In this episode of Stress-Free IEPTM, Frances speaks with Scot Marken, Founder and CEO of EdRedefined. Scot specializes in supporting individuals with disabilities with a focus on autism, ADHD, mental health issues and learning differences. He helps them plan life after high school.
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
VOICEOVER ( 00:00:00): Welcome to Stress-Free IEPTM — You do not need to do it all alone — with your host Frances Shefter, Principal of Shefter Law. She streams a show live on Facebook. Get more details and catch prior episodes at www.ShefterLaw.com. The Stress-Free IEPTM video podcast is also posted on Youtube and LinkedIn and you can listen to episodes through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, Stitcher and more. Now, here’s the host of Stress-Free IEPTM, Frances Shefter.
FRANCES ( 00:00:43): Good afternoon and welcome to the show, everybody. I’m so excited to introduce my next guest on our show, Scot Marken from EdRedefined and I’m so excited because this is a little bit different than we usually do. Usually I focus on IEPs. But you’re not on IEPs as much your more. Well I’ll let you introduce yourself and let us know what you do, Scot.
SCOT( 00:01:07): Sure. Thanks Frances for inviting me. So I’m Scot Markon and I actually specialize in supporting individuals with disabilities with a focus on autism, ADHD, mental health issues and learning differences with post-high school plans and that may be college it may be a gap year might be a combination and so I do a lot of work with IEPs as part of understanding students um and helping them understand and their families understand what is available in terms of support in college and what is not available and what’s the type of process that you go through.
FRANCES ( 00:01:48): Right. And it’s interesting you say that with IEPs Because IEP is in IDEA, which just covers up through someone’s 21st 22nd birthday. Um So what do you do if a student has an IEP and they’re getting ready to go to college? What can they do to get any of the services or supports that they had in high school?
SCOT( 00:02:9): Sure. So that’s a great and a really important question. So the first thing is that many people think um parents sometimes um school administrators um honestly think that your IEP automatically transfers over to college. Okay. And it does not. Um And as you have just brought up the IDEA. The main law that governs accommodations for students in college is related to the ADA, the American with Disabilities Act and that is about access to services. So essentially um there’s a variety of ways that you can get support in college. Most people tend to think of accommodations because if they have an IEP or they have a 504 plan right they get accommodations. Um And that is one main way but not the only way in college. And essentially after you are accepted to college and you decide to commit to one school then you would go reach out to the accessibility services office or disability services office and pursue accommodations and you need to show various documentation, um, have meetings to go ahead and discuss what is, I don’t love this term, But what’s the functional limitation of your disabilities on your education? And one of the big differences um, that I think you maybe just heard me say is you need to go do it. Okay. Um, and that’s very different right? Than what happens in the K through 12 setting you need to write
FRANCES ( 00:03:43): and you is the student not the parents.
SCOT( 00:03:46): Right? So that’s a really good point. Okay? So sometimes at the beginning, um, you know, parents are certainly involved. Okay. Um, however, it’s best, you know, for the students, long term success for this. Students to be as independent as possible in the process. You know, I do help students go ahead and understand a combination prepare for their accommodations meeting where they need to go ahead and discuss, you know, what it is that they’re seeking and why they’re seeking that. Um, and so, um, often I do want to say one more thing we’re talking about parents. So there’s something in college called FERPA, I’m not actually sure the acronym acronym stands for, but it’s essentially, um, the educational privacy rights of the students and another big, you know, shock to a lot of families, and parents in particular, is that parents don’t receive information from colleges. They don’t receive the grades they don’t receive, you know, if there’s a notification that you’re on academic probation because protects the student’s right to educational privacy. So there’s some ability, um, to go ahead and have students if they’re willing to waive their rights regarding ferpa so that parents can get some more information directly on their own beyond what the student, um, you know, shares directly.
FRANCES ( 00:05:07): Right. And so it’s a student gets everything. I know. That’s hard for parents because they’ve been in control so long. And a lot of times, parents will say, but I’m paying the bill,
SCOT( 00:05:17): right? So that’s like a great point. Okay. And so I think, and then you have on the opposite, some, you know, students who go ahead and say, you know, leave me alone, you know, I’m completely independent now. Right? And they maybe have accommodations. They say I’m not using those anymore. Right. Um, and so I do, I think, well, it does actually rest with the student. You need, you know, a collaborative way that you work together as a family. And, you know, because the parents are the ones that are typically paying the parents. I like to, um, say, I think it’s helpful for parents to give parameters to the students and then, you know, the student needs to take the lead. So the parameter maybe I’m not comfortable with you as a student of mine, child, flying all the way, you know, across the country for college and being three hours at an airport. Okay? Because, um, when you’ve needed some support it’s needed to be much faster than that and the student may not like that. I actually see that frequently, you know, but in that regard the parents are the ones paying but then the student really needs to be the one to go ahead and take the lead. And while you’re still in high school is a really good time to go ahead and start um gradually showing more independence. Um And I actually I’m curious what you think about this. Okay. Um But I actually so I do a college readiness assessment um as part of my work where you know, I look at the academics. Yes. But the two big areas um that is needed for college success that’s typically different than high school is your independence, your level of and you’re living um skills, life skills as well as your self advocacy. So I look at where a student is with regards to academics, you know, self advocacy, independence and social emotional and create a plan for them of what do they need to work on before they go to college? And what type of support um would be beneficial whether it’s offered by a school or whether it’s private support that’s brought in. And so here’s where I’d love your um feedback is I typically will suggest that you fade out. The accommodations from your IEP or 504 plan in the second semester of your senior year because you’re not going to go ahead. The ones that you’re not gonna get in college. Okay. Something like extended time for tests. You if you have the proper documentation very common you’ll get that in college. Okay. The big one that um is very atypical in College. That is um a big shock a lot of times to families and makes the student anxious. And that’s why I need to work on it earlier. Is that there’s not extra time for assignments. So if you’re used to you know going ahead and saying I didn’t finish it’s due tomorrow I can 50% extra alternative in two days. So because that doesn’t exist. Um with every everything I say there’s exceptions. Okay but because it just doesn’t exist um You know going ahead and fading that out I think is a good idea in the second semester.
FRANCES ( 00:08:29): Yeah. I can see where that could be helpful depending on the child because they’re not going to get it in college. And it’s kind of like you want to prepare your child to be independent and not need it. Um I don’t think there’s a problem with that. I mean I think that’s a good idea and I want to go back to something you said about that you do the assessment to see on the independence. I love that. And I think like Children students need to do that in like 10th grade when they’re applying for colleges and the reason I say that is because the transition part of the IEP. It’s usually I mean it’s the worst. It’s look at four year colleges where from your assessment the independence goals that should be on the IEP and the transition part. And the school should be helping the child with those goals to be able to do the transition,
SCOT( 00:9:20): right? So it’s interesting you say that okay because what I see with my work are um there are some families that are starting early you know in 10th grade as you’re saying because there will be a lot of changes happening. Um It’s something also to know the skills that you need to go ahead and build in terms of like let’s just say um not IEP Specific but many students have a hard time getting up in the morning okay? Most teens do right? But like the parents waking you up every day or pounding on your door you know to go ahead and make sure that you’re up um you’re not gonna get that in college. So those are types of skills that you know working with a student um and earlier is important. So I see that okay and I think ideally that’s what you want but I also see people who start the process very very late because they’re concerned. Um You know I’m not sure whether it’s the student or it’s the parents the family, everyone whether the student can go to college because of some of the the jump up in skills that you need, so they don’t know and they wait. So I’ve actually um started with some students, so if they’re seniors right now in high school, you can still go ahead and apply to college and if you’ve done nothing, you know, I’ve actually um worked with students that this is not advised, okay, not advised, but um but I started, you know, who wanted to go to um fairly Academically competitive schools and had some of the skill set to do that, but they can’t start till Christmas week and most people think of applications that are due January or um in the beginning of January, sometimes January 15 and you can apply early for different schools starting in November. Um but so you still can do it, your options may be more limited. Um so it’s never really too late, but the disclaimer is don’t wait as, you know, check it out
FRANCES ( 00:11:21): and that’s, I mean part of the reason I was excited to have you on the show is because I think people don’t know you exist,
SCOT( 00:11:28): that’s correct.
FRANCES ( 00:11:29): You know, people don’t know, there’s somebody that can help me with this process and his parents, you know, Children don’t come with, you know, instruction manuals and Children change on their parents every single day and every year, it’s something different and so one of the things I like to do with my law firm is just put it out there saying, look, you don’t have to do it all alone. We have people in the community that can support you through this process.
SCOT( 00:11:56): Right? And so, I mean, I appreciate that. So, you know, my work is super specialized and so, um, I work all around the country, I think right now, I supporting, I like to say support, not help, um supporting students. And I think 13 states and, and you know, that has varied. Um, but you can I can support a student and family for a couple of months to understand the process to several years, you know, because I actually, in addition to helping with the application process, I do some work around transition for people in college and some non academic support for students once they’re in college, because it’s often, um it’s the softer skills that can be very challenging and the type of support that exists in college often um is focused, you know, on the academics because that’s why people are there. But just to your point of, people don’t know about me, almost all referrals, word of mouth, and it’s really fascinating because it may come from a therapist, you know, I get a call that says so, and so therapist, in, you know, Monterey California, you know, suggested I call you and I don’t know who that person actually is. You know, right eye from various schools. I have some relationships with schools that are private schools that focus on learning differences around the country. I do a lot of presentations because not everybody can afford the supports, right? That I might provide. And so I really believe in the importance of giving back and it is very confusing for a lot of people. Um Plus I do want to just say, I’m not sure if I share this with you, but I live this as a parent every day as well. Okay. Um you know, I have two Children who are in college, one who has some significant disabilities. Um and then actually I’m gonna switch gears for one second if this is okay. And just so my daughter um receive some accommodations in college and she did not have an IEP in high school. Okay. And there’s several students that I have that might have a late diagnosis or let’s say this is the reason why people hire you Frances right there having challenges with the school system of an agreement of what is needed. So, So um I’ve supported numerous students that had very minimal support, let’s say through a 504 plan um or had nothing. And they’re able to get some accommodations in college because they may one have new um new documentation or also mental health is a really big, really big reason and it’s the biggest growth of accommodations in um college. And so the type of documentation you need for mental health challenges is different than if someone is dyslexic or you know, someone is on the nonsense spectrum.
FRANCES ( 00:14:59): You must have been reading my mind because my next question was gonna be like, do you help Children that are that do not have IEPs and do not have 504 plans. So if parents have a child just going to college, can you work with them as well?
SCOT( 00:15:13): Yes. So here’s what I do is part of that assessment that I said, um you know, I get to know the student, the family, I speak to people who know the student, non family members to get how the student, you know, um is in different settings. And I look at what documentation they have um whether they have diagnoses, whether they believe those diagnoses or not. And then, you know, well I cannot guarantee any type of accommodations. Um I’ll go ahead and I’ll say, you know, this is like very likely not sufficient. Um and if you have none, it’s what could you use and you know, as I’m sure, you know, and you probably have guests guessing related to this or we spoke about neuro sykes, which you know, which are very expensive um to do. And by the way, colleges do not pay for, they don’t have to pay for the testing. Unlike um in high school. So if you want some sort of support, I speak with the family about, what does that mean? Let’s talk about the type of support that you could possibly get and then, you know, what would you need to do in order to go ahead and get documentation for specific learning difference. Um Sometimes it’s actually easier if a student, you know, so many people have co occurring challenges. So if you have a learning difference and you have a mental health issue um for mental health again, every school is different. Disclaimer on the bottom here. But um if you have a mental health issue, usually the documentation is um some type of an evaluation from a mental health provider within the last six months. While the documentation um psycho, educational evaluation, a neuro psych um historically has been like within three years, uh if you had it within three years, but some schools are trying to be, many colleges are trying to be more flexible with that, it depends. Um So if you don’t have some doctor, let’s just go ahead. I’m gonna. Maybe this is too detailed for this, but I think it’s like important. So say you’re somebody who has um documented um like learning differences around reading and you also have significant anxiety. Okay, so an accommodation um such as extra time, 50% time on exams. So you probably get that right for the learning difference. Okay. Because you’re reading um if you don’t have the actual documentation required for the reading diagnosis, that’s current and you know, you don’t want to pay $11,000. I mean to get the documentation always helpful I think to understand about who you are and how you learn okay. But um if you have anxiety and you can show through a mental health professional that you have anxiety very common. Also to get um you know extended time on tests. So as a result you might be able to receive the same accommodation with different type of documentation. So that’s what I would counsel a family on um as part of it.
FRANCES ( 00:18:24): And it’s so so again um This well this I say all the time like when you need to talk to an attorney about the I. E. P. Process. And I always say the earlier the better. Why the same for you. The earlier the better. Because you can help set the stage that the child has everything they need. So they start college with the accommodations where parents wait until the child’s gotten in and then contact you. It might be a few months until they get all of the dock documentation and your child’s already gone through a semester before they get the accommodations?
SCOT( 00:18:56): Right? Um So it’s definitely true, right? And you know I um addressing that right now. Okay Families thinking about, do they want accommodation to the Children want they want the Children to have accommodations? Um I’m gonna say there’s a big caveat just going back to what we said before about the students independence because they could all be put in place and you do all the stuff that you said you know in order to go ahead and have it early and make sure it’s in place before you start on day one. But the student has to be the one who wants to use it um and access those accommodations. And so you know there’s I’m sure you see with your work to their students um and you work really hard for clients. You got the accommodations and then they don’t want to use them right? Um It’s much more likely to happen I think in college because um there’s not like for example you know an annual I. E. P. Meeting. You don’t have that. Um Actually students not only need to take a lead, they often need to um actually renew their accommodations every semester. And it’s not it’s not like a whole full IE. Meeting where there’s you know 10 people in the room and you know everything that you know typically happens general ed teacher. You know all sorts of things. So often it’s going to the disability services or accessibility service and saying yes I want to continue these. And so it becomes very much on the student and then also is very much an executive functioning issue for students who have challenges with time management organization because if they don’t go back and say hey I want to use these accommodations again and fill out whatever paperwork they’re going to start the second semester and they are not going to have their accommodations in place. Um, so that’s, you know, something that somebody needs to be counseled on and you know, potentially, um, you know, help support them to put reminders. One other thing that’s, that’s sort of along those lines that is like very surprising to people is so one accommodation, right? Very common is um, if there’s a lot of distractions in high school, you can go take an exam in a quiet room. Right? So, um, obviously every school is different, but most, um, students I’ve spoken to, you know, they show up in the regular class, so there’s attendance and then whoever is taking the exam and quiet goes together and leaves and goes to a separate room. So historically in college it doesn’t work that way. Um, you know, there might be another building that you go to for the exam and so you have to on your own go there. But um, what’s more, um, really a lot more independence is in some schools, you have to contact the disability services or accessibility services a week or two weeks in advance of your exam to say that you want to go ahead and use that accommodation. Um, so that they can have it set up for you to be somewhere. And so, um, if you forget to do that, you literally cannot just show up and say, this is just too noisy for me. I’m very anxious. I can’t you know I need to go somewhere else. It’s sorry because you did not go ahead and request the accommodation a week ago. Um So again a lot more planning that’s that’s needed in order to
FRANCES ( 00:22:23): write because colleges don’t have like under IDEA Schools are required. They have the child find law to find the Children that need the accommodations and and be there and put it out there but colleges have no obligations whatsoever other than ADA But they also don’t have to go make sure you’re using it and make sure you have it. It just needs to be available
SCOT( 00:22:46): for use, correct. Um Now I will say though that there are some types of support you can get in college that you can’t get in high school right? Because some of the stuff that we’ve just been talking about, you know to some people who are listening watching can maybe be very anxiety producing right thinking about supports um that the student currently gets but for example you can get an accommodation with the proper documentation that’s approved by the school disclaimer. Um That is you can get priority registration for your courses. Okay? And so as an example you can’t just say I have A. D. H. D. I need this. You actually have to show um and explain what’s the gonna hate this functional limitation having that. So um you could maybe say you know what I can’t take three classes in a row because um I don’t have the focus for that or I take medication that makes me you know go to sleep at night and then I’m very groggy in the morning. So I can’t take classes that start before 10 a.m. And you know particularly for freshman people hear about the eight a.m. Class. One of my kids has an eight AM class now and struggle for him to get there this morning. Okay? But um so you can go ahead and get that as an accommodation which super helpful and um sort of a secondary thing. Hopefully no one’s listening from the yes they’re listening for from the ADA. I mean office okay that accessibility office but it’s also a good way for like classes that are super popular that people want to get into. It’s an added benefit. You know they can sign up for some of those you know So um there’s also residential support um depending on disability is the residential support. Mostly it’s not that someone’s coming to check in on you and your room organized. It’s mostly um through accommodations is you can get potentially a single room or a private bathroom um something like that now you need. Yeah but you but it makes sense but the college is not responsible for paying the difference between a single and a double. Okay so you have that and I have a whole workshop on the hidden costs um for students with disabilities to go to college because there’s a lot of things that, you know, the supports are there um at the school of privately, but you may need to pay for some of them. Um Anyway, there’s there’s also supports that all students can get um not specific uh to someone with disabilities, like for example, you know, the vast, vast majority of colleges offer free tutoring. Now the tutoring um is done typically by peers. You know, they’re someone upperclassmen who took the class, you know, did great in the class, really likes the subject matter and then so they’re tutoring, you know, someone who’s under what does have been underclassmen because you can get the tutoring, you know, throughout. Um So potentially really helpful. Um However with that said they’re not taught about learning differences and so if you’re someone who’s dyslexic, having a peer tutor may not be that helpful for you because right, the way they’re going to teach, it is not the way that you learn best, and so you still may end up needing a private tutor. Um But some schools do have, you know, a limited number of tutors that are learning specialist professionals and you you need to ask um typically um either counsel people or on their behalf, I may need to reach out to seven different departments um Again very different than high school. You know it’s not you go to this one place um It’s not centralized and you know the starting place is disability services but they often just deal with the accommodations um and they can guide you to other campus resources but it’s not where they take place.
FRANCES ( 00:27:04): Got it and I want to focus on something. Um You keep saying different colleges you know the disclaimer like not all colleges and so forth. Do you help families find the best fit of the colleges that will provide the accommodations that the student might need?
SCOT( 00:27:20): Oh that’s a big part of what I do. Okay. So um with that said the actual formal accommodations um if someone qualifies you know they’re pretty much the same in each school. Okay. Um However um I have This this chart that I show where there’s like about 4000 colleges in the country. Okay? And so there’s a college for you most likely. Um right and um if we picture like um sort of a line like a bar graph on the left side or colleges that only give you what’s required by the ADA Okay. And most people I would say all the people that I support um that is not gonna be a good fit college for them not because just what they don’t what they’ll get which they’ll get what they’re required to by the law but you know I think it gives off that the school is very likely. Um not the culture that they want, right? The school does not have, it’s not inclusive, it’s not empowering to people with with disabilities, you know? And then on the other end of the spectrum there are a few schools in the country that are specifically only for students who are neuro diverse. Um And then, you know, there’s a gradual increase from a D. A. Only to you know, separate schools for colleges, but for people of neuro diverse and um what I help people do is figure out what is it that they need and willing to use? Okay like again if you’re not the students not willing to use it, I’ll tell you do not go get the neuro psych done because um right, like you paid a lot of money and it’s good to know, but is the student the student can use it or your child’s gonna use it so um and then I’ll let them know and I do outreach to these different departments to say, okay many students that I particularly support have social challenges so I will help individuals develop a social plan and you know, I’ll figure out the extent of um depend how much people want, but typically it’s pretty deep of where are the best social opportunities at these schools for me, you know, for a lot of people it might be a club um or an activity, but just because it says like there’s like say you’re really into um I don’t know, cooking. I really like to cook okay for another show I tried out for master chef one time.
FRANCES ( 00:29:57): Okay.
SCOT( 00:30:02): Alright, alright. Off camera conversation. Um but anyway, like it may look fabulous that there’s this cooking club that you’re really interested in, but how many people are involved? Okay. You know, like right now, particularly for students um past few years and students, you know, playing this year and probably next year, these clubs were really affected by covid and, you know, in some cases they had to stop completely because certain clubs you can’t do virtually and with student leadership, you know, it could have been a really popular club, the cooking club, but now it’s just rebuilding and so um I help students um, you know, again, with their leader, what they see themselves doing understand whether the social life is on campus where off campus it is um to try to help them figure out, you know, if that’s something that they’re seeking, which most students are, how’s the best way, you know, for them to sort of jump right in because the first semester, um research has shown that like people’s connection to their school, the first semester and that transition really affects whether people stay at school or not, you know? Um Unfortunately the retention and graduation rates of students with disabilities is a lot lower than individuals. Um you know, that that do not have disabilities and a lot of it’s because, you know, people don’t know, which is why it’s great to be able to talk here today because they just go somewhere without, you know, fully understanding what’s available or not. Or the schools don’t have the supports or they’re not implementing them. Um, the way they should or there’s not enough support. So, um, really the transition period, um, is really very important
FRANCES ( 00:31:53): right now. Yeah, it’s so true. The social aspect. And also, I know recently I’ve been seeing a lot more colleges have for the neuro diverse
SCOT( 00:32:03): Children have
FRANCES ( 00:32:04): special programming and so forth and they’re starting to be more accepting.
SCOT( 00:32:08): Right? So, um, not everyone who’s neuro diverse needs a neuro diverse program. Okay. Now, um, you know, that’s part of an assessment that I do is, right. So maybe you have an autism diagnosis, but that could mean that you go somewhere and you know, potentially have no accommodations, but you want some help around social skills, Right. And social planning. That’s it. It’s not part of accommodations, um, to, you know, it would be beneficial to go to a school that offers, um, say an autism support program. There’s about 80, some odd schools in the country that have autism support programs and what they are because a lot of people don’t understand this. Um, I think it’s important if I could just to share because some people think they do way more than they do and other people that um, are concerned about stigma. Um, cut them off without really knowing what they do. So students who are in autism support programs, um, they’re typically four year universities and you’re a regular matriculated student and it’s extra support. Um, anywhere typically from 2-5 hours a week. Okay. And um, does that mean you think that’s a lot or not?
FRANCES ( 00:33:27): No. Just that they’re that they’re doing that, that they’re giving that much support?
SCOT( 00:33:31): Well, well, a couple things. One for most of them you pay okay. Um, some you don’t, but um, there is one school in California, I know that, you know, a parent, um, was really grateful and the student obviously to graduated, so they made a large donation. So in that school you don’t play because it’s under it. Yeah, super nice and really helpful. Um, but typically, so someone has five. Our program is five hours of support. You’re probably gonna have like one hour of one on one coaching. Um, which for some people or many people is not enough. So that may need to be supplemented. Right? So I would look and say based on your particular situation Frances, is that enough or you can supplement with a private coach, there’s a variety of things you can do. Then, you know, there’s, um, let’s say again, we’re talking five hours two hours. That is a, um, some sort of skill based workshop, maybe it’s about time management. Um, and then you know some programs, not all but some programs offer some social opportunities and they organize, you know going out to the moon movies are going to a restaurant and some people really like taking advantage of that. Um You know people who are introverts, um people who like that, it’s just you just show up, you pay the $15 to go to the movies. You don’t organize any of it. And there’s some other people that, you know, they may want some of the coaching support from the autism support program but they don’t want that for their social outreach and social life. So um and then some of them have um study halls where not mandatory but people are encouraged to go um There’s not a tutor there but there may be somebody to help people sort of get started with um executive functioning around doing the school work. So those programs are growing um they’re definitely growing around the country and um hopefully I think you know right now um colleges, my understanding is often see it as it costs them money to have to deliver these extra um services. However as more data is available, you know, um it’s really encouraging that in programs um Typically the students that are participating in those programs have higher graduation rates than students that are not, you know higher retention rates. Um They also just from a monetary standpoint of course it’s different but more likely to potentially stay on campus and give the university actually more revenue. Um someone I know who, who does some work um with me um Just also just on his own, you know, helping universities set up some programs, you know, actually talk to them that it’s, it’s not only good for society and it’s good for students, but it’s actually a good business decision as well. So hopefully more, more colleges will see that. Yeah,
FRANCES ( 00:36:33): like my dad said cost benefit analysis, right? You know, spend a couple $100 here and it could increase your revenue by thousands, you know, and trying to figure out what, what it works. Um And it’s interesting you say that some schools have the program, but kids don’t assess it um access it, I like to say, but even if you don’t want to access it, it’s good to go to that school anyway because you know, the school is more open,
SCOT( 00:37:05): Good point. Okay. And I think that’s like not a black and white issue, but um figuring out as part of the process when you’re going to college is how um inclusive does the community, you know, seem to be um Obviously they are making a commitment as a school that they are having a program, you know, it made Gary by professor because a lot of stuff ultimately is what the professor wants to do of, you know, unfortunately, um how they respond to individuals that are their students. Um But I do agree with with you. You know, another thing that I really like for students um That I support is looking at something that again, not part of an I. E. P. Right? But a way for in college um is a first year experience. Um So you know, it’s kind of the way it sounds um meaning that, you know, every school has some sort of an orientation. And those orientations, you know, it could be two days, that could be four days. But some school schools turn that orientation into a much bigger experience, hence first year experience. So um really helping people transition to college a lot is focused on the academics, but some social residential. So maybe you’re in an orientation with a cohort of people from your dorm and there’s a peer leader. And that cheerleader in school they stay with you for for the entire first semester and have like meetings every week, you know, in your dorm. How’s everyone doing things are going? Some you know, team building activities. Um So schools like that often um are very helpful for people who need some extra support. Um Some schools, you know, I always check this as well. Um offer pre orientations early orientations. Some actually do offer them for individuals who are registered with um disability services. And some might be, you know, your interest in community service out to adventure your first gen students. And that’s a really good way for people to, you know, get connected to the school meet a small group of people before they start. You know what as I said that and I’m looking at you about the child. Find it just made me think that what we haven’t said is that the student needs to be the one to go register with disability services or accessibility services. Um The school is not gonna find you. Okay. So when schools tell you stats, um actually, what I often do is, you know, I’ll call up the school and I’ll ask them how many students are registered with a specific disability to get a sense of perhaps um does the school have a lot of experience with students that more than, you know, black and white. This is the accommodation, but more of the gray areas, you know, and um a lot of times people are not aware of that students and families that they have to go register and then to your point earlier, by the time they understand it well then they’ve already lost time. You know, it will take time to then get it going um share the information with your professors and you could have lost a whole semester um or semester super difficult, you know, because you didn’t know about some of the ways you can get support. Okay,
FRANCES ( 00:40:39): So that brings me to, I just realized the time and wow, it was so easy talking to you like it was just
SCOT( 00:40:44): like
FRANCES ( 00:40:46): no it’s fine, it’s I think it’s such valuable information for parents, you know that we know that that there’s stuff out there to help and there’s people out there to help us find the supports we need. So how do people get in touch with you? What do they do, do you do consultations? Like how does the process work?
SCOT( 00:41:04): sure. Um so I actually offer free consultation, so that’s typically like 30 minutes um and typically um no actually started by saying what is it that you want to accomplish and learn from this and I learned more information um and I will never like in a consultation recommend to school to someone because that’s not fair in terms of I don’t know the student enough, it’s not fair to obviously my own work um and then I’ll see if I think um that I’m a good fit or not. And then um you know people again can work with me choose to work with me for a segment such as please help us by doing a college readiness assessment or everything through, you know, the search, the applications, the accommodations, the transition to college. And so um you can contact me um best way is like you can sign up for a um re consultation at my website which is actually um add as an education redefinEdRedefined dot com um and I can give a phone number but it’s probably better, right? Just
FRANCES ( 00:42:15): no just yeah so that we’ll have the links below um to everything. But this was so awesome thank you so much because I even learned a lot like I knew you what you did but getting into those details of how supportive you could be so important I think
SCOT( 00:42:29): oh thanks I really appreciate it and you know I hope I provided advice that’s helpful to people and um to let them know that there is you know a lot of solutions that are out there um And you might need to be educated about it because as you said it doesn’t just you’re not naturally hearing about it
FRANCES ( 00:42:49): right?
SCOT( 00:42:49): Not that much in the detail, the level of detail that you need to know
FRANCES ( 00:42:52): exactly all trying to figure it out. Thank you so much and thank you all for listening to Stress-Free IEPTM. Hopefully I will see you again.
VOICEOVER ( 00:43:04): You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEPTM with your host Frances Shefter. Remember you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through ShefterLaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments and sharing the show with others through Youtube, Linkedin, Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google podcasts, Stitcher and more
Stress-Free IEP with Frances Shefter and Scot Marken (Video Podcast)
In this episode of Stress-Free IEPTM, Frances speaks with Scot Marken, Founder and CEO of EdRedefined. Scot specializes in supporting individuals with disabilities with a focus on autism, ADHD, mental health issues and learning differences. He helps them plan life after high school.
Learn more about EdRedefined
Connect with Scot Marken on Linkedin
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Stress-Free IEPTM:
Frances Shefter is an Education Attorney and Advocate who is committed to helping her clients have a Stress-Free IEP experience. In each podcast, Frances interviews inspiring people to share information, educate you, empower you and help you get the knowledge you need.
Watch more episodes of Stress-Free TM on YouTube.
Connect and learn more from your host, Frances Shefter:
VOICEOVER ( 00:00:00): Welcome to Stress-Free IEPTM — You do not need to do it all alone — with your host Frances Shefter, Principal of Shefter Law. She streams a show live on Facebook. Get more details and catch prior episodes at www.ShefterLaw.com. The Stress-Free IEPTM video podcast is also posted on Youtube and LinkedIn and you can listen to episodes through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, Stitcher and more. Now, here’s the host of Stress-Free IEPTM, Frances Shefter.
FRANCES ( 00:00:43): Good afternoon and welcome to the show, everybody. I’m so excited to introduce my next guest on our show, Scot Marken from EdRedefined and I’m so excited because this is a little bit different than we usually do. Usually I focus on IEPs. But you’re not on IEPs as much your more. Well I’ll let you introduce yourself and let us know what you do, Scot.
SCOT( 00:01:07): Sure. Thanks Frances for inviting me. So I’m Scot Markon and I actually specialize in supporting individuals with disabilities with a focus on autism, ADHD, mental health issues and learning differences with post-high school plans and that may be college it may be a gap year might be a combination and so I do a lot of work with IEPs as part of understanding students um and helping them understand and their families understand what is available in terms of support in college and what is not available and what’s the type of process that you go through.
FRANCES ( 00:01:48): Right. And it’s interesting you say that with IEPs Because IEP is in IDEA, which just covers up through someone’s 21st 22nd birthday. Um So what do you do if a student has an IEP and they’re getting ready to go to college? What can they do to get any of the services or supports that they had in high school?
SCOT( 00:02:9): Sure. So that’s a great and a really important question. So the first thing is that many people think um parents sometimes um school administrators um honestly think that your IEP automatically transfers over to college. Okay. And it does not. Um And as you have just brought up the IDEA. The main law that governs accommodations for students in college is related to the ADA, the American with Disabilities Act and that is about access to services. So essentially um there’s a variety of ways that you can get support in college. Most people tend to think of accommodations because if they have an IEP or they have a 504 plan right they get accommodations. Um And that is one main way but not the only way in college. And essentially after you are accepted to college and you decide to commit to one school then you would go reach out to the accessibility services office or disability services office and pursue accommodations and you need to show various documentation, um, have meetings to go ahead and discuss what is, I don’t love this term, But what’s the functional limitation of your disabilities on your education? And one of the big differences um, that I think you maybe just heard me say is you need to go do it. Okay. Um, and that’s very different right? Than what happens in the K through 12 setting you need to write
FRANCES ( 00:03:43): and you is the student not the parents.
SCOT( 00:03:46): Right? So that’s a really good point. Okay? So sometimes at the beginning, um, you know, parents are certainly involved. Okay. Um, however, it’s best, you know, for the students, long term success for this. Students to be as independent as possible in the process. You know, I do help students go ahead and understand a combination prepare for their accommodations meeting where they need to go ahead and discuss, you know, what it is that they’re seeking and why they’re seeking that. Um, and so, um, often I do want to say one more thing we’re talking about parents. So there’s something in college called FERPA, I’m not actually sure the acronym acronym stands for, but it’s essentially, um, the educational privacy rights of the students and another big, you know, shock to a lot of families, and parents in particular, is that parents don’t receive information from colleges. They don’t receive the grades they don’t receive, you know, if there’s a notification that you’re on academic probation because protects the student’s right to educational privacy. So there’s some ability, um, to go ahead and have students if they’re willing to waive their rights regarding ferpa so that parents can get some more information directly on their own beyond what the student, um, you know, shares directly.
FRANCES ( 00:05:07): Right. And so it’s a student gets everything. I know. That’s hard for parents because they’ve been in control so long. And a lot of times, parents will say, but I’m paying the bill,
SCOT( 00:05:17): right? So that’s like a great point. Okay. And so I think, and then you have on the opposite, some, you know, students who go ahead and say, you know, leave me alone, you know, I’m completely independent now. Right? And they maybe have accommodations. They say I’m not using those anymore. Right. Um, and so I do, I think, well, it does actually rest with the student. You need, you know, a collaborative way that you work together as a family. And, you know, because the parents are the ones that are typically paying the parents. I like to, um, say, I think it’s helpful for parents to give parameters to the students and then, you know, the student needs to take the lead. So the parameter maybe I’m not comfortable with you as a student of mine, child, flying all the way, you know, across the country for college and being three hours at an airport. Okay? Because, um, when you’ve needed some support it’s needed to be much faster than that and the student may not like that. I actually see that frequently, you know, but in that regard the parents are the ones paying but then the student really needs to be the one to go ahead and take the lead. And while you’re still in high school is a really good time to go ahead and start um gradually showing more independence. Um And I actually I’m curious what you think about this. Okay. Um But I actually so I do a college readiness assessment um as part of my work where you know, I look at the academics. Yes. But the two big areas um that is needed for college success that’s typically different than high school is your independence, your level of and you’re living um skills, life skills as well as your self advocacy. So I look at where a student is with regards to academics, you know, self advocacy, independence and social emotional and create a plan for them of what do they need to work on before they go to college? And what type of support um would be beneficial whether it’s offered by a school or whether it’s private support that’s brought in. And so here’s where I’d love your um feedback is I typically will suggest that you fade out. The accommodations from your IEP or 504 plan in the second semester of your senior year because you’re not going to go ahead. The ones that you’re not gonna get in college. Okay. Something like extended time for tests. You if you have the proper documentation very common you’ll get that in college. Okay. The big one that um is very atypical in College. That is um a big shock a lot of times to families and makes the student anxious. And that’s why I need to work on it earlier. Is that there’s not extra time for assignments. So if you’re used to you know going ahead and saying I didn’t finish it’s due tomorrow I can 50% extra alternative in two days. So because that doesn’t exist. Um with every everything I say there’s exceptions. Okay but because it just doesn’t exist um You know going ahead and fading that out I think is a good idea in the second semester.
FRANCES ( 00:08:29): Yeah. I can see where that could be helpful depending on the child because they’re not going to get it in college. And it’s kind of like you want to prepare your child to be independent and not need it. Um I don’t think there’s a problem with that. I mean I think that’s a good idea and I want to go back to something you said about that you do the assessment to see on the independence. I love that. And I think like Children students need to do that in like 10th grade when they’re applying for colleges and the reason I say that is because the transition part of the IEP. It’s usually I mean it’s the worst. It’s look at four year colleges where from your assessment the independence goals that should be on the IEP and the transition part. And the school should be helping the child with those goals to be able to do the transition,
SCOT( 00:9:20): right? So it’s interesting you say that okay because what I see with my work are um there are some families that are starting early you know in 10th grade as you’re saying because there will be a lot of changes happening. Um It’s something also to know the skills that you need to go ahead and build in terms of like let’s just say um not IEP Specific but many students have a hard time getting up in the morning okay? Most teens do right? But like the parents waking you up every day or pounding on your door you know to go ahead and make sure that you’re up um you’re not gonna get that in college. So those are types of skills that you know working with a student um and earlier is important. So I see that okay and I think ideally that’s what you want but I also see people who start the process very very late because they’re concerned. Um You know I’m not sure whether it’s the student or it’s the parents the family, everyone whether the student can go to college because of some of the the jump up in skills that you need, so they don’t know and they wait. So I’ve actually um started with some students, so if they’re seniors right now in high school, you can still go ahead and apply to college and if you’ve done nothing, you know, I’ve actually um worked with students that this is not advised, okay, not advised, but um but I started, you know, who wanted to go to um fairly Academically competitive schools and had some of the skill set to do that, but they can’t start till Christmas week and most people think of applications that are due January or um in the beginning of January, sometimes January 15 and you can apply early for different schools starting in November. Um but so you still can do it, your options may be more limited. Um so it’s never really too late, but the disclaimer is don’t wait as, you know, check it out
FRANCES ( 00:11:21): and that’s, I mean part of the reason I was excited to have you on the show is because I think people don’t know you exist,
SCOT( 00:11:28): that’s correct.
FRANCES ( 00:11:29): You know, people don’t know, there’s somebody that can help me with this process and his parents, you know, Children don’t come with, you know, instruction manuals and Children change on their parents every single day and every year, it’s something different and so one of the things I like to do with my law firm is just put it out there saying, look, you don’t have to do it all alone. We have people in the community that can support you through this process.
SCOT( 00:11:56): Right? And so, I mean, I appreciate that. So, you know, my work is super specialized and so, um, I work all around the country, I think right now, I supporting, I like to say support, not help, um supporting students. And I think 13 states and, and you know, that has varied. Um, but you can I can support a student and family for a couple of months to understand the process to several years, you know, because I actually, in addition to helping with the application process, I do some work around transition for people in college and some non academic support for students once they’re in college, because it’s often, um it’s the softer skills that can be very challenging and the type of support that exists in college often um is focused, you know, on the academics because that’s why people are there. But just to your point of, people don’t know about me, almost all referrals, word of mouth, and it’s really fascinating because it may come from a therapist, you know, I get a call that says so, and so therapist, in, you know, Monterey California, you know, suggested I call you and I don’t know who that person actually is. You know, right eye from various schools. I have some relationships with schools that are private schools that focus on learning differences around the country. I do a lot of presentations because not everybody can afford the supports, right? That I might provide. And so I really believe in the importance of giving back and it is very confusing for a lot of people. Um Plus I do want to just say, I’m not sure if I share this with you, but I live this as a parent every day as well. Okay. Um you know, I have two Children who are in college, one who has some significant disabilities. Um and then actually I’m gonna switch gears for one second if this is okay. And just so my daughter um receive some accommodations in college and she did not have an IEP in high school. Okay. And there’s several students that I have that might have a late diagnosis or let’s say this is the reason why people hire you Frances right there having challenges with the school system of an agreement of what is needed. So, So um I’ve supported numerous students that had very minimal support, let’s say through a 504 plan um or had nothing. And they’re able to get some accommodations in college because they may one have new um new documentation or also mental health is a really big, really big reason and it’s the biggest growth of accommodations in um college. And so the type of documentation you need for mental health challenges is different than if someone is dyslexic or you know, someone is on the nonsense spectrum.
FRANCES ( 00:14:59): You must have been reading my mind because my next question was gonna be like, do you help Children that are that do not have IEPs and do not have 504 plans. So if parents have a child just going to college, can you work with them as well?
SCOT( 00:15:13): Yes. So here’s what I do is part of that assessment that I said, um you know, I get to know the student, the family, I speak to people who know the student, non family members to get how the student, you know, um is in different settings. And I look at what documentation they have um whether they have diagnoses, whether they believe those diagnoses or not. And then, you know, well I cannot guarantee any type of accommodations. Um I’ll go ahead and I’ll say, you know, this is like very likely not sufficient. Um and if you have none, it’s what could you use and you know, as I’m sure, you know, and you probably have guests guessing related to this or we spoke about neuro sykes, which you know, which are very expensive um to do. And by the way, colleges do not pay for, they don’t have to pay for the testing. Unlike um in high school. So if you want some sort of support, I speak with the family about, what does that mean? Let’s talk about the type of support that you could possibly get and then, you know, what would you need to do in order to go ahead and get documentation for specific learning difference. Um Sometimes it’s actually easier if a student, you know, so many people have co occurring challenges. So if you have a learning difference and you have a mental health issue um for mental health again, every school is different. Disclaimer on the bottom here. But um if you have a mental health issue, usually the documentation is um some type of an evaluation from a mental health provider within the last six months. While the documentation um psycho, educational evaluation, a neuro psych um historically has been like within three years, uh if you had it within three years, but some schools are trying to be, many colleges are trying to be more flexible with that, it depends. Um So if you don’t have some doctor, let’s just go ahead. I’m gonna. Maybe this is too detailed for this, but I think it’s like important. So say you’re somebody who has um documented um like learning differences around reading and you also have significant anxiety. Okay, so an accommodation um such as extra time, 50% time on exams. So you probably get that right for the learning difference. Okay. Because you’re reading um if you don’t have the actual documentation required for the reading diagnosis, that’s current and you know, you don’t want to pay $11,000. I mean to get the documentation always helpful I think to understand about who you are and how you learn okay. But um if you have anxiety and you can show through a mental health professional that you have anxiety very common. Also to get um you know extended time on tests. So as a result you might be able to receive the same accommodation with different type of documentation. So that’s what I would counsel a family on um as part of it.
FRANCES ( 00:18:24): And it’s so so again um This well this I say all the time like when you need to talk to an attorney about the I. E. P. Process. And I always say the earlier the better. Why the same for you. The earlier the better. Because you can help set the stage that the child has everything they need. So they start college with the accommodations where parents wait until the child’s gotten in and then contact you. It might be a few months until they get all of the dock documentation and your child’s already gone through a semester before they get the accommodations?
SCOT( 00:18:56): Right? Um So it’s definitely true, right? And you know I um addressing that right now. Okay Families thinking about, do they want accommodation to the Children want they want the Children to have accommodations? Um I’m gonna say there’s a big caveat just going back to what we said before about the students independence because they could all be put in place and you do all the stuff that you said you know in order to go ahead and have it early and make sure it’s in place before you start on day one. But the student has to be the one who wants to use it um and access those accommodations. And so you know there’s I’m sure you see with your work to their students um and you work really hard for clients. You got the accommodations and then they don’t want to use them right? Um It’s much more likely to happen I think in college because um there’s not like for example you know an annual I. E. P. Meeting. You don’t have that. Um Actually students not only need to take a lead, they often need to um actually renew their accommodations every semester. And it’s not it’s not like a whole full IE. Meeting where there’s you know 10 people in the room and you know everything that you know typically happens general ed teacher. You know all sorts of things. So often it’s going to the disability services or accessibility service and saying yes I want to continue these. And so it becomes very much on the student and then also is very much an executive functioning issue for students who have challenges with time management organization because if they don’t go back and say hey I want to use these accommodations again and fill out whatever paperwork they’re going to start the second semester and they are not going to have their accommodations in place. Um, so that’s, you know, something that somebody needs to be counseled on and you know, potentially, um, you know, help support them to put reminders. One other thing that’s, that’s sort of along those lines that is like very surprising to people is so one accommodation, right? Very common is um, if there’s a lot of distractions in high school, you can go take an exam in a quiet room. Right? So, um, obviously every school is different, but most, um, students I’ve spoken to, you know, they show up in the regular class, so there’s attendance and then whoever is taking the exam and quiet goes together and leaves and goes to a separate room. So historically in college it doesn’t work that way. Um, you know, there might be another building that you go to for the exam and so you have to on your own go there. But um, what’s more, um, really a lot more independence is in some schools, you have to contact the disability services or accessibility services a week or two weeks in advance of your exam to say that you want to go ahead and use that accommodation. Um, so that they can have it set up for you to be somewhere. And so, um, if you forget to do that, you literally cannot just show up and say, this is just too noisy for me. I’m very anxious. I can’t you know I need to go somewhere else. It’s sorry because you did not go ahead and request the accommodation a week ago. Um So again a lot more planning that’s that’s needed in order to
FRANCES ( 00:22:23): write because colleges don’t have like under IDEA Schools are required. They have the child find law to find the Children that need the accommodations and and be there and put it out there but colleges have no obligations whatsoever other than ADA But they also don’t have to go make sure you’re using it and make sure you have it. It just needs to be available
SCOT( 00:22:46): for use, correct. Um Now I will say though that there are some types of support you can get in college that you can’t get in high school right? Because some of the stuff that we’ve just been talking about, you know to some people who are listening watching can maybe be very anxiety producing right thinking about supports um that the student currently gets but for example you can get an accommodation with the proper documentation that’s approved by the school disclaimer. Um That is you can get priority registration for your courses. Okay? And so as an example you can’t just say I have A. D. H. D. I need this. You actually have to show um and explain what’s the gonna hate this functional limitation having that. So um you could maybe say you know what I can’t take three classes in a row because um I don’t have the focus for that or I take medication that makes me you know go to sleep at night and then I’m very groggy in the morning. So I can’t take classes that start before 10 a.m. And you know particularly for freshman people hear about the eight a.m. Class. One of my kids has an eight AM class now and struggle for him to get there this morning. Okay? But um so you can go ahead and get that as an accommodation which super helpful and um sort of a secondary thing. Hopefully no one’s listening from the yes they’re listening for from the ADA. I mean office okay that accessibility office but it’s also a good way for like classes that are super popular that people want to get into. It’s an added benefit. You know they can sign up for some of those you know So um there’s also residential support um depending on disability is the residential support. Mostly it’s not that someone’s coming to check in on you and your room organized. It’s mostly um through accommodations is you can get potentially a single room or a private bathroom um something like that now you need. Yeah but you but it makes sense but the college is not responsible for paying the difference between a single and a double. Okay so you have that and I have a whole workshop on the hidden costs um for students with disabilities to go to college because there’s a lot of things that, you know, the supports are there um at the school of privately, but you may need to pay for some of them. Um Anyway, there’s there’s also supports that all students can get um not specific uh to someone with disabilities, like for example, you know, the vast, vast majority of colleges offer free tutoring. Now the tutoring um is done typically by peers. You know, they’re someone upperclassmen who took the class, you know, did great in the class, really likes the subject matter and then so they’re tutoring, you know, someone who’s under what does have been underclassmen because you can get the tutoring, you know, throughout. Um So potentially really helpful. Um However with that said they’re not taught about learning differences and so if you’re someone who’s dyslexic, having a peer tutor may not be that helpful for you because right, the way they’re going to teach, it is not the way that you learn best, and so you still may end up needing a private tutor. Um But some schools do have, you know, a limited number of tutors that are learning specialist professionals and you you need to ask um typically um either counsel people or on their behalf, I may need to reach out to seven different departments um Again very different than high school. You know it’s not you go to this one place um It’s not centralized and you know the starting place is disability services but they often just deal with the accommodations um and they can guide you to other campus resources but it’s not where they take place.
FRANCES ( 00:27:04): Got it and I want to focus on something. Um You keep saying different colleges you know the disclaimer like not all colleges and so forth. Do you help families find the best fit of the colleges that will provide the accommodations that the student might need?
SCOT( 00:27:20): Oh that’s a big part of what I do. Okay. So um with that said the actual formal accommodations um if someone qualifies you know they’re pretty much the same in each school. Okay. Um However um I have This this chart that I show where there’s like about 4000 colleges in the country. Okay? And so there’s a college for you most likely. Um right and um if we picture like um sort of a line like a bar graph on the left side or colleges that only give you what’s required by the ADA Okay. And most people I would say all the people that I support um that is not gonna be a good fit college for them not because just what they don’t what they’ll get which they’ll get what they’re required to by the law but you know I think it gives off that the school is very likely. Um not the culture that they want, right? The school does not have, it’s not inclusive, it’s not empowering to people with with disabilities, you know? And then on the other end of the spectrum there are a few schools in the country that are specifically only for students who are neuro diverse. Um And then, you know, there’s a gradual increase from a D. A. Only to you know, separate schools for colleges, but for people of neuro diverse and um what I help people do is figure out what is it that they need and willing to use? Okay like again if you’re not the students not willing to use it, I’ll tell you do not go get the neuro psych done because um right, like you paid a lot of money and it’s good to know, but is the student the student can use it or your child’s gonna use it so um and then I’ll let them know and I do outreach to these different departments to say, okay many students that I particularly support have social challenges so I will help individuals develop a social plan and you know, I’ll figure out the extent of um depend how much people want, but typically it’s pretty deep of where are the best social opportunities at these schools for me, you know, for a lot of people it might be a club um or an activity, but just because it says like there’s like say you’re really into um I don’t know, cooking. I really like to cook okay for another show I tried out for master chef one time.
FRANCES ( 00:29:57): Okay.
SCOT( 00:30:02): Alright, alright. Off camera conversation. Um but anyway, like it may look fabulous that there’s this cooking club that you’re really interested in, but how many people are involved? Okay. You know, like right now, particularly for students um past few years and students, you know, playing this year and probably next year, these clubs were really affected by covid and, you know, in some cases they had to stop completely because certain clubs you can’t do virtually and with student leadership, you know, it could have been a really popular club, the cooking club, but now it’s just rebuilding and so um I help students um, you know, again, with their leader, what they see themselves doing understand whether the social life is on campus where off campus it is um to try to help them figure out, you know, if that’s something that they’re seeking, which most students are, how’s the best way, you know, for them to sort of jump right in because the first semester, um research has shown that like people’s connection to their school, the first semester and that transition really affects whether people stay at school or not, you know? Um Unfortunately the retention and graduation rates of students with disabilities is a lot lower than individuals. Um you know, that that do not have disabilities and a lot of it’s because, you know, people don’t know, which is why it’s great to be able to talk here today because they just go somewhere without, you know, fully understanding what’s available or not. Or the schools don’t have the supports or they’re not implementing them. Um, the way they should or there’s not enough support. So, um, really the transition period, um, is really very important
FRANCES ( 00:31:53): right now. Yeah, it’s so true. The social aspect. And also, I know recently I’ve been seeing a lot more colleges have for the neuro diverse
SCOT( 00:32:03): Children have
FRANCES ( 00:32:04): special programming and so forth and they’re starting to be more accepting.
SCOT( 00:32:08): Right? So, um, not everyone who’s neuro diverse needs a neuro diverse program. Okay. Now, um, you know, that’s part of an assessment that I do is, right. So maybe you have an autism diagnosis, but that could mean that you go somewhere and you know, potentially have no accommodations, but you want some help around social skills, Right. And social planning. That’s it. It’s not part of accommodations, um, to, you know, it would be beneficial to go to a school that offers, um, say an autism support program. There’s about 80, some odd schools in the country that have autism support programs and what they are because a lot of people don’t understand this. Um, I think it’s important if I could just to share because some people think they do way more than they do and other people that um, are concerned about stigma. Um, cut them off without really knowing what they do. So students who are in autism support programs, um, they’re typically four year universities and you’re a regular matriculated student and it’s extra support. Um, anywhere typically from 2-5 hours a week. Okay. And um, does that mean you think that’s a lot or not?
FRANCES ( 00:33:27): No. Just that they’re that they’re doing that, that they’re giving that much support?
SCOT( 00:33:31): Well, well, a couple things. One for most of them you pay okay. Um, some you don’t, but um, there is one school in California, I know that, you know, a parent, um, was really grateful and the student obviously to graduated, so they made a large donation. So in that school you don’t play because it’s under it. Yeah, super nice and really helpful. Um, but typically, so someone has five. Our program is five hours of support. You’re probably gonna have like one hour of one on one coaching. Um, which for some people or many people is not enough. So that may need to be supplemented. Right? So I would look and say based on your particular situation Frances, is that enough or you can supplement with a private coach, there’s a variety of things you can do. Then, you know, there’s, um, let’s say again, we’re talking five hours two hours. That is a, um, some sort of skill based workshop, maybe it’s about time management. Um, and then you know some programs, not all but some programs offer some social opportunities and they organize, you know going out to the moon movies are going to a restaurant and some people really like taking advantage of that. Um You know people who are introverts, um people who like that, it’s just you just show up, you pay the $15 to go to the movies. You don’t organize any of it. And there’s some other people that, you know, they may want some of the coaching support from the autism support program but they don’t want that for their social outreach and social life. So um and then some of them have um study halls where not mandatory but people are encouraged to go um There’s not a tutor there but there may be somebody to help people sort of get started with um executive functioning around doing the school work. So those programs are growing um they’re definitely growing around the country and um hopefully I think you know right now um colleges, my understanding is often see it as it costs them money to have to deliver these extra um services. However as more data is available, you know, um it’s really encouraging that in programs um Typically the students that are participating in those programs have higher graduation rates than students that are not, you know higher retention rates. Um They also just from a monetary standpoint of course it’s different but more likely to potentially stay on campus and give the university actually more revenue. Um someone I know who, who does some work um with me um Just also just on his own, you know, helping universities set up some programs, you know, actually talk to them that it’s, it’s not only good for society and it’s good for students, but it’s actually a good business decision as well. So hopefully more, more colleges will see that. Yeah,
FRANCES ( 00:36:33): like my dad said cost benefit analysis, right? You know, spend a couple $100 here and it could increase your revenue by thousands, you know, and trying to figure out what, what it works. Um And it’s interesting you say that some schools have the program, but kids don’t assess it um access it, I like to say, but even if you don’t want to access it, it’s good to go to that school anyway because you know, the school is more open,
SCOT( 00:37:05): Good point. Okay. And I think that’s like not a black and white issue, but um figuring out as part of the process when you’re going to college is how um inclusive does the community, you know, seem to be um Obviously they are making a commitment as a school that they are having a program, you know, it made Gary by professor because a lot of stuff ultimately is what the professor wants to do of, you know, unfortunately, um how they respond to individuals that are their students. Um But I do agree with with you. You know, another thing that I really like for students um That I support is looking at something that again, not part of an I. E. P. Right? But a way for in college um is a first year experience. Um So you know, it’s kind of the way it sounds um meaning that, you know, every school has some sort of an orientation. And those orientations, you know, it could be two days, that could be four days. But some school schools turn that orientation into a much bigger experience, hence first year experience. So um really helping people transition to college a lot is focused on the academics, but some social residential. So maybe you’re in an orientation with a cohort of people from your dorm and there’s a peer leader. And that cheerleader in school they stay with you for for the entire first semester and have like meetings every week, you know, in your dorm. How’s everyone doing things are going? Some you know, team building activities. Um So schools like that often um are very helpful for people who need some extra support. Um Some schools, you know, I always check this as well. Um offer pre orientations early orientations. Some actually do offer them for individuals who are registered with um disability services. And some might be, you know, your interest in community service out to adventure your first gen students. And that’s a really good way for people to, you know, get connected to the school meet a small group of people before they start. You know what as I said that and I’m looking at you about the child. Find it just made me think that what we haven’t said is that the student needs to be the one to go register with disability services or accessibility services. Um The school is not gonna find you. Okay. So when schools tell you stats, um actually, what I often do is, you know, I’ll call up the school and I’ll ask them how many students are registered with a specific disability to get a sense of perhaps um does the school have a lot of experience with students that more than, you know, black and white. This is the accommodation, but more of the gray areas, you know, and um a lot of times people are not aware of that students and families that they have to go register and then to your point earlier, by the time they understand it well then they’ve already lost time. You know, it will take time to then get it going um share the information with your professors and you could have lost a whole semester um or semester super difficult, you know, because you didn’t know about some of the ways you can get support. Okay,
FRANCES ( 00:40:39): So that brings me to, I just realized the time and wow, it was so easy talking to you like it was just
SCOT( 00:40:44): like
FRANCES ( 00:40:46): no it’s fine, it’s I think it’s such valuable information for parents, you know that we know that that there’s stuff out there to help and there’s people out there to help us find the supports we need. So how do people get in touch with you? What do they do, do you do consultations? Like how does the process work?
SCOT( 00:41:04): sure. Um so I actually offer free consultation, so that’s typically like 30 minutes um and typically um no actually started by saying what is it that you want to accomplish and learn from this and I learned more information um and I will never like in a consultation recommend to school to someone because that’s not fair in terms of I don’t know the student enough, it’s not fair to obviously my own work um and then I’ll see if I think um that I’m a good fit or not. And then um you know people again can work with me choose to work with me for a segment such as please help us by doing a college readiness assessment or everything through, you know, the search, the applications, the accommodations, the transition to college. And so um you can contact me um best way is like you can sign up for a um re consultation at my website which is actually um add as an education redefinEdRedefined dot com um and I can give a phone number but it’s probably better, right? Just
FRANCES ( 00:42:15): no just yeah so that we’ll have the links below um to everything. But this was so awesome thank you so much because I even learned a lot like I knew you what you did but getting into those details of how supportive you could be so important I think
SCOT( 00:42:29): oh thanks I really appreciate it and you know I hope I provided advice that’s helpful to people and um to let them know that there is you know a lot of solutions that are out there um And you might need to be educated about it because as you said it doesn’t just you’re not naturally hearing about it
FRANCES ( 00:42:49): right?
SCOT( 00:42:49): Not that much in the detail, the level of detail that you need to know
FRANCES ( 00:42:52): exactly all trying to figure it out. Thank you so much and thank you all for listening to Stress-Free IEPTM. Hopefully I will see you again.
VOICEOVER ( 00:43:04): You’ve been listening to Stress-Free IEPTM with your host Frances Shefter. Remember you do not need to do it all alone. You can reach Frances through ShefterLaw.com where prior episodes are also posted. Thank you for your positive reviews, comments and sharing the show with others through Youtube, Linkedin, Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google podcasts, Stitcher and more
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