these stressors, right? Often has any kind of therapy of a laundry list of different things, you know that that are hard for you um and are bothering you but let’s really kind of narrow it down, Okay, narrow it down to a target. And what I’m looking for. There is a belief system, right? A belief, What do I believe here? What is my cognition? Right? And often times it will be what I call a maladaptive cognition. Sometimes we use the word negative doesn’t mean that it’s actually negative. It could mean that it’s just not helping you anymore. It could be that it was a very important belief in cognition for you to hold on to in your growing up years if you are in a survival mode of fight or flight mode in your own life experience um And but what we’re looking at there is um the cognition, what do I believe to be true? Right? So let’s say it’s someone that you know one of your clients that might be you know navigating an IEP And you know taking care of their child who might have special needs or health condition right? What do I believe to be true right now? What is the cognition that I hold onto? Okay um And in that what we’re looking at when we talk about EMDR We often talk about memories right? In the memory network there is there are cognition is right that’s part of our memory network. There’s also going to be emotion in that there’s going to be a sensation like physical sensation. When I go to this place okay my heart starts racing or it becomes harder to breathe or I can’t fall asleep at night right or so on and so forth. There’s just different sensations. Or I feel a lot of tension, muscle tension in my in my body. Alright so we’re going to look a little bit at the sensations and what happens in the body um We’re also going to be looking at. Are there any images here? What comes up whenever you go into this this cognition right? What comes up in terms of the imagery right? And so for um for a standard you know EMDR Session we’ll be looking at that. We’ll look at the cognition, we’ll look at the sensation, the emotion and the imagery that comes up and then and I’ll ask you while doing the BLS right while doing the either the eye movements which can be done virtually now by the way with technology has helped us in the pandemic
FRANCES (00:12:16): one plus of the pandemic we all learned how to go virtual
KAMI (00:12:19): exactly and it became more accessible really to people who otherwise weren’t able to access therapy. They were able to have a session during their lunch break where they otherwise wouldn’t have been able to you know go in for a session. Um So we’ll be doing the virtual you know eye movements and then I’ll be asking you to hold onto that that cognition right? You’re you’re watching it like it’s a movie. The cognition and that imagery and noticing and the emotion and sensation. So what I’ll do then is I’ll stop every about every um You know 15-20 seconds we’ll be stopping taking it inhale and exhale and just kind of noticing what’s coming up so oftentimes what comes up as people first start off by getting very well people first start off saying this is really
FRANCES (00:13:07): weird
KAMI (00:13:9): this is really strange and I don’t understand what’s going on but but then we start going into the body and then we see the body starts to release a little bit. Start to relax a little bit. Alright Some people depending on their trauma and depending on you know their their own experiences with anxiety and their body they might start to feel like a lot of sensation or they might start to feel a lot of emotion or they are just crying. A lot of people just feel really sleepy. The eye movements which are similar to the eye movements whenever we’re in the rem cycle of our sleep right where we’re processing right? So they might begin to just feel sleepy and yawn and that’s all good stuff. That’s all good stuff. It means the brain is doing what it’s supposed to do right? The severe EMDR Is really natural form of the brain healing right? There are natural forms of healing and E. M. B. R. Is natural right? There’s no we’re not doing anything that your brain doesn’t already do when it’s sleeping.
FRANCES (00:14:06): So I’m gonna take this a little a little different direction because I don’t know if you know that I’m a foster parent. Um So yeah we’re a foster family now and I do a lot of work in D. C. Foster system or foster parents in Maryland and when you say trauma I mean these foster kids are jumping into my mind and so you know a couple of questions are how old and does the child actually have to remember?
KAMI (00:14:32): Yeah that’s what happened. Yeah that’s a great question. So how how young can a child be when I was trained in EMDR The person that trained me did bilateral stimulation on as young as three years old.
FRANCES (00:14:47): Okay.
KAMI (00:14:48): And it’s gonna of course look very different. The great thing about EMDR Is that can be it can be really adapted to different age groups and two different needs and it can also be adapted to different um different cultural backgrounds to people who may be um you know who might have had difficulty accessing talk therapy right? Talk therapy is very different and it uses a different part of the brain, right? It uses more of those cognition. So EMDR Can be used with Children as very young. You want a very specially trained um EMDR Therapist there that feels comfortable working with Children and who has experience um Ana Gomez is a trainer in using EMDR With Children. Um
FRANCES (00:15:36): And in
KAMI (00:15:37): terms of do they have to remember? No they really don’t and they don’t have to talk about it at all. And even I see that even to adults that I work with some adults you know they’re very hesitant. People are very hesitant to come into therapy. I don’t want to do I don’t want to go there. I don’t want to open this up. I don’t want to talk about every life experience I’ve ever had. And I say that’s perfectly fine. You don’t have to talk about this. You actually don’t really have to tell me a lot of people like to but you don’t have to tell me that many details. You know about what you what you’re processing. Okay. Um, so with a child, yeah, you can do the some some tapping right? With with the therapist have the therapist that they’re working with. You know, do some bilateral tapping. Um Some things that can be helpful is just doing some just on their on their feet, right? Just tapping back and forth on their feet on each foot. And doing some drawing some coloring and some, you know, art therapy. Play therapy, right? And allowing for the traumas, right? All of the emotion and the bodily sensation, right? Allowing that to clear.
FRANCES (00:16:50): So
KAMI (00:16:51): with trauma, we always say, you know, the body remembers, right? So, it doesn’t have to be that the child is able to like cognitively um, you know, share, you know, verbatim, you know, word for word, what they’re going through. It could be that their bodies holding the tension, right? And then, you know, And then of course comes in kind of how is that? You know, without therapy or without any intervention. Like what then is happening to that body, right? If we’re holding so much of that trauma what then is happening to that body. And let’s say like to the just the sensations and the tension that they’re holding and the nervous system function. Right? So we want to give kids like that an outlet to release that trauma.
FRANCES (00:17:37): And you said there were eight phases. So like how like is that eight sessions or is that you know more sessions?
KAMI (00:17:45): Yeah that’s a good question. Um There are eight phases right? So there’s eight stages that that as a therapist I take a person through in order to consider like complete um you know some of those faces could go longer than others. Some of them can be very short. Um It really depends on the person. Now everybody likes to ask you know how many sessions do I really have to be in there before? I don’t really want to be in therapy for that long. Uh And I that’s a very frequent question. Um And I totally understand it’s hard work. Um According to research I’ll say this according to research and again E. N. D. R. Is very heavily researched um 3 to 4 sessions. Often times people feel some relief after 3 to 4 sessions. People feel some relief some people like to continue past that. Right? It really does depend because oftentimes what happens is people are not coming into therapy necessarily with a single trauma right? There’s often multiple traumas and perhaps even like more complex or developmental, you know, trauma. So with that that’s okay. That’s not too um discourage people, but what that means is that we want to be really clear about what we’re targeting here. Okay, It may not be, you know, going back to like your your your podcast listeners. It may not be that it’s the IEP. You know, sitting in that room with, you know, the teachers and the administrators and talk to
people and talking about your child. It could not be that maybe that’s what the the real root is, right? We want to look at the root, right? What is the real root here? Okay, well, could it be that there’s something from your childhood, your early childhood, right? You know, sitting in this room with, you know, you know, as much as, you know, 10 different teachers and administrators, I feel like I can’t even breathe sometimes. I feel like I can’t I can’t contain my tears. I I’m so scared, you know, for my child. Okay, well what is, what is the cognition there? And let’s go back, let’s go back. When was the first time you remember feeling that way? When was the last time you felt that way?
FRANCES (00:20:07): Right? It’s so funny that you say that because it brought me back to my teaching days and I remember my first couple of years teaching when the principal would call me to her office, I would freak out. You know, I’m a teacher, I’m an adult and I knew she wasn’t gonna, you know yell at me or anything, but it was just that memory as a child getting called to the principal office was really bad. Yeah,
KAMI (00:20:31): exactly, exactly, exactly. So in the end the recession, you could work through that right? Kind of like what does that feel like in the body, like you get that that call that you need, that you’re, you know, I have to go down to the principal’s office was I feel like in the body, what are the emotions and what is that cognition was it sounds like, oh my goodness, did I do something wrong? Am I bad? Right? Did I make a mistake, you know, so on and so forth. Right? Yeah.
FRANCES (00:20:54): So you were saying like 3-4 sessions, which I know I get it, you know? It depends because what would you say that is like per issue? So you would have to do each individual issue that you’re having.
KAMI (00:21:08): Yeah, so that’s a good question. Um ideally what we want to do that, what the therapist needs to really be able to do is to hone in on what is the root of all of these different issues together, right? So you could come into therapy with like, you know, 10 different issues, right? 10 different traumas, you know, all these, you know, these these awful things have happened, right? And all these major stressors in your life and ideally what we want to look at and start to look at is what is the root cognition there.
FRANCES (00:21:40): And
KAMI (00:21:41): often times, you know, just just to give you an example. Oftentimes um some of the cognition is that are really common or things like I’m just I’m just not safe or I’m just I’m just worthless, I’m just worthless or I’m a failure. Um or I’m not going to survive. Right? So we want to look at that. So that could have come up many different times in your life and you know, the imagery is going to be there, the memory is going to be there. Yes, but notice that the umbrella, right? That root cause is all the same cognition,
FRANCES (00:22:17): that makes sense. And so as the therapist, you help narrow everything down to Yeah,
KAMI (00:22:23): you want to narrow it down. We want to narrow it down and that will help you know, help you. So, through the produce through the protocol. What happens then? Is that desensitization? Right? We want to bring that reactivity down. So I’m very sensitive, let’s say to this cognition, right? So scale of 0 to 10, I go up to a nine every time something happens, right, every time I think about this, every time my child comes home from school or something like that, right? I go up to a nine. Okay, so what we want to do in this protocol is um we’re bringing that number down right? We’re bringing that number down. So our emotions or sensations were not so reactive right? And then what we want to do when we do start to bring it down okay? Is that we want to look at what would be more helpful to you if that’s a maladaptive cognition? What would be more adaptive? What would help you now in your parenting journey? Right? In your parenting journey now you know you’re working with your child and helping them have their needs met right? What would be more adaptive? What would be more helpful to you? Right? So then we want to look at kind of going back and installing that right? So that’s
FRANCES (00:23:38): what we want.
KAMI (00:23:40): Exactly right? Like and re processing Re processing Okay And then we’ll do in the protocol will also look at kind of future template. So it could be that you know I have an IEPMeeting coming up and so we might do some sessions on like kind of what would you like that meeting? You know to look like? Like what do you need in your body in your emotions and your sensations right? In your cognition. What do you need there? Right well I want to believe that I am a really good mother. I want to believe I’m a really good parent. Um I want to believe that I have the support that I need.
FRANCES (00:24:18): Yeah. Um wow. And it’s you know the first thing that comes to mind with that as a parent sitting at an I. P. Table and stuff is that it’s so stressful and it’s so emotional and um you know I we joke around in a parent group you know people were saying why is my daughter’s IEP meeting so stressful. And I always say look I do this for a living. I, you know, help families get through it. That’s stress-free IEP But my own daughters IEP meeting it’s stressful for me too because it’s a parent that’s where you are.
KAMI (00:24:52): Exactly yeah absolutely. It’s personal. It feels really personal.
FRANCES (00:24:58): So when you go into keep saying cognition is that like is there a is there like a list of cognition zor is that can you go a little deeper into that shura
KAMI (00:25:9): cognition is a is a belief right? It’s a belief right? So we have automatic thoughts right? That’s I don’t know if you’re familiar with like cognitive behavioral therapy. So we talked so in cognitive behavioral therapy they call it automatic thoughts right? But when we have these thoughts they oftentimes have a theme right? And that’s where we want to pay attention to. So as a therapist we’re gonna I listen for that. All right. I’m listening for what are these thoughts? What does this theme seem to be here? Right. So we want to go a little different and deeper I’m sorry go a little deeper into that of looking at the cognition, the beliefs, what do I believe about myself? What do I believe about my, let’s say, like, my family, what do I believe about my community? What do I believe about the world? Right. So, that’s part of, like, our perspective, right? Our worldview, our view of ourselves, right? And oftentimes in childhood, um, you know, 02 to 10 years old or so is when Children are developing those beliefs, right? Developing those cognition about myself, about my family, about my the collective, about the world around me.
FRANCES (00:26:27): So, the first thing that came to mind on that is Children that were brought up in the depression era.
KAMI (00:26:34): Yeah.
FRANCES (00:26:35): Like, you know, they thought there’s no money, you’re gonna lose everything. And so that, like, you know, I have to save as much as possible. So
KAMI (00:26:42): that
FRANCES (00:26:44): interesting.
KAMI (00:26:45): Absolute. Right. And so, again, like, what were they exposed to? Like, 0 to 10 years, right. If that’s what they were exposed to? Yeah, that was part of their survival mechanism. And that was that was adaptive for them at that time? That helped people survive? Right. At that time? What happens though? Right, fast forward isn’t maladaptive and how we know that? Is is it creating more stress? Right. Is it creating more stress or in other words, like creating symptoms, right,
FRANCES (00:27:18): symptoms?
KAMI (00:27:19): Right? Like, like an example, like insomnia, is it creating insomnia? That’s a symptom. And then it’s because that has then become maladaptive. Right.
FRANCES (00:27:27): Right, interesting. That’s so, so it’s adaptive at that time. Yes, exactly. Like,
KAMI (00:27:35): so my clients all the time that, you know, this sort of really important purpose. It’s helped you survive. Right. It did what it was supposed to do, right. This cognition kept you safe, right? Kept you in that, you know, that ability to cope and survive whatever those circumstances might have been. Right. But at this time, is it helping it? Or is it creating more symptoms? Is it making you feel unwell?
FRANCES (00:28:04): Um, so for parents, like not to look back at my audience, I want to give them a little something. So, I mean, I think this is great and people, I hope people will call you, but like you have some, like, simple ways to reduce stress in the home because I mean, as you know, the parents of young Children, it’s it’s difficult to begin with the add on neurodivergent Children and it’s just overwhelmed. And so what can parents do to help bring themselves down when they feel that heightened sensation?
KAMI (00:28:34): Yeah, that’s a great. That’s a great question. Um, so yeah, simple things, Right, Just at home. Um, start looking a little bit at some of those cognition. Right? Thinking about kind of, what are some of the patterns of my own thinking. What are some of the patterns of what do I believe about myself, What I believe about my Children. What I believe about our family, about our community, right? About the world around me, start looking at those, it could even be a simple exercise of like writing it down in a journal, right? And then thinking about how can I, is there something that I want to work on? Something that I really want to target? Okay. Um also looking at our kids right now, I believe about my kid, right, What do I believe about my child? How do I notice their strengths? Right? How do I listen and pay attention to their needs?
FRANCES (00:29:30): Right?
KAMI (00:29:30): How do I notice whenever their needs might becoming becoming overwhelming to me and what might that mean that I need them? Right, So some other ways are being able to just get comfortable with, um, you know, being comfortable with making some slight changes and being flexible, like in our, in our thinking, um being able to reframe and really look for those strengths, right? Like that child who, you know, doesn’t sit still in their class and if that if you’re getting notes home every day about that, okay, the strength there is, wow, that child must be super athletic. I know. Um right, or or that child who, you know, has something to say about everything. Right? Okay, that’s awesome. You have some great opinions and I really want to hear about those, right? I really want to hear about those right now is not the time, but I want to hear about those opinions. Is looking for strength in the child. That’s such a it’s such a gift you can give to yourself and to the child. Right? Many Children with neuro divergence it’s it’s a really tough system to be a neurodivergent child. Um It’s tough. It’s tough out there right? When we kind of um there’s a lot of struggles to get um kind of standard learning accomplished. But there are tons of strengths of being a neurodivergent child and adult in this world and focus on those. Look for those strengths right? And if you’re struggling with that look asked for some feedback or I asked for some feedback to look for those strengths um and look for things that let’s see things that you know your child can participate in, right? It may not be the standard thing and it may not be what you believed your parenting journey was going to look like
FRANCES (00:31:30): right? Right?
KAMI (00:31:31): Right. And it’s
FRANCES (00:31:32): um you know like on IEPs. It’s always and I don’t want to say they’re negative but they’re always they’re focused there’s present levels that’s supposed to say where your child is but then it goes into the weaknesses which is where we get the goals so they can be so you know focused on the weaknesses which I get and I understand because we want to bring the weaknesses up. But I always say find the child’s strength and bring the weaknesses up. Using that strength.
KAMI (00:32:00): Yes, Absolutely. Absolutely. So that’s super that childhood cancer is still in the class is fine, that’s great. Okay, go for a walk, let’s go for a walk. Let’s do something physical. Let’s get one of those bouncy balls and bounce, right? Look for their strength when you’re at home. Same thing. Right. How many times can you, you know, run up and down the stairs. Okay, great. That’s awesome. Right. If they’re able to do some sports or some activities, even just something in the backyard or something in your home um just again, focus on their strengths. And what does that then mean about them? Right. Right. What does that mean about them?
FRANCES (00:32:40): All
KAMI (00:32:40): right. So I have a very athletic, you know, older child. And what does that mean then about you? Okay, fine. Yeah. Okay, you can play this game, right. But what does that mean about you that that you can stay in the game? You’re a good team player, right? You have good communication skills, you can talk to those friends, support them. Um in persistence practice, you show up for practice every day, Right? Your persistence? That’s persistence. Right? What else is it about you? That that you can and and so we want to foster and Children like that healthy healthy cognition is right, I can do hard, I can do hard things. It is ok. When I don’t have control over everything I can find things that I can control. Right? I
FRANCES (00:33:25): mean I would say it’s also not minimizing the strength because people will be like, you know when somebody would compliment like wow that was a great throw, You’ve got a great arm, you know? And the kid will say oh you know it’s not a big deal, right? Because it’s you know, that’s like minimizing it, realizing, look you can throw but you know, the next 20 people don’t have an arm like
KAMI (00:33:49): you and you’re a leader then, right?
FRANCES (00:33:53): That’s that’s
KAMI (00:33:54): wonderful. That’s a great thing, right? And then I have a younger one who is just super imaginative, right? So again, looking at the like what does that mean then about you? Right, okay. That you’re curious that you’re bright, right? That you think differently and that’s awesome. You see the world differently. You have a different perspective and that’s beautiful, right? And so really look for those strings. Um and then same thing with yourself as the parent, right? What does that mean about you? Right? That you’ve got to that you’re working with an attorney, you’re going to these IEP meetings. What does this mean about you write that your you are dedicated, right? That you are loyal and good, good enough parent, right? And not because that doesn’t exist,
FRANCES (00:34:43): right?
KAMI (00:34:44): Good enough, good
FRANCES (00:34:46): enough, right? And that you know it’s so interesting because a lot of times like our society takes asking for help is a weakness and in actuality it’s a strength. It’s knowing, you know, like I can’t do this. So, I I’m going to hire somebody to help me do that.
KAMI (00:35:03): Absolutely. Asking for help. It is a strength. Absolutely another strength is really learning how to say no right? Again, in our society, right? In our society, we very much want people don’t say no, keep piling on, piling on actually, it’s a strength to say no, learn how to say no, and just like they say no is a complete sentence. You don’t
FRANCES (00:35:24): have to just gonna say
KAMI (00:35:25): that over explain, right, all that stuff that over explaining and that, you know, that’s that’s a stress response. Right? Again that fawn, right? Fight, flight freeze, fawn, right, guilt, guilt
FRANCES (00:35:38): responses, saying no, you don’t say
KAMI (00:35:43): due to that becomes a stressor of does it mean something again that cognition, does it mean something negative about me, Right? If I’m saying no to things, Right? And so, you know, as a therapist, I would be looking at, well, why aren’t you saying no to
FRANCES (00:35:57): more
KAMI (00:35:58): obligations or saying no, maybe saying no to the Children are saying no to um activities or or certain work obligations, right? What is the what is the cognition there?
FRANCES (00:36:11): Got it. That’s so interesting because Yeah, I mean, I remember back, if you want to get something done, if you want somebody to do something, ask a busy person because you can tell they don’t know how to say no and they’re gonna do it and they’re going to get it done.
KAMI (00:36:25): Exactly. So learning how to say no and letting that just be the complete sentence, asking for help, looking at those strengths, Reframing doing some journaling and then just doing some other types of just, you know, breathing exercises, just things just, you don’t have to sit down for a formal practice, but just um if you’re not able to, but just something like you’re cooking dinner right? Just noticing, you know, kind of being more mindful, okay, turning off the cellphone, imagine that right? Just turning it out like powering off, you
FRANCES (00:37:00): know, power anxiety with
KAMI (00:37:04): powering down for an hour or two hours in the evening, right? Um just being unavailable or do not disturb, right? Um noticing, you know, if you’re washing the dishes, you know, just notice the temperature of the water, the smell, the any taste in your mouth, what colors you see, if you’re looking out the window, right? Notice um you know, any of the sounds, things like that. Um just allowing your giving your brain that break,
FRANCES (00:37:36): just
KAMI (00:37:37): be present and to breathe and to come back into the body.
FRANCES (00:37:43): Ah that is like just so amazing because I’m thinking about when I’m doing dishes, I’m usually listening to podcasts, thinking about all the things I need to do next instead of just being
KAMI (00:37:54): just being and just washing the dishes, just feeling the temperature of the water on your hands And that’s the same thing if you’re cooking something, you know just smelling the flavors right? And just smelling it and then that’s it, right? And then later listening to your podcast or later doing the to do list right? Being able to give your brain and body that small break.
FRANCES (00:38:17): Yeah. That is so wonderful. I could talk to you all day about this. It’s so amazing. So how can we get in touch with you? Like if people want to learn more about EMDR Want to make an appointment with you, you know how can people do that?
KAMI (00:38:31): Oh yeah great. Um Yeah I have a website so I can share the website with you and so people can reach out to me. Um and I’m also really um a big advocate of just finding the right match. So even if I’m not the right match for someone, you know I have a really big network of other therapists and so I love you know finding good matches for people and you know, I can send you other names and help you just find and if it’s not EMDR You’re looking for if you’re looking for talk therapy or another type of brain based or body based therapy, those are those are great. Um there are a lot of therapists in this in this area and there’s a lot of there’s a lot of help available for people who are ready and able to access that help.
FRANCES (00:39:17): I’d love that you say find the right match. Because I know like for me it’s why did they choose that person over me? And it’s like there’s nothing wrong with me. It’s just the other person was a better match.
KAMI (00:39:30): Exactly. Exactly. Find that right match. It’s going to be so helpful to the to the client, you know, to have that good match to again, like looking at that. Can I trust that person? Do I feel safe with that person? Do I feel heard
FRANCES (00:39:47): right? That is so wonderful. This is so amazing. We are gonna put your your link, your contact information will be in the show notes. Um if you’re listening to this on a podcast. If you enjoyed listening to Kami and wanted, you know when we have more shows, make sure you follow me on instagram, twitter linkedin, facebook and Youtube subscribe to any of those channels so that you get notified when we get more when we have more videos and more live. And also, if you know of somebody that you think would be a great guest on my show, I’m always looking to meet new people and please go ahead. Put it in a comment. Shoot me an email. I would love to hear from you.
VOICEOVER ( 00:38:52): you. You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEPTM. With your host Frances Shefter. Remember you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through ShefterLaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments and sharing the show with others through YouTube, LinkedIn, Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher and more.
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